237 réponses à ce sujet

[Cataca]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Cataca:

[quote]
Quite. So long as the new spawns don't show up yet, the optimal
tactical arrangement doesn't take them into account. Once they spawn,
the optimized tactical arrangement does.
[/quote]

So... as long as you dont see them you cant make tactics? Fabulous, tacticians of old would be speechless in your wake. Are you quite done with your silly nonissue antics?

[quote]
It's not just Bioware that's doing this. Have you seen how Geralt's
fists apparently cause enemies to spurt blood from random body locations
with each hit? I agree that it's juvenile and pandering, but I don't
let it get my panties in a bunch. It's just a graphic.
[/quote]

Others doing it doesnt make it better. If people dont critisize those things, they will not get adressed, and i dont want to get into the situation where i get less and less story, for the price of bucketloads of blood.


[quote]
What do you have against material that's for children? Does it
challenge your own sense of maturity? I don't get the criticism that
it's "childish." Juvenile, yes, and by that I mean that it's attempting
to satisfy the enjoyment of a relatively younger crowd, but there's
nothing inherently wrong with that.[/quote]

It has an age rating of 18, try again.

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

So... as long as you dont see them you cant make tactics? Fabulous, tacticians of old would be speechless in your wake. Are you quite done with your silly nonissue antics?

I'm detecting hostility. If you can't calm down, step away from the keyboard.

What I said was that spawns reflect a dynamic tactical landscape. That doesn't mean you can't make tactics. It means your tactics are flexible.

Others doing it doesnt make it better. If people dont critisize those things, they will not get adressed, and i dont want to get into the situation where i get less and less story, for the price of bucketloads of blood.

I don't consider DA2's story less than DA:O's story. In fact, I liked DA2's story better.

It has an age rating of 18, try again.

That was meant for Mantaal. My apologies.

randName:

That's the point? That sometimes enemies bug out and thus all should explode? You think that the bug that causes enemies to remain in a dazed dance even if they have died will be magically sorted by having an explode animation? When the proper fall dead animation/doll don't work?

If they are standing around when they shouldn't, this solution would be one of the worst and most comical you could think of.

NOT bugs. Normal death animation. There are normal death animations in DA:O and other games where already dead enemies would take maybe a second or two to fall to the ground. I don't suppose you've noticed this?

[Pandaman102]

Roxlimn wrote...

NOT bugs. Normal death animation. There are normal death animations in DA:O and other games where already dead enemies would take maybe a second or two to fall to the ground. I don't suppose you've noticed this?

Does it matter? If you're targeting an area with an AoE the dead-but-standing enemies don't light up and there's no way to attack them otherwise because you can't target corpses regardless of their vertical status.

[DocDoomII]

Roxlimn wrote...

HallowedWarden:

I just mentioned several reasons above. One is that exploded bodies make it easier to tell at a glance which enemies are still fighting and which enemies are dead. Granted, it's apparently not the sort of graphic that appeals to DA:O fans, but it's serviceable in that function.

Because is so difficult to understand that based on the circle at their feet disappearing and their INTACT bodies laiyng on the ground.

[Roxlimn]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
NOT bugs. Normal death animation. There are normal death animations in DA:O and other games where already dead enemies would take maybe a second or two to fall to the ground. I don't suppose you've noticed this?

Does it matter? If you're targeting an area with an AoE the dead-but-standing enemies don't light up and there's no way to attack them otherwise because you can't target corpses regardless of their vertical status.

Yes, it matters.  Enemy placement doesn't only determine targeting and ability usage.  It also determines where you place your various characters or units.  Enemy status doesn't show when you're just telling Anders to move from one place to another.

Feedback is a critical design issue in a game.  Yes, it matters.

[Pandaman102]

Roxlimn wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
NOT bugs. Normal death animation. There are normal death animations in DA:O and other games where already dead enemies would take maybe a second or two to fall to the ground. I don't suppose you've noticed this?

Does it matter? If you're targeting an area with an AoE the dead-but-standing enemies don't light up and there's no way to attack them otherwise because you can't target corpses regardless of their vertical status.

Yes, it matters.  Enemy placement doesn't only determine targeting and ability usage.  It also determines where you place your various characters or units.  Enemy status doesn't show when you're just telling Anders to move from one place to another.

Feedback is a critical design issue in a game.  Yes, it matters.

That's really more applicable in DA2 where the combat is much more frantic, less so in the rather plodding pace of DA:O, but in that case exploding body parts and blood spraying everywhere is less functional than simply removing the "standing death' animation because it can obscure the situation around any character caught in the midst of exploding body parts, isn't it?

[xkg]

OMG i admire all of you guys - talking to him is pointless. you have bigger chance at crushing China wall with your heads.

5 full Pages in this thread already and only you Roxlimn are defending exploding bodies and pulling some realy non sense arguments.

Clearly majority of peeps here think it doesnt work so stop forcing your opinion on others. Even more when all your arguments are so weak.

"Body explosions" is here to aid me - so i can clearly see who still live on battlefield ?
You realy must be joking. I can not imagine that you realy belive in what you are saying.

Modifié par xkg, 16 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Roxlimn]

Pandaman102:

That depends on what you want in terms of "functional." Ideally, you want every body of every dead enemy to just instantly vanish into thin air like a captured chess piece, but I suspect that most people wouldn't like that. Insta-prone animation doesn't strike me as being significantly more realistic than exploding bodies.

xkg:

If you don't understand my arguments, don't reply.  Please.  Ignore me.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 16 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[xkg]

clearly no one does.

[randName]

xkg wrote...

clearly no one does.

+1

It's rare to see such a special kind of person wandering about.

[DocDoomII]

Bodies in DA2 already vanish instantly, when they don't explode.

Was it really confusing in DA:O when a human took 1 second to fall to the ground?

[Cataca]

I'm detecting hostility. If you can't calm down, step away from the keyboard.

What
I said was that spawns reflect a dynamic tactical landscape. That
doesn't mean you can't make tactics. It means your tactics are
flexible.

Im only acting *slightly* hostile because this is the third time we had this point. Both are static spawn systems, none are flexible or dynamic. Arguing in favour of one or the other should be done objectively, something that you are clearly not.

I don't consider DA2's story less than DA:O's story. In fact, I liked DA2's story better.

And, blame it on how i was brought up with books, i find the story of DA2 unfocused and jumpy. I dont mean to say that the story of DA:O was the best thing ever, because it was not, but i could at least convince myself of the characters motivations, in DA2? Not so much.

[randName]

DocDoomII wrote...

Bodies in DA2 already vanish instantly, when they don't explode.

Was it really confusing in DA:O when a human took 1 second to fall to the ground?

Obviously - and the solution is explosions! 

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[Pandaman102]

Roxlimn wrote...

Pandaman102:

That depends on what you want in terms of "functional." Ideally, you want every body of every dead enemy to just instantly vanish into thin air like a captured chess piece, but I suspect that most people wouldn't like that. Insta-prone animation doesn't strike me as being significantly more realistic than exploding bodies.

I'm really just going by your argument of functional: you say that a dead enemy that remains standing for a few seconds can cause confusion for anyone who wants to shift their companions about the battlefield; conversely exploding body parts obscures the area immediately around it, making it difficult to sight enemies or target companions inside. Both of these issues are most inconvenient when combat is paused, but similarly both issues are negated simply by mousing around the area/over the dead enemies and looking for a reaction.

Honestly I can't comment too much on "insta-prone animations" since I don't go about hitting people with swords or jabbing them with knives, but it's fairly common for people to lose strength and collapse after suffering traumatic injuries. I would argue that if (and that's a big if, since those really aren't flashy enough to entertain people who care about that) the animation was done properly it's possible to create realistic near-instant prone animations, but unless you're playing a game with grenade-tipped hammers or somesuch it's impossible to create realistic exploding animations.

[Frumyfrenzy]

carokube wrote...

 Just thought about this while I was on my second play through and just did the opening scene in Bartrand's mansion for Varric's Family Matters quest.

Maybe enemies are so explody and gory because the whole play through is kind of through the eyes of Varric. The unrealistic aspect of it never bothered me personally, but I know it did some people, and now, thinking of it this way, it bothers me even less.

Maybe there are more quirks of the game that when, applied under this light, make you think twice about them? I know I'm going to be keeping an eye out for them as I continue my game.

I'd love your thoughts on this. 

I dont think enemies explode because Varric exaggerates and I don't think Bioware included exploding enemies (hit by an arrow or stabbed by a dagger!) to emphasize Varric's exaggerated storytelling. That's what the prologue is for, before he gets interrupted by Cassandra. Even if it was a conscious design decision to emphasize the exaggerated storytelling by including exploding enemies, for my tastes, it would not be a very good one.  

I have nothing against some exploding enemies if the circumstances are right (grenades, certain spells like Walking Bomb or combinations like Crushing Prison + Shattering) , but they can and will explode by anything that hits them - like balloons that get popped by a needle. Combine this with endless waves of quickly dying enemies and it is just too much for some of us, including me. Popping baloons all around you, no matter what weapon you use.

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

Im only acting *slightly* hostile because this is the third time we had this point. Both are static spawn systems, none are flexible or dynamic. Arguing in favour of one or the other should be done objectively, something that you are clearly not.

Alright. One is an "always on" spawn system. The other is a time-based spawn system. The spawn system in DA:O can be taken with relatively static tactics. Time-based spawns require more complex tactics.

And, blame it on how i was brought up with books, i find the story of DA2 unfocused and jumpy. I dont mean to say that the story of DA:O was the best thing ever, because it was not, but i could at least convince myself of the characters motivations, in DA2? Not so much.

I was brought up on books as well. I love all the old classics, even the Russian ones. Well, maybe not the American classics. Hemmingway can get morose. I don't think either of the games was a literary classic, but I like the narrative structure in DA2 better. Neither one was super-fantastic as far as character writing was concerned. Aveline was the character I liked best in both games. The DA:O characters were generally... ...not really that interesting.

DocDoomII:

If you want to advocate instant vanishing as a superior death mechanic to giblets, be my guest.

[Roxlimn]

Pandaman102 wrote...
I'm really just going by your argument of functional: you say that a dead enemy that remains standing for a few seconds can cause confusion for anyone who wants to shift their companions about the battlefield; conversely exploding body parts obscures the area immediately around it, making it difficult to sight enemies or target companions inside. Both of these issues are most inconvenient when combat is paused, but similarly both issues are negated simply by mousing around the area/over the dead enemies and looking for a reaction.

Honestly I can't comment too much on "insta-prone animations" since I don't go about hitting people with swords or jabbing them with knives, but it's fairly common for people to lose strength and collapse after suffering traumatic injuries. I would argue that if (and that's a big if, since those really aren't flashy enough to entertain people who care about that) the animation was done properly it's possible to create realistic near-instant prone animations, but unless you're playing a game with grenade-tipped hammers or somesuch it's impossible to create realistic exploding animations.

I'd counter by saying that just as the circles and targeting infomation informs us of which enemies are which, it also solves the issue of enemies being obscured by giblets.  Regardless of how much an enemy is obscured, you can always target it because the info and the circles show.

Body explosion is a more convenient feedback for death rather than animations where dead enemies can still be standing.

I don't know whether insta-prone enemies would be acceptable.   I suspect it'd get just as much flak, if not more.

[Sabriana]

So, can we blame Varric then for the ever-present bodies in a certain companion's living quarters? Is he simply forgetting to change the city/landscape (incl. the never changing NPC's, and I mean nothing changes there, not their stance, their look, their clothes, nothing) in his descriptions? Is that the reason for generic dungeon # 345?

He's not a fashion plate, so the companion look the same through 10..erm... I mean 7 years time? Mage Hawke is untouchable because he forgets that she shouldn't be. Or maybe he finds it unimportant? Mobwaves and Ninja parachuters are just for kicks, so he can embellish his/Hawke's battle prowess?

Poor Varric. Now you're the scape-goat.

[DocDoomII]

Roxlimn wrote...

DocDoomII:

If you want to advocate instant vanishing as a superior death mechanic to giblets, be my guest.

wasn't

I was only promoting a mod that many PC player will find interesting.


Oh how I hope that someone will make a mod like this one  for DA2 http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=240

EDIT:
Seems it already exist, just missed till now http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=2594

Modifié par DocDoomII, 16 avril 2011 - 10:25 .

[DraCZeQQ]

Sabriana wrote...

So, can we blame Varric then for the ever-present bodies in a certain companion's living quarters? Is he simply forgetting to change the city/landscape (incl. the never changing NPC's, and I mean nothing changes there, not their stance, their look, their clothes, nothing) in his descriptions? Is that the reason for generic dungeon # 345?

He's not a fashion plate, so the companion look the same through 10..erm... I mean 7 years time? Mage Hawke is untouchable because he forgets that she shouldn't be. Or maybe he finds it unimportant? Mobwaves and Ninja parachuters are just for kicks, so he can embellish his/Hawke's battle prowess?

Poor Varric. Now you're the scape-goat.

Cassandra: Tell me about ...
Varric: So Hawke, me, Merrill and Fenris entered this mansion. Well im too lazy to describe it, so lets say it looks the same like the last one, BUT there were these dead bodies on the ground! Remember this, I wont describe the house again ... so well we killed this guy and he exploded!
Cassandra: Bullsh*t! This is not what happened!
Varric: Ok ok he didnt explode, but he was not the body that was there before, so I had empathise the difference
Cassandra: Ok, go on I can live with exploding bodies if it makes you happy ...

Varric: So then we go shopping ...
Cassandra: And everyone looked the same?
Varric: Jezus, i dont remember how anyone looked, so yea w/e they looked the same, it does not matter ...
Cassandra: Ok, so what did you bought?
Varric: Well nothing, we got tons of junk to sale ...
Cassandra: Junk?
Varric: Cmon women, im not describing every trinket we found, no one wanted to wear it, plain junk ...

[Mantaal]

Roxlimn wrote...

If its an Shooter ok, if its Hollywood ok. But why the hell in a Fantasy RPG? Its a dumb thing to move in. And it worked for years without it. It just take away the immersion and the mature Gameplay feeling. Exploding bodys and flying Platemail Warriors swinging twohanded Swords with one hand is just Childisch.

What do you have against material that's for children? Does it challenge your own sense of maturity? I don't get the criticism that it's "childish." Juvenile, yes, and by that I mean that it's attempting to satisfy the enjoyment of a relatively younger crowd, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Rated 18 in Germany and Rated M from ESRB maybe?
Whats the point making a Childish Combatsystem for the younger crowd if they are not allowed to play them? 

It doesnt challenge anything to me. Its just plain simple Childish.

Modifié par Mantaal, 16 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[Roxlimn]

Mantaal:

"Childish" doesn't say anything. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that exaggerated actions and gore is only for the below-18 crowd? Market analysis of other games seems to indicate otherwise. For instance, God of War which specializes in just the things you describe, was explicitly targeted at the 18-35 male demographic.

[Pandaman102]

Roxlimn wrote...

I'd counter by saying that just as the circles and targeting infomation informs us of which enemies are which, it also solves the issue of enemies being obscured by giblets.  Regardless of how much an enemy is obscured, you can always target it because the info and the circles show.

Right, which is why I said "Both of these issues are most inconvenient when combat is paused, but similarly both issues are negated simply by mousing around the area/over the dead enemies and looking for a reaction." You argued functionality, I'm just pointing out that neither DA:O or DA2's death animations are any better than each other.

Roxlimn wrote...
Body explosion is a more convenient feedback for death rather than animations where dead enemies can still be standing.

I don't know whether insta-prone enemies would be acceptable.   I suspect it'd get just as much flak, if not more.

Which isn't what I'm advocating. I'm saying that currently neither system are ideal, but it's possible to make "body drop" style of death animations more realistic while keeping the aforementioned functionality in mind, but it's impossible to make "exploding giblets" style of death animation realistic even if you do find a way to make it functional.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 16 avril 2011 - 10:32 .

[Roxlimn]

Pandaman102:

It's already functional. You're informed obviously when the enemy dies, and it disappears after. In that sense, it's an effective feedback device over just standing animation.

Which isn't what I'm advocating. I'm saying that currently neither system are ideal, but it's possible to make "body drop" style of death animations more realistic while keeping the aforementioned functionality in mind, but it's impossible to make "exploding giblets" style of death animation realistic even if you do find a way to make it functional.

The only way to make it equivalently instant to explosion is to make the animation transition from standing to prone similarly brisk in every instance of death, and there's no way to make that more realistic than bodies exploding.

[Tirigon]

carokube wrote...

 Just thought about this while I was on my second play through and just did the opening scene in Bartrand's mansion for Varric's Family Matters quest.

Maybe enemies are so explody and gory because the whole play through is kind of through the eyes of Varric. The unrealistic aspect of it never bothered me personally, but I know it did some people, and now, thinking of it this way, it bothers me even less.

Maybe there are more quirks of the game that when, applied under this light, make you think twice about them? I know I'm going to be keeping an eye out for them as I continue my game.

I'd love your thoughts on this. 

In short:

A WIZARD DID IT!!!!   is out of fashion now, from nowon it´s "THE NARRATOR WAS EXAGGERATING!!!"


Somehow,I preferred the wizard:(