237 réponses à ce sujet

[SoR82]

Roxlimn wrote...

Supreez:

To be honest, I don't think that realism is a strong aspect of DA2. It's not a strong aspect of DA:O, given how ridiculously wooden their combat animations were. In some ways, that made me feel like DA:O was some cut-rate production. I mean, didn't they even have the money to motion capture credible martial artists? Tsk.

Exploding enemies is more consistent with DA2's hyperkinetic combat sensibility, and it even ties into the ridiculously over-the-top story. I mean, what we have here is essentially human-sized people using small sharp sticks to kill dinosaur-like and dinosaur-sized creatures. If that isn't silly-exaggerated, I don't know what is. Fenris even wields a ridiculously large sword. He could be Cloud.

Human sized people fighting dragons makes sense within the confines of the Dragon Age World.

Do you seriously believe people imploding when stabbed makes sense in the same sense?

Im sorry to say but this argument is fatally flawed.

[Roxlimn]

SoR82:

Your argument is dependent on what the properties of a Dragon Age World is. If you say "It's DAO," then what you're actually saying is that DA2 is not DAO and that it's "unrealistic" because it's a game with a different presentation.

Being able to kill a dragon with what amounts to a small metal toothpick wielded by a small creature is inherently unrealistic and inconsistent. This means that the Dragon Age World, whatever it is, is inherently unrealistic and inconsistent. Pointing out another incidence of such doesn't mean much.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SoR82 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Supreez:

To be honest, I don't think that realism is a strong aspect of DA2. It's not a strong aspect of DA:O, given how ridiculously wooden their combat animations were. In some ways, that made me feel like DA:O was some cut-rate production. I mean, didn't they even have the money to motion capture credible martial artists? Tsk.

Exploding enemies is more consistent with DA2's hyperkinetic combat sensibility, and it even ties into the ridiculously over-the-top story. I mean, what we have here is essentially human-sized people using small sharp sticks to kill dinosaur-like and dinosaur-sized creatures. If that isn't silly-exaggerated, I don't know what is. Fenris even wields a ridiculously large sword. He could be Cloud.

Human sized people fighting dragons makes sense within the confines of the Dragon Age World.

Do you seriously believe people imploding when stabbed makes sense in the same sense?

Im sorry to say but this argument is fatally flawed.

And yet you run into that same fallacy all the time -- the idea that once you've introduced even one "unreal" / fantastic element into a setting, all limits are off and everything is acceptable and it's a free-for-all. 

To give another example, regarding a certain science fiction setting -- "The game has giant walking tanks, particle weapons, FTL spaceships, clones, and a dozen other things, and you're complaining because the weapon ranges don't make sense and the depicted socioeconomic system won't work?"  And the answer is yes, because the "science fiction" elements are the "what-ifs" of the setting, whereas the other two are just things that the creators failed to do their homework on and failed at depicting with... well, see my sig.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 19 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Roxlimn wrote...

SoR82:

Your argument is dependent on what the properties of a Dragon Age World is. If you say "It's DAO," then what you're actually saying is that DA2 is not DAO and that it's "unrealistic" because it's a game with a different presentation.

Being able to kill a dragon with what amounts to a small metal toothpick wielded by a small creature is inherently unrealistic and inconsistent. This means that the Dragon Age World, whatever it is, is inherently unrealistic and inconsistent. Pointing out another incidence of such doesn't mean much.

Given a knife with a blade the length of a toothpick and easily achievable sharpness, you could kill a person. 

[Roxlimn]

Killjoy Cutter:

1. Your commentary on the "fallacy" isn't correct. For one thing, it's not a fallacy. For another, I'm fairly sure that the developers of Bioware were absolutely aware of what they were doing when they implemented exploding bodies as part of combat graphics. It's not just something they overlooked.

2. Give that knife to a 2 year old sized person, set him up against an armored tiger, and let's see him do it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Roxlimn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter:

1. Your commentary on the "fallacy" isn't correct. For one thing, it's not a fallacy. For another, I'm fairly sure that the developers of Bioware were absolutely aware of what they were doing when they implemented exploding bodies as part of combat graphics. It's not just something they overlooked.

2. Give that knife to a 2 year old sized person, set him up against an armored tiger, and let's see him do it.

1.  For anyone who wants to create solid, internally consistent, and engaging fictional settings, it is absolutely a fallacy that even the smallest fantastic element opens the floodgates to any and all fantastic elements.  The difference between reality and fiction, is that fiction needs to make sense.  And yet for some reason, people seem to think that once you have so much as a torch-lighting spell or an FTL drive, it's time for flying castles, psionic powers, and space dragons.

2.  A skilled swordsman is not in any way comparable to a 2-year-old no matter what scale you're trying to establish. 

[Roxlimn]

1. I see nothing wrong with a setting that has torch-lighting spells, flying castles, psionic powers, and space dragons. In fact, the Forgotten Realms is just such a setting, and I like it just fine.

2. Size, not skill. If you want to talk about realism, there's a reason why a lone swordsman is at a distinct disadvantage against a mounted opponent, and that's a relatively even size compared to tangling with a dragon.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Roxlimn wrote...

1. I see nothing wrong with a setting that has torch-lighting spells, flying castles, psionic powers, and space dragons. In fact, the Forgotten Realms is just such a setting, and I like it just fine.

2. Size, not skill. If you want to talk about realism, there's a reason why a lone swordsman is at a distinct disadvantage against a mounted opponent, and that's a relatively even size compared to tangling with a dragon.

1.  It's not what's wrong with that one setting -- it's the fallacy that for any setting which features even one of those elements, all other fantastic elements are automatically valid and acceptable.  To use the Dragon Age setting as an example, normal mortal magic simply does not allow for the raising of the dead -- there's a limit to what's actually in the setting, even though it's a classic D&Dism that magic allows raising of the dead.


2.  Countless numbers of horses were killed by men on foot in the millenia of mounted combat. 

[Roxlimn]

1. Alright. Show me a Codex entry that says that exploding bodies is inconsistent with Dragon Age lore.

2. Not the point.

[Nerdage]

Yay! The thread's been bumped and I get to respond to the guy who called me dense!

xkg wrote...

ok ill rewrite it for YOU if you pretend to be so dense so you cant understand it :

Yes, so DAO was Spiritual successor to BG. Was there exploding bodies in DAO everytime after simple attack,  dagger stab, arrow hit, shield bash ... besides rare cases like walking bomb where it was more logic

"You still get to replace about half a dozen items on your compaions (not to mention all of their stats and abilities), I'm not sure why that's not enough"

You can go play shooter dont hesitate. you still get to replace weapons if you like.
For me it isnt enough thats why i am playing RPG games.

" open maps with more focused ones "

do you mean generic copy-paste dungeon#323 ?
and whole Kirkwall is so much exciting full of life.
Yes all maps are so much more "focused now".

What's logical about magic? While we're at things making sense, how come you can heal a dozen or more arrow wounds by just drinking a single potion? Or, in the case of DAO - the beakon of all things good in a game - drinking a poultice? Then there's the way combat actually works; two opponents just hacking at eachother until one of them drops, making little to no attempt to defend themselves, logical? And taunt, how does that ability make any sort of logical sense? Of all the things that didn't make sense in both DA2 and DAO, suddenly this is a problem? If you're willing to overlook all the other illogical things in both Dragon Ages they there's no reason not to overlook this, and if you can't overlook those other things why are you even playing this game?

The only reason you're playing an RPG is so you can decide how your companions dress? Not how they fight, what abilities and attributes they have, or even how they develop as characters, but how they dress? Not all RPGs even have companions, often when they do it's just some NPC that follows you around, the idea that Bioware deciding you no longer get to tell your companions what clothes to wear has single handedly turned Dragon Age into a shooter (?) is childish.

Clearly when I said the maps are focued I wasn't referring to the copied zones and you know it, I meant the maps aren't sandboxes to wonder around in, they have a start, an end and some paths in between. Focused! It was the same in Origins, and - once again - just because Dragon Age inherits from Baldur's Gate that doesn't mean it's got to take everything from it.

Modifié par nerdage, 19 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I think what he means is that it ruins his suspension of belief because it's too cartoony. Most of the stuff you mentioned I agree is very unrealistic and Itry to avoid as much as possible but at least it doesn't make you swear out loud. Someone mentioned a mod that removes it though, so PC gamers at least should be able to shutup. I agree though it really seems like they had no idea what they were doing and put it in after they saw some games with gibbing effects.

[zeejay21]

What? Doesn't exploding bodies excite you? It's not everyday you see enemies in games explodes from a cut.

[The Angry One]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'll add my recomendation for Tactics:Ogre.Final Fantasy Tactics War of the Lions also well worth a look.

Although FFT is a great game, it's ironic in that Ramza is possibly the one hero who is even dumber than Hawke.

[the_one_54321]

I expect not realism, but only internal consistency in games. Which DAII violates in spades.

[Tirigon]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Although FFT is a great game, it's ironic in that Ramza is possibly the one hero who is even dumber than Hawke.

How's Hawke dumb? Unlucky, you can say, but there are many ways to play and some are not dumb at all IMO.

He was dumb to go to Kirkwall to start with, and even dumber not to leave when it turned out the heritage was gone.

[The Angry One]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Although FFT is a great game, it's ironic in that Ramza is possibly the one hero who is even dumber than Hawke.

How's Hawke dumb? Unlucky, you can say, but there are many ways to play and some are not dumb at all IMO.

Not dumb as in personally stupid, but you could say plot dumb.
There's only so many times a character can be played like a fiddle before you're yelling "WAKE UP!" at the screen.

[addiction21]

Tirigon wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Although FFT is a great game, it's ironic in that Ramza is possibly the one hero who is even dumber than Hawke.

How's Hawke dumb? Unlucky, you can say, but there are many ways to play and some are not dumb at all IMO.

He was dumb to go to Kirkwall to start with, and even dumber not to leave when it turned out the heritage was gone.

How is it stupid? In both cases they both have lost everything they ever knew. Their entire world image has been fliped upside down.

Its like being born as a 30 year old. Everything you knew is gone or twisted and all you can do is push on as best as you can.

Edit: Plot dumb is a good term but even then...

Modifié par addiction21, 19 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[22nd MadJack]

I have learnt to either put it down to Varric's "Embellishments".

or

Combat actually happens in a 'Pocket Dimension', where the laws of mass, gravity and absurdity are less constrictive to bodily rupture.  Similarly Dwarves are capable of backflips, nobody bothers to parry, dodge or block, and combatants gesticulate wildly while clubbing each other over the head with cartoon weaponry.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 19 avril 2011 - 10:43 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Roxlimn wrote...
1. Alright. Show me a Codex entry that says that exploding bodies is inconsistent with Dragon Age lore.

Show us a codex entry that explains it, in a world in which mundane events had appeared to operate by laws of physics that we would be familiar with.

[the_one_54321]

The game treats death by various objects and methods differently based on combat or cinematics. It professes certain physics parallels and then violates them. That is internal inconsistency.

[MOTpoetryION]

Mecher3k wrote...

MOTpoetryION, considered yourself owned.

 Your too funny , Why would i think im owned ?    .  When i clearly said  " i  was Confused ". "Asking  what new group of fans/people were were trying/hoping to appeal to ?"   "Asking for any links to interveiws or any such info ?"  Its pretty clear  that i have not read anything concerning their reasons.  So Im very sorry  this wasnt totaly obvious for you to grasp or understand .  And forgive me again  i usually always make sure i have at least a few" IMHO" in my threads. Just to make it clear that this is now i feel or my thoughts.  And  Make it clear that these are not facts .  Oh wait there are 3 IMHO in there soo...  I know I should of put  maybe five or eight IMHO 's  in there so it was easyer for you . My bad 

But  you think i should consider myself owned ? 
I think not . But hey i consider you as being stoned, 
if that helps any.  But im even more confused of why i should feel owned?

 I'm Just un-informed and dont read the news much and also ,i'm really bad at picking keywords when using search engines  .   And IMHO i still think and stand by my feeling .  IMHO the DAY and NIGHT cycles and weather in the WITCHER  are awsome. And would IMHO make the DA2 and even DAO so much better.   Instead of the new way  IMHO  of  a" God button" (let there be light) click ... and there was Light.  Thats  just lazy and weak IMHO.
 
i will go read the link now and thanks XKG for the link.

[Roxlimn]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
1. Alright. Show me a Codex entry that says that exploding bodies is inconsistent with Dragon Age lore.

Show us a codex entry that explains it, in a world in which mundane events had appeared to operate by laws of physics that we would be familiar with.

Giant spiders, Ogres, and Dragons are creatures are that not possible with realistic laws of physics.

Let's make one thing clear.  I am not claiming that it's unrealistic or that it's inconsistent with lore.  YOU are.  Therefore, the onus is on you to prove your point.  I'm just saying that your stance is insupportable.

[Mecher3k]

Roxlimn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
1. Alright. Show me a Codex entry that says that exploding bodies is inconsistent with Dragon Age lore.

Show us a codex entry that explains it, in a world in which mundane events had appeared to operate by laws of physics that we would be familiar with.

Giant spiders, Ogres, and Dragons are creatures are that not possible with realistic laws of physics.

Let's make one thing clear.  I am not claiming that it's unrealistic or that it's inconsistent with lore.  YOU are.  Therefore, the onus is on you to prove your point.  I'm just saying that your stance is insupportable.

LOL QUE?

There is nothing stoping ogres or dragons from being real. Possibly spiders but enough oxygen in the atmosphere and pressure would solve that.

FBW.