38 réponses à ce sujet

[kamal_]

It was being discussed in the Community Project thread, but the community project is doing a SoZ style city. So the discussion is good, but off topic.

What makes for a good city/town in NWN1/2?

[Arkalezth]

I agree, lesbian vampires in bikinis.

Other than that, it depends, I don't think there's a perfect city/town. Everything has its pros and cons, for example, shops closing at night add to realism, but gameplay wise, it can be a pain waiting until it opens again.

A small village probably should have only minimum buildings: a couple shops, a tavern, maybe a church, etc. A big city should have many unusable buildings, only there for the ambient. It should have wandering people too, not only vendors and quest giving NPCs.

I don't know what else to say, any specific question?

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Just to repeat my own preference, I find towns that only have the minimum buildings and people required for primary plot to be bland and tasteless. Like tepid water. And they definitely seem unpolished to me and usually make me wonder what else did the modder not bother to polish. I think that a small amount of ambience should be done (people standing around chatting at the least.) Ambience is difficult to do a lot of but fairly easy to do a little of. There is a point of diminishing returns though. The danger is that it can become addictive to the modder. You start with "just some people standing around", and then you think, "well maybe at night there should be fewer people", and then "maybe the daytime people should walk home at night", and then "maybe some people should take out torches at night", and then "maybe certain merchants should behave differently", and then ... ad infinitum. Before you know it you have sunk a significant amount of time animating a world that no player will really appreciate very much because they are just passing through.

I also don't think it makes sense that plot characters are always named and others are always unnamed. How would you know a person's name without first speaking with them? There is neither spell nor app for that. So I prefer everyone remain named generically until spoken to. There should be other hints given as to who is significant and who is not, rather than name.

Buildings that are significant should have signs and probably map points. Not all buildings that are insignificant should be static. Allow people to explore a bit and find minor items or even have minor quests if they want to spend their time that way. Like ambience exploration ability gives the town more depth and color.

If you provide different things that happen at night than during the day then some other means of altering the time should be available, such as sleeping 8 hours at an inn or waiting some period of time like MotB does.

Regards

[Eguintir Eligard]

heaven help me we are back to the "what makes a good x" threads again.

let me jumps start the next few:
how do you make a good campaign?
how do you make a good area?
how do you make a good conversation?
how do you make a good noose for everyone after all these threads

ps my vampires dont wear tops

[kamal_]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

heaven help me we are back to the "what makes a good x" threads again.

let me jumps start the next few:
how do you make a good campaign?
how do you make a good area?
how do you make a good conversation?
how do you make a good noose for everyone after all these threads

ps my vampires dont wear tops

Not everyone makes awesome everything like you. There are people just starting out who would find this discussion useful.

[kamal_]

Arkalezth wrote...
I don't know what else to say, any specific question?

I purposely made the question open ended to encourage discussion on anything people felt important.

[kevL]

i'd say there's two methods:

1) keep it to the point, quick in quick out (most doors non-interactive, a few generic NPCs wandering about)
2) make it like a real village/town/city, with all sorts of disparate stuff happening.

As mentioned, map points required ..

[M. Rieder]

The third dimension is very important to me. When I enter a town, or any area for that matter, and it is completely flat, it really hurts the immersion factor. I like towns that have ruts in the road, little hillocks, perhaps a large manor house on a high place, things like that.

[rjshae]

I like each building in a town to have a purpose; one that maintains the economic vitality of the community in some manner. Many games create a set of businesses that cater solely to the needs of the adventurer, with various specialties. But this isn't the way most towns operate. Instead, I like to see a business that has a purpose, but also happens to provide some goods needed by the adventurer. An example of this is the carpenter. Most of the carpenter's workshop should be for the manufacture of furniture, barrels, wheels, carts, and so forth. But they could also make shields, bows, staves, and sell rare types of wood that may be useful in crafting.

Most towns should probably have a mill, bakery, butcher, potter, weaver, carpenter, smithy, leather worker, brewer, church, store room, a favorite pub and a commons area. There might also be a poor house, an orphanage, manor house, stocks, grainery, guard house and post house. (A house or two may be burned down or in the process of being built.) Many shops double as homes, so members of the family will be present, along with an apprentice or two. They would also be highly unlikely to see significant magic items without the aid of a wizard. So that could be primary industry of the town mage: helping shops make or identify magic items.

In every building I like to include the standard accoutrements of living. It should have access to a loo of some type. (I like to use the unopenable door with flies buzzing around outside and the sound of dripping water.) There should also be a kitchen area, a main fireplace with plenty of wood, various light sources, plus lots of seats and containers.

Modifié par rjshae, 15 avril 2011 - 10:16 .

[WyrinDnjargo]

I haven't seen a city in NWN that felt bustling and alive. Or any cRPG for that matter. Maybe the BG series, specifically Athkatla comes closest. The sheer amount fo work to make something really feel alive and dynamic is tremedous. Westgate and Subtelty of Thay 2 came close, but still...

Personally, I'd say the best realisation of a city in NWN2 for me now would be to make the city an overland map. Shops etc would be locations, encounters would be guards/thugs/quests. No pretentions about recreating the city - just about navigating it as a whole

[Shaun the Crazy One]

I agree with KelL, in building a city there is a trade off between realism and practicality for the player. Sure what rjshae suggested about a lot of shops which specialize in a specific trade is realistic, that means alot of running around for the player every time they want to trade gear, which means you'll be spending alot of time on a load screen. On that same note it sometimes better to make most of you merchants outdoor vendors to avoid load screens, especially since the city itself will probably be a very large outdoor area and take a long time to load. Realism vs. practicality.

Then there is Ambiance. Ambiance is almost a kinda art in that it's never finished, only abandoned. There are so many ways you can add ambiance to your city it would never be practical to include them all. Here's just a few examples:
-Have a few unimportant NPCs just stand around talking through seek strings, talking about politics, local gossip, or recent events (like the two guards in Port Last in the OC).
-Set a few sets of waypoints that spawn a NPC who leaves their house goes to market and preforms some chores on daily basis. Perhaps a torch lighter who lights all the torches in town at dusk and extinguishes them at dawn (like in the King's Festival, Kaldor's mod).
-Make some local gossips (Like the ones in DA) who have a large collection of conversations that change based on recent events.
-Outdoor merchants should make a sales to the PCs as they pass by.
-Carefully placed sounds add alot of ambiance

Then of course there's interior areas. Making it so that the player can enter every building in the city means you'll need alot of interior areas. This one occasion where there is no shame in using the same area or prefab multiple times, alot of big name RPGs did this too (like BG and DA). Also keep in mind how much this adds to you file size. Have several houses be the same area where you just spawn a different set of NPCs and dynamic placeables depending on which house the PC entered might be a good approach. It's also preferable to have some purpose to those interior areas you made. Make them part of a side quest or make thieving section to you game.

At the end of the day though, there's only so much time you can put into it, so it best not to focus on any one aspect.

EDIT: It was Kaldor who made King's Festival not PJ, sorry about that

Modifié par Shaun the Crazy One, 18 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Shaun the Crazy One]

WyrinDnjargo wrote...
Personally, I'd say the best realisation of a city in NWN2 for me now would be to make the city an overland map. Shops etc would be locations, encounters would be guards/thugs/quests. No pretentions about recreating the city - just about navigating it as a whole

That's a very intersting idea.  I whould love to see some one try to implement that, I think it could make for some very cool side quests and gameplay.

[kamal_]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

WyrinDnjargo wrote...
Personally, I'd say the best realisation of a city in NWN2 for me now would be to make the city an overland map. Shops etc would be locations, encounters would be guards/thugs/quests. No pretentions about recreating the city - just about navigating it as a whole

That's a very intersting idea.  I whould love to see some one try to implement that, I think it could make for some very cool side quests and gameplay.

I know someone who is (not me).

[Shaughn78]

I have kicked around that very idea of a OLM for a city. There is just no practicial way to create a large city with lots of atmosphere and NPCs and that other junk. By using the olm you can create that large sprawling city, points of interest can be marked and others can be found as you explore. The spots that are visted can be compact areas full of life, giving the impression that the city is that busy everywhere. This will save the builder from having to fill every inch of the city with life and not force a player to endure, while a visual interesting, large and full areas with little or no practical/plot relevent material.

The biggest concern I see with the olm map city could be creating a functional layout. Since there will be no camera rotation the player could get lost behind buildings and allies. A very creative builder with a sharp eye would be needed. The street layouts would need to be done so they don't hide areas. I image some optical illusion stuff would need to be created as well, with the map actually being elevated towards the back so the front buildings don't block the view of the rear buildings and streets.

So, there is your challange community and I look forward to seeing it in the prefab downloads soon.

[kamal_]

I'd lock an OLM camera more overhead and thus less needing of layout creativity. Also I would make the enterable buildings usable directly, so no clicking on teeny tiny little doors.

[kevL]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

I agree with KelL, in building a city there is a trade off between realism and practicality for the player. Sure what rjshae suggested about a lot of shops which specialize in a specific trade is realistic, that means alot of running around for the player every time they want to trade gear, which means you'll be spending alot of time on a load screen. On that same note it sometimes better to make most of you merchants outdoor vendors to avoid load screens, especially since the city itself will probably be a very large outdoor area and take a long time to load. Realism vs. practicality.

yes. That's what I meant, Shaun. tk you

We've all been in those big big towns where you run forever past closed door after closed door. So, Either make the town smaller, or make it visually gorgeous, to keep the players interested while on their way to get a loaf of bread, say. On a meta-level this should account for the fact some designers can create cities of Art (but don't have time to do all those niceties). ideally the two ought come together.

.. On the other hand, a town that may not look so great yet has indepth activity, becomes like a puzzle in itself - more of an obstacle on the PC's path to the Quest finale.


ps. the overland map for a city has an irony that appeals ........

[PJ156]

My personal preference is for smaller towns, certainly when I am building. Having smaller more focused areas in the town allows the ambience you do put in really count IMO. An overland city appeals to me for that reason.

I like cities to be dirty and lived in and with height map difference to keep up the interest as MR said earlier. I like there to be a bit of exploring to them. It does not have to be much but a couple of streets to walk down is nice.

Ambience is really hard to get right, which makes smaller areas better; you can crowd them more easily and make each npc more real without adding too much work.. For me it is better that everybody has a little something to say or a plot to develop. In a large area that ican be tedious to build and to play IMO.

I focused my first town on the market sqaure. Everything outside that was eye candy but you did not need to go there. I went too large in the next one I did and lost that focus. I think that was a mistake.

I agree that shops should be outdoors to make the shopping experience less painful. It makes the nights a bit odd though with shop keepers atanding to attention waiting for the PC at midnight.

What I personally HATE! HATE! HATE! is usable barrels and, EVEN WORSE, chests lining the streets with little bit of gold in them. I am also not a fan of the crates placeables. Good on docks yes, but in the street no. In any real city they would be gone as soon as it got dark. Broken ones would be on someones fire or perhaps lived in.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 19 avril 2011 - 09:31 .

[Arkalezth]

I'd say that communications between important buildings are sometimes more important than the size of the city. For example, in The Last Days of the Raven (it's wasn't that bad IMO), there's a temple in the southwest corner, but you need to go first to the north in order to get the road to it. It's not the most tedious thing I've seen in this game, but a little road leading to it from the south would have been nice. Roof climbing (as in Crimmor) is another option, but not every character should be able to do that.

I agree about the chest/barrels/whatever in the middle of the street, with a cheap gem or a potion inside. That's boring. Same for houses with nothing interesting inside, other than a bit of loot. I remember a few of them in Path of Evil.

And yes, I'd like an OM city too.

[MokahTGS]

 I do not believe a city could be built well with the OM interface, because you loose what is important to the city:  Closeness.

Cites are buildings on top of each other.  People right next door...

www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/boston/beaconHillAcornStreet.jpg

http://img80.imagesh...2034/045og8.jpg

http://www.travelweb...City-Street.jpg

http://image1.master...0-01716945n.jpg

http://www.letsgo-eu...streets_800.JPG

http://images.nation...170_600x450.jpg

The OM camera would loose the city feel...you have to have things hanging over you to make a good city.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 19 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[Haplose]

WyrinDnjargo wrote...

I haven't seen a city in NWN that felt bustling and alive. Or any cRPG for that matter. Maybe the BG series, specifically Athkatla comes closest. The sheer amount fo work to make something really feel alive and dynamic is tremedous. Westgate and Subtelty of Thay 2 came close, but still...

Actually I think The Witcher was the best cRPG in this aspect so far. People moving trough steets all the time, stopping to hide from the rain under nearby rooftops when it fell. Some of these random folks could even have something interesting to say or a mini-quest (but you never knew, as the description was pretty much the same). There were also small animals (cats, birds) running away as you came near. The city was busling with life... Also exploration could be interesting, you could visit more then quest-specific locations.

I think it's very important that there are lots of people in a city. Not just quest-givers, but all kinds of common folks. And they all have their own lives. They are unlikely to be rooted to one place, but rather follow a daily schedule.

Out of NWN2 modules I played so far, I think the town in Path of Evil had the most atmosphere. Lots of quests, lots of opposing factions with their own agendas... or just envious merchants trading blows. This was really good. But still not enough random people, not enough movement, not quite enough ambience.

Modifié par Haplose, 20 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Morbane]

I think this thread - although like eguinter said stereotypical "what if".... but I do not think that. The community needs to have a hash out on general topics just to see what may be new and such. A lively city may not be full of people running around but of course it makes a difference if there is the image of life and activity. In building The Master of Infinity  there are not much in the way of cities but there are outposts and citadels all in a diverse time line of occupied to long abandoned. i figured that if achieving the idyllic city was so difficult to model why not develop a story that does not depend on that factor. Granted my Module is off beat and not faerun at all, there are no familiar names etc. I do borrow the mythos and the spell system but I still find my self trying to fill the gaps to bring action to the static - like people walking around and good sound placements. I decided to do the "name the plot peeps" and the rest are just a stencil of the norm. but i think it adds a bit of subtle humor to knowing these strange names without being introduced first - having said that I might look at some of Kaldor's stuff on having to be introduced first before names show - that seems like a worthy effort - I have spent a lot of time designing areas and custom scripts but it is not too late to do the name thing. I think the more mystery is available even in a generic way makes a bigger difference in playability than packing in the people. So Mystery and Design Concepts are my big focus. I particularly like Lance Bottele's FOW addon it is a great thing to use when needed - like in big areas or where there are not doors at every area.

Modifié par Morbane, 20 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[nicethugbert]

Area transitioning is a pet peave of mine so anything that can be done to minimize that would be appreciated.

[The Fred]

Haven't read all of this yet, but building cities does indeed sound like a big thing. Personally, I find exterior areas of all types quite daunting in NWN2 (with the greater power and flexibility of the heightmapping and suchlike comes the fact that you need to put in a lot more time and effort to make things look nice) and cities probably the most.

I don't think an Overland Map city couldn't work, though it probably would never be able to be quite as good as a living, breathing city area, though I think that depends on what you want from it. If you want to give the sense of depth, presence and density, no, it probably wouldn't do, but if you just want to give a feel of scale, an OM map could work quite well. After all, cities which consist of a couple of 16x16 areas or whatever are nowhere near as even small real-life cities (admittedly medieval ones will have been smaller).

The idea of having NPCs unnamed before you talk to them is one I thought of myself the other day, too (I didn't know it'd been done before, though I'm not at all surprised), and it's something I might try out, at least for commoner-on-the-street-types.

[MokahTGS]

Commoners with no names until you talk to them is a hallmark of Ultima games. Any NPC for that matter. You had to ask them their name and it would then change. All perfectly doable with NWN scripting.