208 réponses à ce sujet

[neppakyo]

Rox: I meant, they feel huge. Damn misplacing word syndrome.

[Cataca]

Roxlimn wrote...
You do NOT want a largely featureless Kirkwall where you spend 15 minutes to get from any place of interest to any other place of interest, just because it's that big.

Thats just ironic, because as is, kirkwall is 1/3rd the size of you hypothetical situation, and still only features uninspired questgivers at some locations, and barren "wasteland" between.  I "get" the idea of quality over quantity, but in this case, its neither.

[Cataca]

Roxlimn wrote...
Name a specific instance of a specific quest
in a specific RPG that required neither a game (of whatever kind),
narrative, nor combat to resolve a Questline.

Im sorry, but WHAT? No narrative to count? Why, thats unreasonable to put it mildly. nor do i quite get the purpose of that, but fine, i will give you examples.

Remember fallout 2? There was a part of the initial quest where you had to "prove you are worthy" by kicking the arse of some tribal goon. Only, that you could pickpocket his keys instead. There are a multitude of "quests" that are solvable with just brains instead of brawn (i would argue "all" but am sure to get corrected)

Multiple situations in NWN could be solved by heaving the right subskills, conversation skills like bluff beeing the most obvious ones, animal empathy beeing one of the more obscure ones.

The new fallout installments, NWN 2, KOTOR or anything really that calls itself a RPG nowadays, everything has some nonviolent solutions that could be called "smarting out things" DA2 does not, how you can defend that is beyond me.

Modifié par Cataca, 16 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[Roxlimn]

neppakyo:



If I were younger, you know what I would do to that post.

The reason why FPS maps feel spacious and "huge" isn't because of size. It's because of features. The most "spacious" maps generally are filled with features that are relevant to FPS play - sniper post here, flanking location there, ways to bypass sniper positions, hidden corners, and blind turns.

So what you might want to say is that Kirkwall isn't as feature-rich as you would have wanted it to be.

Cataca:

I disagree. Kirkwall features many merchant locations, all of which are of varied importance and sell varied loot. In general, there's one merchant or point of interest in a single Kirkwall location. Generally, there are several.

This being the talk/battle kind of game, there's generally only three points of interest: narrative expositions, talkers, and battlers. DA2's Kirkwall locations are about as dense as the average RPG location, and generally moreso than any of their predecessors, including DA:O. Orzammar and Redcliffe were not more interesting locations, in general, as far as features are concerned.

[Warheadz]

As far as I know, you could actually complete at least one of the earlier Fallout games without killing anybody.
Really, games nowadays focus too much on the combat side. You don't have to wield a big ass sword to be a hero.
What I liked in Fallout were the skills, as unbalanced as they might have been. They really opened a lot of roleplaying possibilities. You could be a nerdy doctor, hardened wasteland mercenary, you could be a skilled repairman, you could be a thief...
Dragon Age really needs more non-combat skills that affect the gameplay.

Edit: Fallout collection (1,2,Tactics) is 20$ on Steam! Buy it!

Modifié par Warheadz, 16 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[Roxlimn]

[quote]Cataca wrote...
[/quote]
Im sorry, but WHAT? No narrative to count? Why, thats unreasonable to put it mildly. nor do i quite get the purpose of that, but fine, i will give you examples.

Remember fallout 2? There was a part of the initial quest where you had to "prove you are worthy" by kicking the arse of some tribal goon. Only, that you could pickpocket his keys instead. There are a multitude of "quests" that are solvable with just brains instead of brawn (i would argue "all" but am sure to get corrected)

Multiple situations in NWN could be solved by heaving the right subskills, conversation skills like bluff beeing the most obvious ones, animal empathy beeing one of the more obscure ones.

The new fallout installments, NWN 2, KOTOR or anything really that calls itself a RPG nowadays, everything has some nonviolent solutions that could be called "smarting out things" DA2 does not, how you can defend that is beyond me.
[/quote]

Firstly, using "brains" in those fashions generally means investing character points into "skills" that allow you to bypass combat.  These are still game mechanics.  Frankly, I don't get the attraction to bypassing encounters by using up character build points.  Do they make you feel smart or something?

Secondly, the concept of using character build points to allow specifically built PCs to access content or bypass challenges is BAD GAME DESIGN.  The reason DA2 doesn't incorporate these aspects is because it's a better game.

4e D&D generally segregates non-combat mechanics and challenges into their own sphere, while keeping point builds in combat equitable, but then we come right back to asking Bioware to build us a non-combat game.  And I ask again, do you really want planet-scanning in DA?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Roxlimn wrote...

Cataca wrote...
Im sorry, but WHAT? No narrative to count? Why, thats unreasonable to put it mildly. nor do i quite get the purpose of that, but fine, i will give you examples.

Remember fallout 2? There was a part of the initial quest where you had to "prove you are worthy" by kicking the arse of some tribal goon. Only, that you could pickpocket his keys instead. There are a multitude of "quests" that are solvable with just brains instead of brawn (i would argue "all" but am sure to get corrected)

Multiple situations in NWN could be solved by heaving the right subskills, conversation skills like bluff beeing the most obvious ones, animal empathy beeing one of the more obscure ones.

The new fallout installments, NWN 2, KOTOR or anything really that calls itself a RPG nowadays, everything has some nonviolent solutions that could be called "smarting out things" DA2 does not, how you can defend that is beyond me.

Firstly, using "brains" in those fashions generally means investing character points into "skills" that allow you to bypass combat.  These are still game mechanics.  Frankly, I don't get the attraction to bypassing encounters by using up character build points.  Do they make you feel smart or something?

Secondly, the concept of using character build points to allow specifically built PCs to access content or bypass challenges is BAD GAME DESIGN.  The reason DA2 doesn't incorporate these aspects is because it's a better game.

4e D&D generally segregates non-combat mechanics and challenges into their own sphere, while keeping point builds in combat equitable, but then we come right back to asking Bioware to build us a non-combat game.  And I ask again, do you really want planet-scanning in DA?

Lol. You must hate RPGs then.

But an example of a quest was the Sunry Murder Trial in KotOR. I enjoyed that quest.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 16 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Roxlimn wrote...


Secondly, the concept of using character build points to allow specifically built PCs to access content or bypass challenges is BAD GAME DESIGN.  The reason DA2 doesn't incorporate these aspects is because it's a better game.

Downright wrong. It allows you to customize your characters as one can be the persuasive guy, the other one is the walking cupboard, the other one....you get the point. Hopefully. Saying that DA:RtP is a better game than p&p games is just...stupid.

[NWNMarc]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

How did you feel about immersion in DA2?  Were you immersed the whole time - or was there something that just kind of took you out of being Hawke, and reminded you of the fact that you were just sitting in a room playing a videogame?

I never knew what day it was, how long it took to get from place to place, what the relative priority of my tasks were (other than everything had to be done "tonight"), or why I should care. And trying to have what felt like a natural conversation with the people in Kirkwall was a guessing game at best. My companions would lecture me about actions that had earned their enthusiastic approval a few quests ago, or they would forget that I had refused to go along with THEIR actions. And my GF declared her undying love for me, but then when I gave her a gift, she hemmed and hawed about it, because she wasn't sure how she felt about love.

In other words, it was just like real life! I play these games to escape from all this!

[Mecher3k]

Roxlimn, seriously I will say it again you have a fetish for being wrong.

It's bad game design to follow classic RPG gameplay in a game series that started off as being the spiritual successor a perfect example of classic RPG?

See the thing that I hate about you tools is this, if you don't like how DA:O was, there are plenty of games that are just perfect for you. Instead Bioware listens to you fools and turns the game series into something it's not suppose to be.

[Roxlimn]

mrcrusty:

Lol. You must hate RPGs then.

But an example of a quest was the Sunry Murder Trial in KotOR. I enjoyed that quest.

In fact, I've played D&D almost since the first white pamphlets and have tried out various philosophies and games based on those philosophies. Having combat and noncombat build points be separate does nothing but good.

FellowerOfOdin:

You're not getting the right idea. You're kneejerking just because you think I'm saying that any noncombat game is bad. I'm not saying that. Read again.

[Cataca]

Roxlimn wrote...
Firstly, using "brains" in those fashions
generally means investing character points into "skills" that allow you
to bypass combat.  These are still game mechanics.  Frankly, I don't get
the attraction to bypassing encounters by using up character build
points.  Do they make you feel smart or something?

Do you feel smart killing everything in your way, when you could have avoided combat? Really?

Secondly,
the concept of using character build points to allow specifically built
PCs to access content or bypass challenges is BAD GAME DESIGN.  The
reason DA2 doesn't incorporate these aspects is because it's a better
game.

So heaving more options is bad game design? OPTIONS? Your arguments are getting quite weak here.

4e
D&D generally segregates non-combat mechanics and challenges into
their own sphere, while keeping point builds in combat equitable, but
then we come right back to asking Bioware to build us a non-combat game.
 And I ask again, do you really want planet-scanning in DA?

Im
sorry, it might be because my english is bad, but i cant ascertain the
meaning of that paragraph. How does a skill system force bioware to make
a non combat game. If at all, DnD has more and more built their "non
combat skills" into combat by feats and skills.

And noone gives a **** about those silly minigames, i cant understand how you bring them up again and again.

[Roxlimn]

Do you feel smart killing everything in your way, when you could have avoided combat? Really?

No. I generally don't feel smart playing video games that are not of the puzzle variety. I feel smart when I solve a calculus problem. Unfortunately, few games pose problems of that order of difficulty.

In general, I don't understand the feeling of being smart by using an on/off selectable character attribute to bypass a combat encounter. That is why I was asking. How does it work?

So heaving more options is bad game design? OPTIONS? Your arguments are getting quite weak here.

Not at all. Earlier on, we discussed the possibility of Bioware adding noncombat games to resolve quests. This would be planet scanning, or Mako maneuvering or perhaps a tilt-marble game to simulate lockpicking. Those are options. DO you want planet scanning in Dragon Age?

Im
sorry, it might be because my english is bad, but i cant ascertain the
meaning of that paragraph. How does a skill system force bioware to make
a non combat game. If at all, DnD has more and more built their "non
combat skills" into combat by feats and skills.

And noone gives a **** about those silly minigames, i cant understand how you bring them up again and again.

It's a question of game design. D&D has a lockpicking conflict resolution mechanism that's somewhat but not exactly like the combat mechanics. This works because rolling the dice is a physical activity in D&D so ****** can use the random number generation to create suspense and excitement.

In DA, you compare points against a target. Hardly the same thing.

If I understand you correctly, what you want is to be able to divert character points from the combat aspects of the characters in order to participate in a noncombat minigame, or worse, to be able to bypass specific encounters just through the assignment of points to the specific "skills." As I said, this is now believed to be bad game design. The discussion of why is kind of lengthy (but I'm happy to go into it if you're really interested).

Suffice it to say that D&D's design now compartmentalizes noncombat skills and combat skills. They are now almost completely separate.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 16 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[myztikrice]

You can't just use an example of a badly designed noncombat feature (the mako) and use that as an argument against all other noncombat features.

[Dracotamer]

Yeah, it definitely wasn't immersive at all.

http://social.biowar...62832/7#7089908

[Roxlimn]

myztikrice wrote...

You can't just use an example of a badly designed noncombat feature (the mako) and use that as an argument against all other noncombat features.

I'm not.  If this were any company other than Bioware, I'd request for more noncombat challenges.  But this is Bioware.  You know how they are at noncombat minigames.

[Jitter]

Roxlimn wrote...

There are multiple encounters in the game where you can avoid combat if you choose the right options.

My right options do you mean not buying the game ?

[Roxlimn]

No.

[Cataca]

No. I generally don't feel smart playing video games that are not of
the puzzle variety. I feel smart when I solve a calculus problem.
Unfortunately, few games pose problems of that order of difficulty.

In general, I don't understand the feeling of being smart by using an
on/off selectable character attribute to bypass a combat encounter.
That is why I was asking. How does it work?

Calculus? Cute.

At any rate, its still an RPG, and you ignore my main point. It is not how i feel smart, it is how i play a character that is, and also get the options to express that. It adds to deph, if nothing else. How you have to see everything as a personal assessment is rather strange, at the end of the day you are not hawke, and i beg to god that you dont feel that  way either.

Hawke is a person with no problemsovling skills at best, and a soziopathic **** at worst.

Not at all. Earlier on, we discussed the possibility of Bioware adding
noncombat games to resolve quests. This would be planet scanning, or
Mako maneuvering or perhaps a tilt-marble game to simulate lockpicking.
Those are options. DO you want planet scanning in Dragon Age?

You lack imagination, and you just pulled that "noncombat games"out  of your imagination. I said different solutions to quests. This can be done in a multitude of ways, starting from "i am your friend [lie]" to bypass a guard, till selling off a companion to please some npc to get him to do something for you (i did not invent any of those, they are present choices in other games). Mako or planet scanning is none of those, and i cant possibly imagine a quest that would have those things as a solution either.

It's a question of game design. D&D has a lockpicking conflict
resolution mechanism that's somewhat but not exactly like the combat
mechanics. This works because rolling the dice is a physical activity
in D&D so ****** can use the random number generation to create
suspense and excitement.

In DA, you compare points against a target. Hardly the same thing.

If
I understand you correctly, what you want is to be able to divert
character points from the combat aspects of the characters in order to
participate in a noncombat minigame, or worse, to be able to bypass
specific encounters just through the assignment of points to the
specific "skills." As I said, this is now believed to be bad game
design. The discussion of why is kind of lengthy (but I'm happy to go
into it if you're really interested).

Suffice it to say that
D&D's design now compartmentalizes noncombat skills and combat
skills. They are now almost completely separate

 Why a bloody minigame again? Anyhow, you just basically said that NWN was a impossible game, and so was NWN 2, BG, KOTOR or anything like that.  Most certainly not something that gets your point across. And how bloodthirsty are you exactly, bypassing combat is not a bad thing. The  mightiest sword is the one that doesnt have to be wielded.

Modifié par Cataca, 16 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

At any rate, its still an RPG, and you ignore my main point. It is not how i feel smart, it is how i play a character that is, and also get the options to express that. It adds to deph, if nothing else. How you have to see everything as a personal assessment is rather strange, at the end of the day you are not hawke, and i beg to god that you dont feel that way either.

Hawke is a person with no problemsovling skills at best, and a soziopathic **** at worst.

I disagree. As I've mentioned before, Hawke can get lots of things done without resorting to the edge of his blade. Characterizing him as a person with no problem-solving skills does no justice to the character. At best, such a pronouncement is a sloppy exaggeration.

You lack imagination, and you just pulled that "noncombat games"out of your imagination. I said different solutions to quests. This can be done in a multitude of ways, starting from "i am your friend [lie]" to bypass a guard, till selling off a companion to please some npc to get him to do something for you (i did not invent any of those, they are present choices in other games). Mako or planet scanning is none of those, and i cant possibly imagine a quest that would have those things as a solution either.

You can actually do those in DA2. You can sell off Fenris to buy off Danarius. The rest of what you are referring to is actually text-based adventure design, which is not only present in DA2, but is more fleshed out in Japanese Dating Sims! Do you want DA to be more like a Japanese Dating Sim?

Why a bloody minigame again? Anyhow, you just basically said that NWN was a impossible game, and so was NWN 2, BG, KOTOR or anything like that. Most certainly not something that gets your point across. And how bloodthirsty are you exactly, bypassing combat is not a bad thing. The mightiest sword is the one that doesnt have to be wielded.

Those games are not impossible. The "smart," "roleplaying" portions of those games are text-based adventure design. Is that what you were looking for?

[Cataca]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Cataca:

[quote]
I disagree. As I've mentioned before, Hawke can get lots of things done
without resorting to the edge of his blade. Characterizing him as a
person with no problem-solving skills does no justice to the character.
At best, such a pronouncement is a sloppy exaggeration.
[/quote]

Really now, there must be an entire backstory i have missed on the character then, because all he does is kill or not kill. Mass murdering character with a god complex, awesome rpg material.

[quote]

You can actually do those in DA2. You can sell off Fenris to buy off
Danarius. The rest of what you are referring to is actually text-based
adventure design, which is not only present in DA2, but is more fleshed
out in Japanese Dating Sims! Do you want DA to be more like a Japanese
Dating Sim?
[/quote]

Sure, neverwinter nights, fallout and the like, are all like japanese dating simulators. Are you even trying anymore? Just trolling me wont work love, you gotta try harder than that.

[quote]
Those games are not impossible. The "smart," "roleplaying" portions of
those games are text-based adventure design. Is that what you were
looking for?
[/quote]

Are you really so starved for combat? How about you play something that is actually about that stuff. I found it nice when a RPG was about choices, you could choose to be a bloodthirsty moron, not be one automatically.

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

Really now, there must be an entire backstory i have missed on the character then, because all he does is kill or not kill. Mass murdering character with a god complex, awesome rpg material.

He finds Anders and talks to him for Varric. Most gamers incorrectly think that this is something that just anyone can do, because Hawke can do it. That does not follow. If Varric could have done it himself, he would have. He's not the sort to let the grass grow under his feet.

There are many instances of this nature, where Hawke's charisma and persuasion have a notable effect. Most gamers just don't notice.

Sure, neverwinter nights, fallout and the like, are all like japanese dating simulators. Are you even trying anymore? Just trolling me wont work love, you gotta try harder than that.

They're not. They're usually worse specimens. Japanese Dating Sims are superior examples, which is why I used them. It was not meant to disparage the choice.

Japanese Dating Sims can have expansive casts, fully characterized, and with complex storylines. A single AVN could have up to 17 distinct endings - individually distinct, not simply composed of a combination of various independent ending variables. If you really want complex storylines in text-based adventures, AVNs is where it's at.

Are you really so starved for combat? How about you play something that is actually about that stuff. I found it nice when a RPG was about choices, you could choose to be a bloodthirsty moron, not be one automatically.

Actually, I've generally found Bioware games to be exceptionally combat-heavy. They do that best, so I don't mind when DA2 focuses on combat. If I wanted a text-based adventure, I'd play a game that actually does that well.

[Cataca]

He finds Anders and talks to him for Varric. Most gamers incorrectly
think that this is something that just anyone can do, because Hawke can
do it. That does not follow. If Varric could have done it himself, he
would have. He's not the sort to let the grass grow under his feet.

There
are many instances of this nature, where Hawke's charisma and
persuasion have a notable effect. Most gamers just don't notice.

Yes, im sure that was really hard to do. And the masterpiece of dialouge, who ever but hawke could have pulled that off? Im sorry, but the story, and the dialouge was just flat.  I will agree that this is somewhat subjective, so whatever.

They're not. They're usually worse specimens. Japanese Dating Sims are
superior examples, which is why I used them. It was not meant to
disparage the choice.

Japanese Dating Sims can have expansive
casts, fully characterized, and with complex storylines. A single AVN
could have up to 17 distinct endings - individually distinct, not simply
composed of a combination of various independent ending variables. If
you really want complex storylines in text-based adventures, AVNs is
where it's at.

Except that i can get laid in real life just as well, i play a fantasy RPG to get something unlike a real life experience. And i cant exactly see the appeal of limiting that to ONLY combat or NOT combat. There is a simple lack of choice, that is all, really. There is no finesse, no added deph through choices, and practically nothing else that would drawn me to such games. I could play god of war (most likely, never did) the story would probably better, the combat would be better, and i would have the same choices. To combat, or not to.

Actually, I've generally found Bioware games to be exceptionally
combat-heavy. They do that best, so I don't mind when DA2 focuses on
combat. If I wanted a text-based adventure, I'd play a game that
actually does that well.

Bioware has removed everything not combat in this game, and you are fine with that? I can not understand you. Talking about kicking evolution in the nuts and running backwards.

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

Except that i can get laid in real life just as well, i play a fantasy RPG to get something unlike a real life experience.

Sigh.

Alright. The point of playing a Japanese Dating Sim is to get to the story. Many of them are also porn, but many are not. Obviously, you've only been exposed to the porn variety. My condolences.

This does not detract from the quality and complexity of Japanese AVN narrative structure. If that's the kind of game you want, you're looking in the wrong treehole.

And i cant exactly see the appeal of limiting that to ONLY combat or NOT combat. There is a simple lack of choice, that is all, really. There is no finesse, no added depth through choices, and practically nothing else that would drawn me to such games. I could play god of war (most likely, never did) the story would probably better, the combat would be better, and i would have the same choices. To combat, or not to.

Not exactly. For all that you tout so-called "skills" in NVN and related games, the bulk of what they allow you to do is exactly the same thing: to combat or not to combat. The only difference is that instead of a narrative interlude, you got to select an on/off character attribute. Is that what you were looking for?

Why is it superior to have a selectable mechanical attribute to allow you to bypass combat, compared to having a narrative content game play out that allows you to do the exact same thing?

Bioware has removed everything not combat in this game, and you are fine with that? I can not understand you. Talking about kicking evolution in the nuts and running backwards.

Yep. To be more succint, it's removed minigames from DA, the combat is slick, and the narratives are paced and to the point. You can still open locks and remove traps, you know, it just doesn't allow you to bypass combat with those skills. You need to talk for that.

And yes, I would rather not have planet scanning, or lengthy click-to-disarm games in my fantasy. I resent the implication that this makes me a lesser human than you.

[Tirigon]

Roxlimn wrote...

88mphSlayer:

FPS fans play the same maps over and over and over again in multiplayer matches. The same maps are literally reused for matches hundreds of times.

But in MULTIPLAYER matches. It is not a single time in Singleplayer - except if it makes sense storywise, of course, like in the first Halo where you fight your way to the control room and then have to escape out of it again.