208 réponses à ce sujet

[Cataca]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Cataca:

[quote]
Alright. The point of playing a Japanese Dating Sim is to get to the
story. Many of them are also porn, but many are not. Obviously, you've
only been exposed to the porn variety. My condolences.

This
does not detract from the quality and complexity of Japanese AVN
narrative structure. If that's the kind of game you want, you're
looking in the wrong treehole.
[/quote]

I have not been exposed to any sort, my point stands. Just because you find story in other games, doesnt mean i should give up on mine. That is, after all, the main point of an RPG. And please, do not suggest that i try my luck with the dating sims, there is a story for a dating sim, and some RPG story, the differences are fundamental.



[quote]
Why is it superior to have a selectable mechanical attribute to allow
you to bypass combat, compared to having a narrative content game play
out that allows you to do the exact same thing?
[/quote]

Kill/diplomatic. Instead of, a uncalled number of choices. No matter how you belittle them. Say that they "bypass" combat or anything like that. The system of DA2 is not only simplistic, its a step backwards. We had diplomacy, bluff and could lie. Now we can kill, or not kill.

I am hawke, i have a god complex, lets decide if you die today!

[quote]
Yep. To be more succint, it's removed minigames from DA, the combat is
slick, and the narratives are paced and to the point. You can still
open locks and remove traps, you know, it just doesn't allow you to
bypass combat with those skills. You need to talk for that.

And
yes, I would rather not have planet scanning, or lengthy click-to-disarm
games in my fantasy. I resent the implication that this makes me a
lesser human than you.[[/quote]

/quote]

I dont understand what the **** you have with those minigames, i have not once suggested to have them anywhere. And bypassing combat, is NOT a bad thing. But i do implicate that you like to kill pixel humans. Is that better? And at any rate "you had to talk" in RPG's since the beginning of bloody time, you make it sound like an innovation.

[bEVEsthda]

Roxlimn wrote...
Cataca:

Bioware has removed everything not combat in this game, and you are fine with that? I can not understand you. Talking about kicking evolution in the nuts and running backwards.

Yep. To be more succint, it's removed minigames from DA, the combat is slick, and the narratives are paced and to the point. You can still open locks and remove traps, you know, it just doesn't allow you to bypass combat with those skills. You need to talk for that.

And yes, I would rather not have planet scanning, or lengthy click-to-disarm games in my fantasy. I resent the implication that this makes me a lesser human than you.

Roxlimn, I disagree with you on every contrieved, contorted point you've tried to make in this thread. (And I suspect so do most people here).

But I don't write this in order to argue with you. I just want to point out to you that you are arguing with others about how they experience and perceive the game! With often very contrieved points. That is, quite frankly, mega-fail.

...And to remind you that the topic of this thread is immersion.

[Roxlimn]

Cataca:

I have not been exposed to any sort, my point stands. Just because you find story in other games, doesnt mean i should give up on mine. That is, after all, the main point of an RPG. And please, do not suggest that i try my luck with the dating sims, there is a story for a dating sim, and some RPG story, the differences are fundamental.

As you have not been exposed to any Japanese Dating Sim, I question your ability to distinguish between them and typical RPGs.

Moreover, my main point is whether you would rather than DA become more like the Japanese Dating Sims. A yes would suffice.

Kill/diplomatic. Instead of, a uncalled number of choices. No matter how you belittle them. Say that they "bypass" combat or anything like that. The system of DA2 is not only simplistic, its a step backwards. We had diplomacy, bluff and could lie. Now we can kill, or not kill.

I am hawke, i have a god complex, lets decide if you die today!

You could actually still do that in DA2. Diplomatic, bluffing, and lying options all exist in DA2 and they comprise the so-called "not kill" option you generalize. There isn't a difference as far as I can see.

I dont understand what the **** you have with those minigames, i have not once suggested to have them anywhere. And bypassing combat, is NOT a bad thing. But i do implicate that you like to kill pixel humans. Is that better? And at any rate "you had to talk" in RPG's since the beginning of bloody time, you make it sound like an innovation.

ANY game that isn't part of the combat game is a minigame. ANY game. Do you want a lockpicking "mechanic" that you can access if you put points into "lockpicing?" Well, then that's a minigame. Do you want "diplomatic options" you can access? Minigame as well.

If it's not fully fleshed enough to be a minigame, then it's just a text-based adventure design, and we go back to the Dating Sims. It's really quite simple.

bEVEsthda:

If you have a valid argument or topical content, post. Otherwise, leave out.

[Sabriana]

I think it's a huge mistake to dismiss the FPS crowd as 'mindless console tards" who are happy by simply shooting everything in their way. On the contrary, they are just as devoted to *their* genre as the RPG crowd is. I believe they are even more picky and elitist, and quite hard to satisfy with a split genre. imo

FPS fans are 100 times more likely to give the ME series a try than giving the DA series a try. Swords, bows, dragons and mindless combat simply will not do it for them. imo

A RPGer is far more likely to accept a hybrid if it contains at least some of the true RPG elements, than a FPSer is to accept a hybrid that contains at least some of the true FPS elements. imo

Edited to add "imo" everywhere, as it seems to be necessary nowadays

Modifié par Sabriana, 16 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[MDarwin]

Immersion? What in DA2? Ahh, now I get it, your pulling my leg!

[Tirigon]

Roxlimn wrote...

ANY game that isn't part of the combat game is a minigame. ANY game. Do you want a lockpicking "mechanic" that you can access if you put points into "lockpicing?" Well, then that's a minigame. Do you want "diplomatic options" you can access? Minigame as well.

If it's not fully fleshed enough to be a minigame, then it's just a text-based adventure design, and we go back to the Dating Sims. It's really quite simple.

And that is bad how?

To be honest, I quite liked the way Oblivion handled Lockpicking, for example, since with a little practice I could open even the hardest lock without wasting skill points in lockpicking.

I don´t get the hate for minigames. If they are good ones, then I like them. If they are not, then the problem lies in them being bad, not in them being minigames.

[MistySun]

erynnar wrote...

I never got into it the way I did with DAO. There were times in the Deep Roads *cough* Broodmother poem *cough, cough* where I did not want to keep going. I actually felt I was there and it creeped me out...then my darling husband turned off the lights so I could play it in the dark.

That broodmother poem freaked me out too jerynnar....as did several moments in DA:O. Niall and  The Litany of Andralla....Danyla the werewolf...etc.

But with DA2 NOTHING tore at my emotions at all.

[Roxlimn]

Tirigon:

It's related to how this is a Bioware game. If this were a Bethesda game, I'd be okay with minigames. But it's not. It's a Bioware game. I have not seen a Bioware game where a minigame improved play experience. In two of their most recent ones, it was quite terrible. I'm happy enough that I don't have to endure a bad trap-disarming minigame in DA2.

[bEVEsthda]

Roxlimn wrote...

If it's not fully fleshed enough to be a minigame, then it's just a text-based adventure design, and we go back to the Dating Sims. It's really quite simple.

Because you say so? Not at all.

bEVEsthda:

If you have a valid argument or topical content, post. Otherwise, leave out.

And when will you be done with this nonsense? Are we supposed to suddenly say: "Aah, yes, he's right. DA2 is so immersive and such a great game, because FPS players play the same map over and over again in multiplayer matches, and it's not a japanese dating sim. And his wife played DA2 on casual as a conversational game and enjoyed it more than DA:O. Why didn't I see that at once? Now I understand that I should have enjoyed this great evolution of the Dragon Age franchise. Funny I didn't? But that is surely just something wrong with me."  Is that it?

Arguing with you is fail, so no, I have no intention to present an argument. I just briefly (probably foolishly) tried to make you take a step back and get an overview, a clear understanding, instead of all these myoptic, contrieved analysis for the purpose of sweeping generalizations "japanes dating sims" etc, which are probably totally irrelevant for those you are arguing with. We already know that you like DA2 the way it is. Fine. We don't. Don't try to argue that we should, when we try to explain why it feels wrong.

My on topic content would be to remind that this thread is about immersion, and how DA2 breaks immersion for a lot of people, in various ways.

[Roxlimn]

bEVEsthda:

To be clear, I am not trying to argue that you should like it. That's stupid. Whether you like it or not is your affair. There's no accounting for taste. WHY you dislike it is open season. If it doesn't make sense, I'm free to question the assertion, as this is a discussion board.

Cataca's and my discussion is about immersion. Go back to the start of the discussion to gain context. If you can't read the whole of it, please do the polite thing and just not say anything.

[Tirigon]

Roxlimn wrote...

Tirigon:

It's related to how this is a Bioware game. If this were a Bethesda game, I'd be okay with minigames. But it's not. It's a Bioware game. I have not seen a Bioware game where a minigame improved play experience. In two of their most recent ones, it was quite terrible. I'm happy enough that I don't have to endure a bad trap-disarming minigame in DA2.

That is a valid opinion. I can see your point.

Of course, I *don´t* see how a minigame, no matter how bad, could make DA2 any worse than it is already:P, and imo the combat in DA2 doesn´t improve play experience either. Rather the opposite, for me:(

[Roxlimn]

Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.

*runs sobbing*

Modifié par Roxlimn, 16 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[Tirigon]

Roxlimn wrote...

Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.

*runs sobbing*

I played it looooong ago, but to be honest, I don´t remember a minigame in ME2. Unless you mean the planet scanning, which I wouldn´t even call a "minigame" but rather an "awful waste of time"

[Roxlimn]

Yup, that's what I'm referring to. We don't need that in DA.

[bEVEsthda]

Tirigon wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.

*runs sobbing*

I played it looooong ago, but to be honest, I don´t remember a minigame in ME2. Unless you mean the planet scanning, which I wouldn´t even call a "minigame" but rather an "awful waste of time"

I just got the freebee version, and there are certainly minigames in ME2. Hacking and whatever. I've just started the game. And they definitely have me worried.

[DocDoomII]

Roxlimn wrote...

Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.

*runs sobbing*

That's not a minigame. That's is a plain old time sink.

And a minigame in lockpicking is not a time sink if you add a lock/bash mechanism too.

Modifié par DocDoomII, 16 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Avalastrius]

BioWare has really lost it. I won't be buying one of their games again. They feel so archaic in design. Lifeless NPCs, not open worlds, lifeless cities... And I am not even talking about the farce that is DA2.

Thank God for Bethesda and CD Projekt. Skyrim and The Witcher 2 really show how RPGs can evolve.

So humiliating to be a BioWare fan these days.

[Roxlimn]

DocDoomII wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.
*runs sobbing*

That's not a minigame. That's is a plaion old time sink.
And a minigame in lockpicking is not a time sink if you add a lock/bash mechanism too.

Wait, you want to add a lock/bash minigame/time sink to the lockpicking minigame/timesink?

Let's see.  Bioware has the brilliant idea of making you play a bad game of Frogger to simulate lockpicking.  To simulate bashing in locks, they make you play Minesweeper.  Are we feeling the improvements, yet?

As I said, I'd love to have alternate minigames in DA2 if it were any other company, but this is Bioware.  Let's count our blessings, gentlemen.

[Tirigon]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I just got the freebee version, and there are certainly minigames in ME2. Hacking and whatever. I've just started the game. And they definitely have me worried.

Ah yea, lol, true. I totally forgot about them. Imo they weren´t too bad, though. Not worse than having to bring a rogue with points dumped in lockpicking anyways :-/

[Tommy6860]

Tirigon wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Oh? Presumably you haven't played ME2, then. Trust me, you don't WANT to know how a minigame can make DA2 worse. You don't.  Excuse me.

*runs sobbing*

I played it looooong ago, but to be honest, I don´t remember a minigame in ME2. Unless you mean the planet scanning, which I wouldn´t even call a "minigame" but rather an "awful waste of time"

Planet scanning wasn't a mini-game in ME2 or ME, it was just a means to earn credits. ME2 had a few though (breaking into safes and decrypting codes) and ME had one IIRC, when one attempts to unlock keypad coded door under different difficulties.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 16 avril 2011 - 11:21 .

[DocDoomII]

I didn't meant to say that the other minigames in ME2 are good. They are frakking stupid.
I was referring to a minigame suck lockpicking in elder's scroll games and for a lock/bash mechanic something based on blunt weapon and str statistic is good enough. You hammer the lock -> have enough str -> lock opens.
It's not a time sink if you have an alternative like that. It's only a choice on your playstyle.

[Tommy6860]

I wouldn't say that DA2 was meant to "not" be immersive, as immersion has a different meaning for those who are interesting in the game for their own reasons. If you like combat galore, that can be immersive, it just isn't for me being it is under the RPG category and all.

[Roxlimn]

DocDoomII wrote...

I didn't meant to say that the other minigames in ME2 are good. They are frakking stupid.
I was referring to a minigame suck lockpicking in elder's scroll games and for a lock/bash mechanic something based on blunt weapon and str statistic is good enough. You hammer the lock -> have enough str -> lock opens.
It's not a time sink if you have an alternative like that. It's only a choice on your playstyle.

I think we all wish that Bioware could make something that reasonable, but history suggests otherwise.

I'm actually not all that sure how a lock mechanic ought to be implemented in a game like this so as to make it balanced, but also immersive.  An immersive really good lock would be protecting really powerful or really expensive loot, but that's kind of gamebreaking, too.

[Boiny Bunny]

Can we pretty please put this somewhat back onto topic?  If you want to talk about minigames, at least we could relate it back to immersion.

As far as immersion is concerned, I don't think that minigames are necessarily a horrible thing - but it depends how they are done, and if it makes sense for them to be in the game.

For example, in Mass Effect, do I really believe that every time Shepard wanted to scan something or hack a door, he had to push one of four buttons in a sequence shown on the lock and if he was more than 1 second out the door locked?  (Or on the PC version a weird game where you have spinning blocks and have to get the pebble past them to the centre of the circle...)

Neither of these make any logical sense as far as I'm concerned, and broke the immersion a little for me.  They felt like minigames for the same of minigames - not because they actually added anything to the game.

Driving the Mako around in Mass Effect?  Boring as heck.  Wish they hadn't put it in for the most part.  BUT, incredibly immersive (well, for some of the more beautiful planets - after a few it gets old anyway).

Or in KOTOR, I didn't mind the 'shooting the Sith fighters down' minigame - as I'm decent enough at shooters to not have a problem with it.  Many of my friends who do not like FPS games had trouble hitting them though and got stuck on these segments sometimes for hours.  But it made sense for those sequences to be in the game.  They weren't completely shoehorned in.

Personally, I'm very glad there are no minigames in DA2.  They would just make the experience worse most likely.  I just wish there were more non-combat related quests, for a start.

[Boiny Bunny]

Roxlimn wrote...

DocDoomII wrote...

I didn't meant to say that the other minigames in ME2 are good. They are frakking stupid.
I was referring to a minigame suck lockpicking in elder's scroll games and for a lock/bash mechanic something based on blunt weapon and str statistic is good enough. You hammer the lock -> have enough str -> lock opens.
It's not a time sink if you have an alternative like that. It's only a choice on your playstyle.

I think we all wish that Bioware could make something that reasonable, but history suggests otherwise.

I'm actually not all that sure how a lock mechanic ought to be implemented in a game like this so as to make it balanced, but also immersive.  An immersive really good lock would be protecting really powerful or really expensive loot, but that's kind of gamebreaking, too.

I recall in KOTOR 2 (yes I know, not Bioware) created a system where you could bash locks - it wouldn't always work, but if you ever did it on a container with items inside, some of them would get broken when you bashed the lock as opposed to unlocking it.

It's an interesting compromise between forcing you to have a character who can pick master locks and not being able to get the treasure at all.