25 réponses à ce sujet

[krasnoarmeets]

I played through DAO Awakenings and have a save where I dismissed Anders at the start (stated the Grey Wardens dn't need him, but show him mercy - I did this coz I think he's a ponce), had Nathaniel Howe executed (he killed my character's family) and kept Justice on. At the end of this playthrough, in the epilogue it states that Justice had his head lopped off at the end of the battle by some unmentioned darkspawn, as I left him at the Keep and took Oghren, Sigrun and Velanna with me to kick the Mother's jiggly butt. So, it's fairly easy for me to confirm that (1) Anders didn't become a Grey Warden under my tutelage, (2) I didn't give him a cat and (3) He and Justice never met. The third one I'm positive of because I left Justice at the Keep and he was killed. 

And yet...

I go into DA2, use this one as a background save, yet lo and behold there's Anders (1) claiming to be a grey warden (I didn't make him one) (2) claiming the grey warden made him get rid of his cat (I didn't give him one) and (3) most implausibly, got all cozy with Justice... WTF?!

Someone care to explain this for me? 

[thesuperdarkone]

There is canon. Your character did all those things regardless of your choices. Also because you picked the worse character ever as your avatar.

[TJPags]

1. Anders is always a Gray Warden. If you didn't make him one, some other GW somewhere did (and yes, I know there were none in Ferelden except you and your crew. Clearly, he travels a lot)
2. Someone else gave him a cat. Cats are easy to find, you know.
3. The body Justice was inhabiting died. Justice . . .apparently didn't.

That work for you?

[Elessara]

Just to be nitpicky though ... you had Nathaniel executed for killing your character's family? But Nathaniel didn't kill your character's family. He wasn't even in Ferelden at the time that your family died.

Also, your character doesn't remain as the GW Commander, they leave and "move on" so the next GW commander could have recruited Anders and that's how Anders met Justice.

[FFLB]

And don't forget that apparently you met Justice before Anders in order for Anders to have met Justice at all. Who knows. Maybe Anders was just creeping around the outskirts of the keep the entire time nicking some food here and there to feed himself and his stray cat, and somehow just came across a cup full of darkspawn blood, which he mistook for a strong brew of some sort. He hides during the battle, and agrees to help Justice when he comes upon Kristoff's decapitated corpse, after which is when the Grey Wardens find him and take away his cat. Leading to the creation of Vengeance.

That's one way to fit your story into DA2's mold.

Modifié par FFLB, 15 avril 2011 - 03:07 .

[AlexXIV]

So Nathaniel Howe killed your family. For someone with your memory I am surprised you even noticed the handwaving.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[krasnoarmeets]

Elessara wrote...

Just to be nitpicky though ... you had Nathaniel executed for killing your character's family? But Nathaniel didn't kill your character's family. He wasn't even in Ferelden at the time that your family died.

Also, your character doesn't remain as the GW Commander, they leave and "move on" so the next GW commander could have recruited Anders and that's how Anders met Justice.

His father killed my family is what I meant, but he was also responsible by virtue of being a Howe. That's how my character saw it, like it or not, I don't care. What can I say? That particular character of mine has issues... I typed the synopsis up in a hurry, but it's irrelevant to the point I'm making at any rate.

With regard to your second point, you need to think about the timing of events. The Hawkes leave Lothering just before the darkspawn overrun it and you get the spiel about the Hero of Fereldan defeating the Blight after being in Kirkwall. The events in Amaranthine take place approximately 6 months after the Blight was defeated from what I've read.

When exactgly did they have time to meet?

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Your character did all those things regardless of your choices.

Umm, that's what I was saying... so, duh, yeah. *shakes head*

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Also because you picked the worse character ever as your avatar.

Who cares if you don't like Tali?

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 15 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Foolsfolly]

You can't blame someone for the actions of their father!

In regards to your topic, there's some hard defining of canon now. Anders was a Warden, regardless, and Justice and Anders fused regardless of any death. Oh, and apparently Ser Pounce-a-lot existed regardless.

Maybe that's handwaving....I'm not all that knowing of that definition, but I see it has establishing hard canon.

[krasnoarmeets]

Like I said my character has some issues. She most certainly did blame Nathaniel for the actions of his father... in fact, you should look back in history about debts incurred by fathers having to be paid for by offspring and the like.

TJPags wrote...

1. Anders is always a Gray Warden. If you didn't make him one, some other GW somewhere did (and yes, I know there were none in Ferelden except you and your crew. Clearly, he travels a lot)
2. Someone else gave him a cat. Cats are easy to find, you know.
3. The body Justice was inhabiting died. Justice . . .apparently didn't.

That work for you?

No, it doesn't. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted what I did. 

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 15 avril 2011 - 07:28 .

[TheBlackBaron]

It's not handwaving so much as just establishing the loosest of canons (does it count as a retcon if there was none in existence before it?). It's only a handwave if they deign to offer some explanation for it.

Leliana's continued existence among the living is a handwave, for example.

[Foolsfolly]

I have no idea what Leliana is.

Plot inconsistency? Hard to say when the plot could have her dead or alive.

Plot hole? Not really.

Retcon? Only if she died.

Establishing canon? Maybe?

I have no idea what Leliana is. I don't hate it. It's a little weird to see her as a duel rogue working as the right hand of the Divine...but there's been another former Warden companion who's had greater changes....

[Kaiser Shepard]

Well, however Leliana was revived, at least it was "explained" in some way.

An Ultimate Sacrifice-Warden just appearing alive and well in Awakening, retconning what might possibly be the most personal choice in Origins, is a much bigger problem in my eyes.

[NaclynE]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

I played through DAO Awakenings and have a save where I dismissed Anders at the start (stated the Grey Wardens dn't need him, but show him mercy - I did this coz I think he's a ponce), had Nathaniel Howe executed (he killed my character's family) and kept Justice on. At the end of this playthrough, in the epilogue it states that Justice had his head lopped off at the end of the battle by some unmentioned darkspawn, as I left him at the Keep and took Oghren, Sigrun and Velanna with me to kick the Mother's jiggly butt. So, it's fairly easy for me to confirm that (1) Anders didn't become a Grey Warden under my tutelage, (2) I didn't give him a cat and (3) He and Justice never met. The third one I'm positive of because I left Justice at the Keep and he was killed. 

And yet...

I go into DA2, use this one as a background save, yet lo and behold there's Anders (1) claiming to be a grey warden (I didn't make him one) (2) claiming the grey warden made him get rid of his cat (I didn't give him one) and (3) most implausibly, got all cozy with Justice... WTF?!

Someone care to explain this for me? 

I think if I remember right with my save file where in Awakening I gave him to the templars and which did not make him a Grey Warden. Now from what you mentioned makes sense where I didn't have Justice killed myself. I think what happened in this case was Anders was suppose to be executed by the templars but as you said Justice was killed but his sould then possessed Anders and made him a grey warden and got him to break free from the Templar tower. I do clearly remember him mnetioning 'escapeing the Templars', 'Being locked in a tower prison' and 'being possessed by the spirit of justice' which Anders does mention but what doesn't make sense is him magically becomeing a Grey warden. I know Kristoff Was a Grey Warden but not the spirit of justice. Also I agree the who Sir-Punce-Alot thing even makes no sense when he was thrown in a tower prison. Well actually I think he did mention something about 'Being visited by a pet' or something while being in the prison cell that he called Sir-Punce-Alot? I am kind of vauge on that staement. I do at least remember him being in a templar toer prison them magically being freed by the spirit of justice at least.

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I have no idea what Leliana is.

Plot inconsistency? Hard to say when the plot could have her dead or alive.

Plot hole? Not really.

Retcon? Only if she died.

Establishing canon? Maybe?

I have no idea what Leliana is. I don't hate it. It's a little weird to see her as a duel rogue working as the right hand of the Divine...but there's been another former Warden companion who's had greater changes....

Well, going by my own definitions, a handwave is just a retcon that they tried to give some story reason for, as opposed to just saying, "That's how it is. *sunglasses* Deal with it." David Gaider hasn't given us a specific reason yet, but he's obviously got something in mind. 

Plus, it's only a retcon/handwave for the 5% of people in whose games she's dead in. Otherwise it's just...character development, I guess. Sucks for the people who romanced her and had these fantasies of their Warden living happily ever after peddling croissants in Val Royeaux, but as a jaded Morrigan fan I figure the've still got it better. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 15 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[Foolsfolly]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Well, however Leliana was revived, at least it was "explained" in some way.

An Ultimate Sacrifice-Warden just appearing alive and well in Awakening, retconning what might possibly be the most personal choice in Origins, is a much bigger problem in my eyes.

Yeah. But I got over that long ago. The Ultimate Sacrifice ending, to me, was the best ending of the whole game. That was the one I used the most. When I heard Awakening could have you play as an Orlaisan Warden Commander, I just assumed loading in a Dead Warden would have you play this new character.

When it didn't...well....then I kinda stopped playing characters that ended up with the US ending.

I think, some day soon, BioWare's just going to say the Warden made the deal with Morrigan. If for nothing else to resolve the Old God Baby plot-line. It's a big question, a truly grey choice since we have no idea what the consquences of that could ever be.

But imagine one day they'll need to answer it, and I doubt the import function will keep track of it. Especially if they answer it in a game in another console generation.

[Foolsfolly]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I have no idea what Leliana is.

Plot inconsistency? Hard to say when the plot could have her dead or alive.

Plot hole? Not really.

Retcon? Only if she died.

Establishing canon? Maybe?

I have no idea what Leliana is. I don't hate it. It's a little weird to see her as a duel rogue working as the right hand of the Divine...but there's been another former Warden companion who's had greater changes....

Well, going by my own definitions, a handwave is just a retcon that they tried to give some story reason for, as opposed to just saying, "That's how it is. *sunglasses* Deal with it." David Gaider hasn't given us a specific reason yet, but he's obviously got something in mind. 

Plus, it's only a retcon/handwave for the 5% of people in whose games she's dead in. Otherwise it's just...character development, I guess. Sucks for the people who romanced her and had these fantasies of their Warden living happily ever after peddling croissants in Val Royeaux, but as a jaded Morrigan fan I figure the've still got it better. 

Understandable. I know what a retcon is and I assumed a handwave was a simple explaination given for plot inconsistancies.

And I think Morrigan fans had it better before Witch Hunt came out. Morrigan's now either got the Warden at her side, a god baby, no god baby, in Orlais, or wherever the mirror took her...with whoever she may or may not have taken.

She's going to be a writing nightmare if they use import data. They may just establish a canon with her just to save them three months of writing all the different types of cameos and roles she'd have to play when she shows up again.

[krasnoarmeets]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Yeah. But I got over that long ago. The Ultimate Sacrifice ending, to me, was the best ending of the whole game. That was the one I used the most. When I heard Awakening could have you play as an Orlaisan Warden Commander, I just assumed loading in a Dead Warden would have you play this new character.

When it didn't...well....then I kinda stopped playing characters that ended up with the US ending.

I agree. I always thought that Ultimate Sacrifice choices made in Origins were horribly cheapened by the '*poof* you're alive' attitude in Awakening. I always thought that an Ultimate Sacrifice save should be able to be imported into Awakenings, but played out as an Orlesian warden. That always stuck in my craw.

I had a Templar character (deeply religious HM) in Origins who romanced Leliana and her only who made the ultimate sacrifice. I remember finding the epilogue touching where it said that Leliana had quietly vanished. Some say the Maker came to her in a vision that night. Smiling, tears in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last. Then she turns up in Kirkwall (with that very save) and behaves as if her cat died. *Harumph*

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 15 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[NaclynE]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

I always thought that Ultimate Sacrifice choices made in Origins were horribly cheapened by the '*poof* you're alive' attitude in Awakening. I always thought that an Ultimate Sacrifice save should be able to be imported into Awakenings, but played out as an Orlesian warden. That always stuck in my craw.

I had a Templar character (deeply religious HM) in Origins who romanced Leliana and her only who made the ultimate sacrifice. I remember finding the epilogue touching where it said that Leliana had quietly vanished. Some say the Maker came to her in a vision that night. Smiling, tears in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last. Then she turns up in Kirkwall (with that very save) and behaves as if her cat died.

Is that what happens if you have your character die in Origions but carry over to awakening? I finished the game with my Dalish elf warrior woman who romanced Leliana and sparred logain and though that ending was awsome. I had the Dalish feuneral, Leliana and Logain moarned me and was set on fire. Tragically I deleted the save since occording to early mags "If your warden dies the save will not carry over to the Dragon Age sequal." Boy do I regret that now. I'm doing a differant dalish elf and hopeing to do what I did before and see what would happen when doing so.

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Understandable. I know what a retcon is and I assumed a handwave was a simple explaination given for plot inconsistancies.

The beauty of handwaving is you can use for damn near everything you can think of an explanation for. 

And I think Morrigan fans had it better before Witch Hunt came out. Morrigan's now either got the Warden at her side, a god baby, no god baby, in Orlais, or wherever the mirror took her...with whoever she may or may not have taken.

She's going to be a writing nightmare if they use import data. They may just establish a canon with her just to save them three months of writing all the different types of cameos and roles she'd have to play when she shows up again.

Heh, from the perspective of trying to work it into a future game Witch Hunt just made it worse, yeah. At the time I was just happy that they were finally letting them reunite, after the dark days between DA2's annoucement and the WH annoucement. 

The importer is so freaking bugged though - and there's always one related to Morrigan flags whenever a transfer occurs - that I'm starting to think Bioware is just going to have to create their own save game generator or modifier or whatever just to get everything working properly. They can't canonize anything with Morrigan, unfortunately, the uproar over that will make the complaints about Leliana look like a...very small uproar. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Well, however Leliana was revived, at least it was "explained" in some way.

An Ultimate Sacrifice-Warden just appearing alive and well in Awakening, retconning what might possibly be the most personal choice in Origins, is a much bigger problem in my eyes.

Yeah. But I got over that long ago. The Ultimate Sacrifice ending, to me, was the best ending of the whole game. That was the one I used the most. When I heard Awakening could have you play as an Orlaisan Warden Commander, I just assumed loading in a Dead Warden would have you play this new character.

When it didn't...well....then I kinda stopped playing characters that ended up with the US ending.

I think, some day soon, BioWare's just going to say the Warden made the deal with Morrigan. If for nothing else to resolve the Old God Baby plot-line. It's a big question, a truly grey choice since we have no idea what the consquences of that could ever be.

But imagine one day they'll need to answer it, and I doubt the import function will keep track of it. Especially if they answer it in a game in another console generation.

Why they even bothered with the Orlesian Warden character, I never fully understood either: you'd think it would be there to accomodate those whose Wardens sacrifices themselves for the greater good, not for new players. In my eyes, it seems like no one that didn't already have Origins would've simply bought the expansion, 'standalone' or not.

I get that the Old God Child plotline has huge potential for a future story, but it simply is poor taste to retcon choices in a series that quite frankly is about making choices. Either make them matter or don't give them to us in the first place.

krasnoarmeets wrote...

I always thought that Ultimate Sacrifice choices made in Origins were horribly cheapened by the '*poof* you're alive' attitude in Awakening. I always thought that an Ultimate Sacrifice save should be able to be imported into Awakenings, but played out as an Orlesian warden. That always stuck in my craw.

I had a Templar character (deeply religious HM) in Origins who romanced Leliana and her only who made the ultimate sacrifice. I remember finding the epilogue touching where it said that Leliana had quietly vanished. Some say the Maker came to her in a vision that night. Smiling, tears in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last. Then she turns up in Kirkwall (with that very save) and behaves as if her cat died. *Harumph*

I agree on that choice being cheapened horribly by Awakening: Before, I would have used it as a prime example of how death of a main character could be executed properly in a videogame. Today, I'd say it's one of the worst executions of it I have seen, mainly because they didn't take the time to explain it: we have a setting with magic, wizards and witches, any explanation would have sufficed. Instead, we got a small part in a FAQ saying that they were willing to handwave it if we were...

The thing that really amazes me, though, is that we have people either complaining about the fact that the gameplay is improved upon in such a way that it could be considered 'streamlined', or some minor continuity "errors" (epilogue, codex, etc.), while major stuff such as the retconning of deaths is simply ignored by the community.

[krasnoarmeets]

Agreed. A world with magic and wizards where death is supposed to be final. There is supposedly no spell for resurrections in this world... and yet here we are.

[TheBlackBaron]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Why they even bothered with the Orlesian Warden character, I never fully understood either: you'd think it would be there to accomodate those whose Wardens sacrifices themselves for the greater good, not for new players. In my eyes, it seems like no one that didn't already have Origins would've simply bought the expansion, 'standalone' or not.

I get that the Old God Child plotline has huge potential for a future story, but it simply is poor taste to retcon choices in a series that quite frankly is about making choices. Either make them matter or don't give them to us in the first place.

Speculation is that Awakening was always intended to be the Orlesian Warden's story, and that it later had the Hero of Ferelden shoehorned into it. This is usually pared with the idea that supposedly the Dark Ritual was added into the game late in development (which also explains why they weren't able to create the multiple versions the writers intended - you get the one size fits all scene of the game), with the Ultimate Sacrifice originally being the only option. This was done to allow future games using the Warden, after the success of Mass Effect in deciding to feature Shepard as the protaganist of a pre-planned trilogy of games. 

This is just stuff I've heard second- and third-hand, there's no real way to confirm it. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 15 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Speculation is that Awakening was always intended to be the Orlesian Warden's story, and that it later had the Hero of Ferelden shoehorned into it. This is usually pared with the idea that supposedly the Dark Ritual was added into the game late in development (which also explains why they weren't able to create the multiple versions the writers intended - you get the one size fits all scene of the game), with the Ultimate Sacrifice originally being the only option. This was done to allow future games using the Warden, after the success of Mass Effect in deciding to feature Shepard as the protaganist of a pre-planned trilogy of games. 

This is just stuff I've heard second- and third-hand, there's no real way to confirm it. 

Hmm, makes some sense if true. I guess that if that was truly the case, the lesson to be learned would probably be something along the lines of "Don't start work on an (expan)sequel when the original isn't finished yet".

[Ksandor]

Do you notice that you are all giving these explanations to OP to justify this so called Canon (!) and yet DA II never tells what happened to Anders and Justice and such, and there is no definite Canon officially backed by Bioware. As a player of course I can justify any discrapency I want. But well...

You obviously miss the point. Good explanations you make. But the game itself should have made them not you. Bioware says "I pulled a story with no substance and solid basis out of my hat which I think would make my game to sell more to casual players because they are the majority. We made many abritrary choices for that --But Hell! It is our franchise. We are the Powers That Be! We can't be bothered with Canon for some people won't like the official story anyway. So believe what you want if you care so much for honestly we don't care" and this is a honest attitude to the fan base how?

Modifié par Ksandor, 15 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[krasnoarmeets]

That was my original point