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Focusing the Plot


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#1
Foolsfolly

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Over on the General discussion forum there's a thread about a recent Game Informer interview with Mike Laidlaw. Here's that link.

I'm going to focus on one particular question and answer:

GI: Meredith plays a significant role late in the story, but is largely absent for the rest of the game. Why keep a prominent antagonist in the background for so long?

ML: The "prominent antagonist" is a staple of fantasy, be it the brooding eye of Sauron or the endless hordes of the archdemon. For Dragon Age II, we wanted to attempt something different and break the mold and try to vilify circumstance, rather than a specific evil. It's a story of how heroes are made, not born, and I think that by the same token, it's a story of how the antagonist need not always be the villain. To me, that's a very human tale. I believe the early game likely could have used some additional appearances by Meredith, but we were likely being over-cautious of her being perceived as a source of confusion or frustration for players: "I think she's important, but she feels disconnected from my current goals!"


As has been said many times there's nothing wrong with that idea; in fact, it's a rather great idea. The problem is focus. If your story is going to be about the Mage/Templar conflict then it needs to be consistantly about that conflict.

We're introduced early to it with Wesley and Bethany. Our introduction to Kirkwall is the Gallows, we see first hand where the mages are imprisoned.

The problem is most of the game does not focus on that. There's the Deep Roads Expedition which seems in the game entirely to set up something later (DLC or DA3). There's the Qunari storyline, which is the best storyline in the whole game but it has nothing to do with the Mage/Templar circumstance.

I think there was a way to do the "no villain" idea with this. By creating two opposing sides of the argument that are believable. Getting involved with that story earlier, including meeting the key players in that story, and then over the course of the game the situtation and characters could evolve.

I don't know if you could 'vilivify' a circumstance or not (you probably could an illness or plague), but you could have offered two different but equally correct stances on circumstance. There wouldn't be a villain. In fact, you could create your own antagonist through your actions (maybe a sibling) and give the players a bitter victory.

As is, it's like every act is its own story. The first act's story is just saving up money. The second act is the superior storyline and the third act is brief, devoid of choice, and involving characters who lack the depth of the Grand Cleric or Viscount (and there's only a handful on conversations with either of those characters).

I'm beating a dead horse, I know. But these interviews feel an awful bit like "Hey, we tried something different and you couldn't keep up." Instead, it's a great idea but it felt like they crammed too much into a game that had too short of a development cycle to flesh out all the different bits. They likely would have pulled off this whole thing with another half year. Hell, just another month of game testing would have saved us from game breaking bugs.


#2
txgoldrush

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You put WAY too much focus on the Mage vs Templar conflict and not the big picture.

The big picture is how Hawke has to deal with the dark side of humanity (and can even fall to it), the Mage vs Templar conflict is just one piece of it.

#3
Foolsfolly

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Dark side of humanity? Really?

#4
TheBlackBaron

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Dark side of humanity? Really?


Maybe txgoldrush's copy of the game came with a Light Side/Dark Side meter? 

#5
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Dark side of humanity? Really?


yep, pay attention to the story....

greed, revenge, zealotry, not coping with loss, almost every enemy Hawke comes across and every situation he or she is in is caused from the weakness of the human condition. Even his or her allies apply.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 15 avril 2011 - 06:22 .


#6
Foolsfolly

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It's just that "dark side of humanity" is so vague that nearly any game with a villain or a well-intending villain could say it was about "the dark side of humanity."

#7
txgoldrush

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See Viscount quote when he is grieving for his son....

"What hope for this city have when we fail our own so completely?"

#8
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

It's just that "dark side of humanity" is so vague that nearly any game with a villain or a well-intending villain could say it was about "the dark side of humanity."


However, the main theme of the game is how the dark side of the human condition esclates or instigates conflict, bad situations, and tragedies.

#9
TheBlackBaron

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txgoldrush wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Dark side of humanity? Really?


yep, pay attention to the story....

greed, revenge, zealotry, not coping with loss, almost every enemy Hawke comes across and every situation he or she is in is caused from the weakness of the human condition. Even his or her allies apply.


...You could claim this about every single story ever that has a conflict of some kind. That's the most weaksauce argument I've ever heard. 

Fauxlosophic BS does not make up for a very poor execution of the story. Nor is the idea of a villain-less story some amazingly innovative idea that nobody has ever thought of before, despite what Laidlaw would like to think. Other media have done it and done it much better. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 15 avril 2011 - 06:32 .


#10
txgoldrush

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Dark side of humanity? Really?


yep, pay attention to the story....

greed, revenge, zealotry, not coping with loss, almost every enemy Hawke comes across and every situation he or she is in is caused from the weakness of the human condition. Even his or her allies apply.


...You could claim this about every single story ever that has a conflict of some kind. That's the most weaksauce argument I've ever heard. 

Fauxlosophic BS does not make up for a very poor execution of the story. Nor is the idea of a villain-less story some amazingly innovative idea that nobody has ever thought of before, despite what Laidlaw would like to think. Other media have done it and done it much better. 


See the main theme I just explained....

You cannot refute that that was what the game is about. Even parts of the script prove my point. The story is VERY consistant in regards to its theme.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 15 avril 2011 - 06:35 .


#11
Foolsfolly

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Yeah, that doesn't hold water.

It's not about the dark side of humanity any more than it's about emergent technologies changing and challenging the existing world just because Varric has an epic crossbow.

If a story has any character depth then characters will behave in positive and negative ways (for whatever reason). Just because the game has characters who do good or bad things does not mean the plot is all about people doing good or bad things.

Also, it's hard to justify here with Anders being driven insane by Justice, a weaken Veil causing more abominations and demons, and an idol driving Meredith insane. It's a little easier to justify during the qunari storyline, but a better theme for that is racial and religious prejudice not a blanket term like "dark side of humanity."

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 15 avril 2011 - 06:44 .


#12
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Yeah, that doesn't hold water.

It's not about the dark side of humanity and more than it's about emergent technologies changing and challenging the existing world just because Varric has an epic crossbow.

If a story has any character depth then characters will behave in positive and negative ways (for whatever reason). Just because the game has characters who do good or bad things does not mean the plot is all about people doing good or bad things.

Also, it's hard to justify here with Anders being driven insane by Justice, a weaken Veil causing more abominations and demons, and an idol driving Meredith insane. It's a little easier to justify during the qunari storyline, but a better theme for that is racial and religious prejudice not a blanket term like "dark side of humanity."


Is it the lyrium idol fully responsible or is Meredith's fanaticism also in play? She was pretty fanatical well before she bought the idol.

Actually Anders hatred of the Templars warped Justice. Its HIS fault.

Abominations and demons would not be in play if it wasn't for humans taking their deals to achieve power.

Pay attention to the script, multiple times it makes mention of the theme I talked about.

#13
TheBlackBaron

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txgoldrush wrote...

Is it the lyrium idol fully responsible or is Meredith's fanaticism also in play? She was pretty fanatical well before she bought the idol.

Actually Anders hatred of the Templars warped Justice. Its HIS fault.

Abominations and demons would not be in play if it wasn't for humans taking their deals to achieve power.

Pay attention to the script, multiple times it makes mention of the theme I talked about.


Loghain was paranoid about the Orlesians and deeply nationalistic, sparking civil war. Zatharian hated humans for killing his family and created the werewolves. Behlen and Harrowmont were blinded by ambition and caused the conflicts in Orzammar. The magisters wound up creating the first the Darkspawn because of their lust for power. Therefore DA:O is all about the dark side of humanity and its effects on the world. 

Do you see how ridiculous this argument is? Reducing it to something that simplisitc means that every story ever can claim that its themes are the dark side of humanity. 

FF hit the nail on the head. A story featuring people doing bad things and causing conflict does not mean that the plot is about people doing bad things. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 15 avril 2011 - 06:55 .


#14
Foolsfolly

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It's not a theme. And I hate resorting to this under normal circumstances but never once has a dev in any interview talked about how the story was about the dark side of humanity.

You typically hear: "Rise of the Champion" before the game came out and "Mages" after it was out. Even the quote in the OP from Mike is about how the circumstance in Kirkwall, not about any nature of humanity.

I hate resorting to Word of God but there you go. It's never once been mentioned that the whole point of the game is about human nature.

#15
txgoldrush

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Is it the lyrium idol fully responsible or is Meredith's fanaticism also in play? She was pretty fanatical well before she bought the idol.

Actually Anders hatred of the Templars warped Justice. Its HIS fault.

Abominations and demons would not be in play if it wasn't for humans taking their deals to achieve power.

Pay attention to the script, multiple times it makes mention of the theme I talked about.


Loghain was paranoid about the Orlesians and deeply nationalistic, sparking civil war. Zatharian hated humans for killing his family and created the werewolves. Behlen and Harrowmont were blinded by ambition and caused the conflicts in Orzammar. The magisters wound up creating the first the Darkspawn because of their lust for power. Therefore DA:O is all about the dark side of humanity and its effects on the world. 

Do you see how ridiculous this argument is? Reducing it to something that simplisitc means that every story ever can claim that its themes are the dark side of humanity. 

FF hit the nail on the head. A story featuring people doing bad things and causing conflict does not mean that the plot is about people doing bad things. 


No, DAO is about sacrifice heroes must make to overcome adversity (which DAO does poorly). In fact, until the endgame, DAO doesn't know what it wants to be about, unlike other bioware games like Jade Empire and Mass Effect 2. This is one reason why DAO's story is weak and unfocused. DAO features humans (or human like beings) doing bad things but its not about them doing bad things. Why? Because its not the main conflict.

The main conflict in DAII DOES revolve around the theme I mentioned. Notice how in the endgame Bethany even says "this injustice was caused by men". Men doing bad things causes the main conflict of DAII. Not so in DAO.

#16
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

It's not a theme. And I hate resorting to this under normal circumstances but never once has a dev in any interview talked about how the story was about the dark side of humanity.

You typically hear: "Rise of the Champion" before the game came out and "Mages" after it was out. Even the quote in the OP from Mike is about how the circumstance in Kirkwall, not about any nature of humanity.

I hate resorting to Word of God but there you go. It's never once been mentioned that the whole point of the game is about human nature.


and what causes the circumstances in Kirkwall?

#17
Foolsfolly

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It comes down to having three dimensional characters. Which this game does have. I don't slam the game for having bad characters, I may even prefer this set of characters to the ones in Origins.

But whenever you have three dimensional characters than human nature is involved. YES, the dark side of humanity factors into the mage question. Because it's a struggle with human characters that many characters feel strongly about.

That doesn't mean that's the plot. That's just a good sturdy foundation for the characters. BioWare deserves applause for its character work in this game.

The PLOT is the purpose of the story and this thread. The plot of the game has to be about the mages because so much of the game talks about it, and when in doubt look at the climax of the story, what was the climax? It was the first battle of a war for Mage Freedom, it sparked a world-wide revolution.

What does that suggest the plot was about? Now, why is the plot so absent for much of the game? Is that a problem?

I think it is a problem.

#18
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

It comes down to having three dimensional characters. Which this game does have. I don't slam the game for having bad characters, I may even prefer this set of characters to the ones in Origins.

But whenever you have three dimensional characters than human nature is involved. YES, the dark side of humanity factors into the mage question. Because it's a struggle with human characters that many characters feel strongly about.

That doesn't mean that's the plot. That's just a good sturdy foundation for the characters. BioWare deserves applause for its character work in this game.

The PLOT is the purpose of the story and this thread. The plot of the game has to be about the mages because so much of the game talks about it, and when in doubt look at the climax of the story, what was the climax? It was the first battle of a war for Mage Freedom, it sparked a world-wide revolution.

What does that suggest the plot was about? Now, why is the plot so absent for much of the game? Is that a problem?

I think it is a problem.


But its NOT the plot of the game....the PLOT of the game (on Hawke's side) is how Hawke became the Champion and became embroiled in the conflicts of the city that lead toa worldwide conflict. This includes the Qunari conflict as well.

In fact, the true main plot is actually Cassandra learning that Hawke was not fully responsible for what happened.

The plot is not soley about the Mage vs Templar conflict. Its just the conflict at the end of the game.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 15 avril 2011 - 07:18 .


#19
TheBlackBaron

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txgoldrush wrote...

No, DAO is about sacrifice heroes must make to overcome adversity (which DAO does poorly).


Not by your logic. Why must heroes make sacrifices? To overcome how the dark side of humanity creates conflict!

In fact, until the endgame, DAO doesn't know what it wants to be about, unlike other bioware games like Jade Empire and Mass Effect 2. This is one reason why DAO's story is weak and unfocused. DAO features humans (or human like beings) doing bad things but its not about them doing bad things. Why? Because its not the main conflict.


Weak and unfocused? DA:O's story was hardly the most innovative of plotlines, but you always, always knew what your goal was and what you were supposed to be doing - build up allies, defeat Loghain and unite the country, kick Darkspawn ass. In fact, one can argue that because for about 75% of the game the Darkspawn are completely in the background, the conflicts inherent in gathering the allies and then the Landsmeet against Loghain is the real conflict of the story. Which, again, by your logic, makes it completely about "the dark side of humanity". 

The main conflict in DAII DOES revolve around the theme I mentioned. Notice how in the endgame Bethany even says "this injustice was caused by men". Men doing bad things causes the main conflict of DAII. Not so in DAO.


No, it really doesn't. The whole game is building towards how Hawke's rise to Champion and his role in Mage-Templar conflict makes her or him the "most important person in Thedas" - this is Word of God stuff here. You can, of course, once again claim that it's about the dark side of humanity sparking this conflict, but that's just as much of a gross oversimplification as it ever was. 

#20
Foolsfolly

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If you're pulling the Cassandra card then the plot is "Why and how did Hawke cause a Templar/Mage War."

See how again the Mages are the plot?

#21
txgoldrush

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, DAO is about sacrifice heroes must make to overcome adversity (which DAO does poorly).


Not by your logic. Why must heroes make sacrifices? To overcome how the dark side of humanity creates conflict!

In fact, until the endgame, DAO doesn't know what it wants to be about, unlike other bioware games like Jade Empire and Mass Effect 2. This is one reason why DAO's story is weak and unfocused. DAO features humans (or human like beings) doing bad things but its not about them doing bad things. Why? Because its not the main conflict.


Weak and unfocused? DA:O's story was hardly the most innovative of plotlines, but you always, always knew what your goal was and what you were supposed to be doing - build up allies, defeat Loghain and unite the country, kick Darkspawn ass. In fact, one can argue that because for about 75% of the game the Darkspawn are completely in the background, the conflicts inherent in gathering the allies and then the Landsmeet against Loghain is the real conflict of the story. Which, again, by your logic, makes it completely about "the dark side of humanity". 

The main conflict in DAII DOES revolve around the theme I mentioned. Notice how in the endgame Bethany even says "this injustice was caused by men". Men doing bad things causes the main conflict of DAII. Not so in DAO.


No, it really doesn't. The whole game is building towards how Hawke's rise to Champion and his role in Mage-Templar conflict makes her or him the "most important person in Thedas" - this is Word of God stuff here. You can, of course, once again claim that it's about the dark side of humanity sparking this conflict, but that's just as much of a gross oversimplification as it ever was. 


No the heroes make sacrifces to kill LOTR style orcs and a big dragon. Its not a human threat.

But is not...its  a secondary conflict. The primary conflict is between the Wardens and the Spawn. And instead of connecting the midgame quests well to the main plot, unlike KOTOR or Mass Effect, other than a plot coupon, these quests do not play a role in the main story. In KOTOR, two of the planets deal with the Sith, and Sith chases you on two others. in Mass Effect, you fight geth and Sarens allies on all the midgame worlds. The only quest that dealt with the spawn was the dwarven one, but that wasn't the main conflict in that quest. Its DAO that feels more like a bunch of short stories crammed together, much more than DAII.

And what CAUSES the Mage/ Templar conflict? Could it be human zealotry and mistrust? As well, the moderate faction in Act III falls apart due to Graces need for revenge. And the power vacuum caused by the Act II conflict and an idol brought into the city by a greedy action in Act I helped lead to the Act III conflict.

In fact, unlike DAO, the main conflict of the city CHANGES as the whole game goes on. It was the Qunari conflict where Hawke was even made to be Champion and play an important role in the Mage/Templar conflict.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 15 avril 2011 - 08:22 .


#22
Kaiser Shepard

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Like said before, the plot and characters are - as expected - more than excellent. However, the introduction of some characters, mainly Meredith and Orsino, is indeed done in such a way that the narrative suffer for it. The fact that the duo which Arc III revolves around are introduced in the Act II finale, only 5 minutes apart from each other, seems to suggest that the team only at the last minute realized that they also had to wrap up the Mage/Templar-conflict somehow.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 avril 2011 - 08:00 .


#23
txgoldrush

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The true main conflict of the story is not Mage vs Templar...its Hawke vs the dark side of human nature. Even in Act I, this theme holds true. if Gamlen did not stupidily gamble all his money away, ther emay not have been a need to go to the Deep Roads. The murder of Hawke's mother REALLY brings the theme out.

Even Hawke can fall and do inhumane and greedy actions, as much of Hawke's motives are determined by the player. And he doesn't win, he loses. And he can be corrupted by the city and the zealotry as much as anyone else or he can attempt to rise above it and try to play peacemaker.

Not only that, both Meredith and Orsino are killed because of their character flaws, her zealotry and his despair. Which also fits the theme I presented.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 15 avril 2011 - 08:17 .


#24
Ksandor

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txgoldrush wrote...

The true main conflict of the story is not Mage vs Templar...its Hawke vs the dark side of human nature. Even in Act I, this theme holds true. if Gamlen did not stupidily gamble all his money away, ther emay not have been a need to go to the Deep Roads. The murder of Hawke's mother REALLY brings the theme out.

Even Hawke can fall and do inhumane and greedy actions, as much of Hawke's motives are determined by the player. And he doesn't win, he loses. And he can be corrupted by the city and the zealotry as much as anyone else or he can attempt to rise above it and try to play peacemaker.

Not only that, both Meredith and Orsino are killed because of their character flaws, her zealotry and his despair. Which also fits the theme I presented.


This has never occured to me. And I do not consider myself a casual player. But maybe it never occured to me because there was no focus and story was not told as it should be. If they say we made an innovation but you silly people don't get it maybe this is because they do not tell the story as it should be. If you had said that the Bioware had great ideas for DA II story then I would agree. But you also say that they tell a great story in DA II, and that their narrative is great. I disagree. But we are all entitled to our opinion.

BTW to further my analogy... DAO's ideas were not great. DAO did not have an original story. Bannorn vs Loghain conflict, the United States inspired Ferelden politics and government was far more original than the LOTR type Darkspawn and "We Americans or Canadians or whatever DO love our dogs (Mabari hounds)" story. But DAO told a great story. For goodness sake just look at Battle of Ostagar and see how Cailan dies. See how cinematic and dramatic it is. And look at DA II prologue where super hero Hawke pulls amazing stunts to slaughter the Darkspawn in amazing Matrix ways and just think again how this makes DA II's narrative superior to DAO? Obviously we have different tastes. I will make it plain. I prefer Dragon Age Origins and Baldur's Gate if a game does not focus on story or at least the narrative to compensate for the lack of focus - even if Bioware had great ideas for DA II I would dismiss the game for its lack of focus AND inferior narrative.

ME 2 lacked focus too. But ME 2's narrative, drama, humor, cinematics and character development are far more superior to DA II. So although I don't like games which lack focus I adore ME2. It is an excellent space opera. ME2 told a great story. Overcoming bad side of the human nature? Well look at Zaed, Overlord, Samara and other people. Then look back to DA II. DA II does not appeal to me. And because of that some people dislike DA II and think it as an inferior product. What is DAII anyway? Which category does this game belong? To its own category?

Well in that case abominations are fascinating too in their "What the hell is wrong with you people kind of way"; in their unfocused, formless, corrupted and twisted semi human (uncomplete freaky game) way...

Modifié par Ksandor, 15 avril 2011 - 09:26 .


#25
doloreg

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Foolsfolly wrote...




As has been said many times there's nothing wrong with that idea; in fact, it's a rather great idea. The problem is focus. If your story is going to be about the Mage/Templar conflict then it needs to be consistantly about that conflict.

We're introduced early to it with Wesley and Bethany. Our introduction to Kirkwall is the Gallows, we see first hand where the mages are imprisoned.

The problem is most of the game does not focus on that. There's the Deep Roads Expedition which seems in the game entirely to set up something later (DLC or DA3). There's the Qunari storyline, which is the best storyline in the whole game but it has nothing to do with the Mage/Templar circumstance.

I think there was a way to do the "no villain" idea with this. By creating two opposing sides of the argument that are believable. Getting involved with that story earlier, including meeting the key players in that story, and then over the course of the game the situtation and characters could evolve.

I don't know if you could 'vilivify' a circumstance or not (you probably could an illness or plague), but you could have offered two different but equally correct stances on circumstance. There wouldn't be a villain. In fact, you could create your own antagonist through your actions (maybe a sibling) and give the players a bitter victory.

As is, it's like every act is its own story. The first act's story is just saving up money. The second act is the superior storyline and the third act is brief, devoid of choice, and involving characters who lack the depth of the Grand Cleric or Viscount (and there's only a handful on conversations with either of those characters).

I'm beating a dead horse, I know. But these interviews feel an awful bit like "Hey, we tried something different and you couldn't keep up." Instead, it's a great idea but it felt like they crammed too much into a game that had too short of a development cycle to flesh out all the different bits. They likely would have pulled off this whole thing with another half year. Hell, just another month of game testing would have saved us from game breaking bugs.


You, my good and logical sir, are wrong. The conflict between the two sides is the theme that runs through the game.
A good story teller never shows the unimportant parts of the story. You wouldn't read LotR if it had 200 scenes in which they do nothing but eat and walk.
In da2 it's handled rather well.

Act1:
You go into the deep roads, (your reasons for this are unimportant in case of the theme, but quite important in case of the story) and find the Idol.
Firstly it seems like a minor plot element, but it's Chekhov's gun, being the reason behind Meredith's downfall.
The expedition also secures your position in Kirkwall, making you somebody, which will be important later on.

Act2:
The qunari issue is more connected than you might think.
You get nticed by the ruling class because of the expedition, and you get caught in the political maelstorm
It has two points:
-You become champion, making you actually influential, which plays a role in act3

-The Viscount is killed. And that's the main point. The Viscount was the peacekeeper in Kirkwall, ruling both templars and mages. While his grip was far from firm, he managed to handle the situation and keep the two parties quiet. With him gone, there's no peace, no third party, and no ruuler.
This is the very thing that allowed act3 to happen.

act3:
Without someone to whatch over them the two opposing parties are raging hard.
There's no chance for real peace, only some compromise.
You are the champion, and people listen to you, so your opinion is important.
You still are able to support neither to a certain degree, but it's just avoiding the inevitable.
When Janders kills the Grand Cleric, all chance of compromise is lost.
You have to choose a side and support freedom or order.

Without showing how you become influental, how the third party is lost, or how you're forced to choose a side, the story ould make no sense. These are all essential parts. The story is not mages vs. templars, it's the mirth of a champion and the start of a revolution.

Even if you disagree with how it was handled, it's much better than "You're the hero, kill a dragon".