224 réponses à ce sujet

[Sanguinerin]

Sabriana wrote...

The reason Mr. Laidlaw draws so much fire originates with the man himself.

No one expects him to trash DA 2, it's not even two month out of the gate and no DLC and/or Exp packs have been offered. They're a business, and a business wants to generate profit.

However, he opens himself up to ire and anger with his own statements. When he describes DA 2 and its features, phrases like "MY vision", "MY choices", "I wanted", "I decided" etc. pop up frequently. He states that a certain build in DA:O was "His personal peeve that he did away with in DA 2".
Thus, in many peoples mind, he is the one who had not only the final say-so, but had his hand in many areas of the game and its design.

He also does not need to show his intense hatred of DA:O so pointedly. In verbal and non-verbal communication. He is constantly bashing and trashing DA:O, and acts as if it is the worst piece of trash ever to grace the planet.

Mr. Laidlaw also needs to stop insulting the core fan base of RPG games. He does so in numerous ways, from "too old to accept change", to "too stupid to grasp anything but simple things." That is not good business. The first law in business should always be: "Don't trash a successful product that came out of our own stables" and "under no circumstances should you insult your most loyal customers, ever".

That last interview was a PR disaster imo. He should stop. He really should be stopped from giving interviews, he is not doing himself and bioware any favors. The more he talks the worse it gets. It almost seems as if he purposely offers himself up as a scapegoat, wanting to draw the ire and anger to himself alone.

I have nothing against the man. I never even met him, know nothing about him. But I am getting very annoyed by his interviews. Annoying me to the point of anger is quite hard, but he manages quite nicely.

I agree so much with you.

I did not get that much enjoyment out of Dragon Age II. There were a few little moments or favorite characters, but I still haven't replayed it after my first run. I wouldn't want to condemn BioWare for one game that I didn't particularly like, but between David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw's responses, I'm losing interest quickly thanks to the two of them.

John Epler has been one of the few voices of reason, and Jennifer Hepler has had a few good posts. There's mostly quiet as far as I can tell from other developers (I pretty much click every post with the "BioWare" logo underneath to see where they're responding--although most of the time it's Epler making a "be civil" post).

I wish that the other developers/writers would speak up more, even if I disagree with them in the end. I'm tired of seeing "deal with it" posts from Gaider or "I don't understand the negative reaction" interviews from Laidlaw.

[Monica83]

for me ladiaw is a nice designer for another game not for dragon age...so yes i agree with you

[Everwarden]

Siven80 wrote...

If you really think one man can make or break a game you seriously need help.

I must need help. He's the lead designer, and he broke Dragon Age 2 (and likely the entire saga with it). A director can be the sole factor in the failure of a movie (remember those Star Wars prequels?), and he was the director (so to speak) of DA2.

So why is it his fault? A series of very bad calls. With such a time crunch, resources were spent reworking the visual theme and the combat when the draw of the original was story, characters, and decisions affecting the world at large. The visual theme was a complete failure, and everyone who has working eyes knows it. Look at what they did to darkspawn, and elves, and that isn't even starting in on the recycled cave and warehouse. 

Now he adds insult to injury (financial injury, I can't refund my copy of this turd <_<) and claims that "some" people dislike it, but "lots" of people love the new direction. Let's be realistic, even if you love this game the 'some people' who dislike it are the majority, and the 'lots of people' who love the new direction are not. 

Then he points to the 'high professional review scores', ignoring the 3-4 score from users on metacritic. Remember, please, that the users who review the game actually have to shell out money for it, where the professional reviews are just that: professional reviews. It isn't in the financial best interest of a gaming magazine or website to offend one of the largest publishers when they get checks due to advertising for said publishers.

Laidlaw likely just doesn't want to face facts and admit (even to himself) that his 'vision' of what Dragon Age should be is widely disliked. Hopefully EA will fire him when DA2 doesn't sell half as well as their projected goal, or at least move him to a different project where button=awesome is more appropriate. 

[_Aine_]

If I were them, I wouldn't post as often as some DO frankly.    Like speaking up on Aztec Sacrifice day when they are a sacrifice short of fresh bodies.   Nuh-uh.  I'd stay pretty darn quiet.  Dangerous place, this.  

Besides, it is kind of crazy, to be frank, to expect them to come here and publically admit that they think they made huge mistakes (if they even think that) or trash their workplace.   Maybe they agree, maybe they think we are gripping tightly to the past, maybe they think DA2 was fantastic and we are all morons.  *shrug*  But I wouldn't expect them to look at their paychecks and then come here, with their Bioware flag waving in the wind and then tell us "Oh, then, right.  Sorry?"  

I guess I dislike the finger pointing attached to games.   Can't we de-personalize our disappointment a bit and keep it civil at least?
 

Modifié par shantisands, 15 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[MingWolf]

Everwarden wrote...

So why is it his fault? A series of very bad calls. With such a time crunch, resources were spent reworking the visual theme and the combat when the draw of the original was story, characters, and decisions affecting the world at large. The visual theme was a complete failure, and everyone who has working eyes knows it. Look at what they did to darkspawn, and elves, and that isn't even starting in on the recycled cave and warehouse.

Now he adds insult to injury (financial injury, I can't refund my copy of this turd /images/forum/emoticons/angry.png) and claims that "some" people dislike it, but "lots" of people love the new direction. Let's be realistic, even if you love this game the 'some people' who dislike it are the majority, and the 'lots of people' who love the new direction are not.

Agreed, its time well wasted, and it doesn't take much to catch all the rough edges.

Yeah. He completely ignores the reactions of the "some" people, people who like the other group spent the lesser or greater of $60 to purchase the game. Its even more irritating when he stands on the line of "people don't like this game because its not DA:O 2"-type arguments. Not only is that just blaming the customers, its ignorance.

[rcollins1701]

[Unnecessarily confrontational post removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 15 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[Sanguinerin]

shantisands wrote...

Besides, it is kind of crazy, to be frank, to expect them to come here and publically admit that they think they made huge mistakes (if they even think that) or trash their workplace.   Maybe they agree, maybe they think we are gripping tightly to the past, maybe they think DA2 was fantastic and we are all morons.  *shrug*  But I wouldn't expect them to look at their paychecks and then come here, with their Bioware flag waving in the wind and then tell us "Oh, then, right.  Sorry?"  

I guess I dislike the finger pointing attached to games.   Can't we de-personalize our disappointment a bit and keep it civil at least?

I don't expect any of the writers to come here and admit that Dragon Age II was a mistake. I would certainly like to hear from them, however, even if we end up in disagreement. It's a matter of presentation. All of the developers do well at responding to positive feedback, but there are some that I see as much better at responding to negative feedback.

I would never ask for the developers to come onto the forums and bash their own work. I'm sure that they derive a lot of satisfaction from it regardless of our opinions because it is the result of their dedication and hard work. However, it seems that any time I see Gaider or Laidlaw respond to negative criticism, I turn away from looking forward to future Dragon Age titles. Their approach to responses usually end up in "this is the way it is, I/we like it, that's it--you can stay and accept it or move on" rather than actually responding constructively in turn.

Do they owe us any sort of explanation? No.

However, I would pretty much prefer silence over any of their responses to negative criticism. Dragon Age II not standing up to my expectations wouldn't turn me away from the franchise completely. Their responses generally push me in that direction.

[Everwarden]

rcollins1701 wrote...

Unless Bioware sends me a certified, hand-written letter with airfare and expenses paid to Edmonton so that The Doctors can tell me in person that the next game that they're going to spend millions making is tailored exactly for my personal tastes, I won't be buying any of their games, either.

I mean, I've played their games in the past, so I'm obviously the most important person in the gaming world as my gaming preferences are the Platonic ideal of any gaming preferences, and the gaming preferences that everyone wished they had (whether they know it or not); plus, my money spends better than anyone else's—screw it, they should make ME lead designer for all of their games! CEO, too! Otherwise, I certainly won't be buying anything Bioware.

 Having fun taking a ballbat to that poor strawman? 

[Kimberly Shaw]

rcollins1701 wrote...

I'll tell you what: you all are on to something here!

Unless Bioware sends me a certified, hand-written letter with airfare and expenses paid to Edmonton so that The Doctors can tell me in person that the next game that they're going to spend millions making is tailored exactly for my personal tastes, I won't be buying any of their games, either.

I mean, I've played their games in the past, so I'm obviously the most important person in the gaming world as my gaming preferences are the Platonic ideal of any gaming preferences, and the gaming preferences that everyone wished they had (whether they know it or not); plus, my money spends better than anyone else's—screw it, they should make ME lead designer for all of their games! CEO, too! Otherwise, I certainly won't be buying anything Bioware.

What a tool you are making yourself appear to be in this post. Did you even read what people wrote in the thread or just the topic title was enough to make you write this and appear to so ridiculous?

[Everwarden]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...
. There is nothing wrong with that, and we don't need little 13 year old twerps, or possibly in your case a grown man with a 13 year old twerps personality... attacking us for that. Go suck on a hose attached to an exhaust pipe.

*facepalm* Now the thread is going to get locked. 

[Ayanko]

Most definitely...

[MingWolf]

I don't expect any of the writers to come here and admit that Dragon Age II was a mistake. I would certainly like to hear from them, however, even if we end up in disagreement. It's a matter of presentation. All of the developers do well at responding to positive feedback, but there are some that I see as much better at responding to negative feedback.

Agreed.

Just as a spin-off here, one of the things I admired about Obsidian entertainment when NWN2 came out, despite the similar mixed responses on the forum, was that they actually talked to the grieving fans and asked for their feedback on how to improve the game. There was one particular person whom I got acquainted with on some server who posted an image of the dude on the box-cover of the game showing a middle finger and more or less making fun of some service failure that Obsidian had promised and never delivered. It was actually kind of funny, and the devs probably would have been a tad bit embarrassed, but nonetheless they came out on the forums and had a good laugh themselves. Admirable.

The whole "this is the way it is" thing, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame Bioware for this, or Laidlaw, but when you make such broad assumptions for the customers who paid for your game and put them off for simply not liking your game the way you had envisioned it, it isn't constructive at all.

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...
Well you can disagree, but while you don't have to focus on the waves of enemies the archdemon's hp bar is long.  You guys need to stop pretending DA 2 is that much different than DA:O. It just makes you sound like you either didn't like the first one or you're just wanting to pile on.

Just don't try to involve actual fact.

One battle and the final battle to boot vs almost every battle in DA2. That qualifies as very different.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 15 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[John Epler]

Civility costs you nothing.

Hostility and insults, however, will earn you a warning at the very least, and perhaps a ban.

Disagree all you like, but treat each other with respect. That's all I ask.

[Mecher3k]

rcollins1701 wrote...

I'll tell you what: you all are on to something here!

Unless Bioware sends me a certified, hand-written letter with airfare and expenses paid to Edmonton so that The Doctors can tell me in person that the next game that they're going to spend millions making is tailored exactly for my personal tastes, I won't be buying any of their games, either.

I mean, I've played their games in the past, so I'm obviously the most important person in the gaming world as my gaming preferences are the Platonic ideal of any gaming preferences, and the gaming preferences that everyone wished they had (whether they know it or not); plus, my money spends better than anyone else's—screw it, they should make ME lead designer for all of their games! CEO, too! Otherwise, I certainly won't be buying anything Bioware.

Is this Mike Laidlaw's troll account?!

[Mecher3k]

JohnEpler wrote...


Disagree all you like, but treat each other with respect. That's all I ask.

Funny you say that in a thread a about a person who said crap like "PC gamers just play on hard!" and blames the customer for not liking the game.

Oh the irony.

[John Epler]

I should also mention - strawmanning is also not acceptable behaviour.

[Annarl]

Sabriana wrote...

The reason Mr. Laidlaw draws so much fire originates with the man himself.

No one expects him to trash DA 2, it's not even two month out of the gate and no DLC and/or Exp packs have been offered. They're a business, and a business wants to generate profit.

However, he opens himself up to ire and anger with his own statements. When he describes DA 2 and its features, phrases like "MY vision", "MY choices", "I wanted", "I decided" etc. pop up frequently. He states that a certain build in DA:O was "His personal peeve that he did away with in DA 2".
Thus, in many peoples mind, he is the one who had not only the final say-so, but had his hand in many areas of the game and its design.

He also does not need to show his intense hatred of DA:O so pointedly. In verbal and non-verbal communication. He is constantly bashing and trashing DA:O, and acts as if it is the worst piece of trash ever to grace the planet.

Mr. Laidlaw also needs to stop insulting the core fan base of RPG games. He does so in numerous ways, from "too old to accept change", to "too stupid to grasp anything but simple things." That is not good business. The first law in business should always be: "Don't trash a successful product that came out of our own stables" and "under no circumstances should you insult your most loyal customers, ever".

That last interview was a PR disaster imo. He should stop. He really should be stopped from giving interviews, he is not doing himself and bioware any favors. The more he talks the worse it gets. It almost seems as if he purposely offers himself up as a scapegoat, wanting to draw the ire and anger to himself alone.

I have nothing against the man. I never even met him, know nothing about him. But I am getting very annoyed by his interviews. Annoying me to the point of anger is quite hard, but he manages quite nicely.

This is what bothers me the most about Mr. Laidlaw.  He seems to think the game should reflect his choices and not the player's choices.  

[FedericoV]

Volourn wrote...

The ones ultimately responsible are the BIO docs. Getting rid of Laidlaw woudl change very little. The overarching goal for BIO would be the same. For good and ill, the docs are the one in control. The good news is they really don't give a crap what you think of them.

Worst case scenario is BIO goes under and they get to retire with the billlion dollars EA paid them to purchase BIO. HA!

And the winner is... Volourn!

[_Aine_]

JohnEpler wrote...

I should also mention - strawmanning is also not acceptable behaviour.

I have learned a new word.  Strawmanning.      

[Sabriana]

HallowedWarden wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Besides, it is kind of crazy, to be frank, to expect them to come here and publically admit that they think they made huge mistakes (if they even think that) or trash their workplace.   Maybe they agree, maybe they think we are gripping tightly to the past, maybe they think DA2 was fantastic and we are all morons.  *shrug*  But I wouldn't expect them to look at their paychecks and then come here, with their Bioware flag waving in the wind and then tell us "Oh, then, right.  Sorry?"  

I guess I dislike the finger pointing attached to games.   Can't we de-personalize our disappointment a bit and keep it civil at least?

I don't expect any of the writers to come here and admit that Dragon Age II was a mistake. I would certainly like to hear from them, however, even if we end up in disagreement. It's a matter of presentation. All of the developers do well at responding to positive feedback, but there are some that I see as much better at responding to negative feedback.

I would never ask for the developers to come onto the forums and bash their own work. I'm sure that they derive a lot of satisfaction from it regardless of our opinions because it is the result of their dedication and hard work. However, it seems that any time I see Gaider or Laidlaw respond to negative criticism, I turn away from looking forward to future Dragon Age titles. Their approach to responses usually end up in "this is the way it is, I/we like it, that's it--you can stay and accept it or move on" rather than actually responding constructively in turn.

Do they owe us any sort of explanation? No.

However, I would pretty much prefer silence over any of their responses to negative criticism. Dragon Age II not standing up to my expectations wouldn't turn me away from the franchise completely. Their responses generally push me in that direction.

I agree that it's the responses we get that are annoying. "Deal with it", "It's the customer's fault", and "We don't care, we'll just get new customers" just doesn't cut it when the customer bought a product for a whopping 56 euros on biowares reputation and the successful predecessor of a game. It comes across as arrogant and uncaring.

The customer is not always right, but neither are they always wrong. Insulting already irate paying customers is a very bad business practice - one that usually does not end well for the company and the product.

However, I also understand the bioware people not coming into the critique threads. What could they possibly say? They can't bash the game, that would also be bad business practice, and it might cost their jobs.

While there are many reasonable people here, there are also those who seem extremely upset to the point of lashing out wildly. Why should the bioteam risk being swarmed and attacked? They would be, you know. I would bet on that.

If there was a way to respond to the critics in a reasonable way, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't mind, but the danger of being insta-swarmed by the highly upset, and being pushed into an indefensible position is far too great.

So in all, I agree that utter silence would be the best. Don't respond anywhere, and most of all, please stop insulting your up-to-now loyal fanbase.

[Everwarden]

shantisands wrote...
  Strawmanning.      

For those that don't know, strawmanning is the practice of attacking your opponent's argument not by addressing the argument itself, but erecting an intentionally over-the-top, ridiculous version and then easily defeating the constructed argument (or straw man), appearing to have successfully made a case without actually having to address the true meat of the argument. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[FedericoV]

Sabriana wrote...
that it's the responses we get that are annoying. "Deal with it", "It's the customer's fault", and "We don't care, we'll just get new customers" just doesn't cut it when the customer bought a product for a whopping 56 euros on biowares reputation and the successful predecessor of a game. It comes across as arrogant and uncaring.

Honestly, I've not read the "deal with it" thing. If anything, Laidlaw seems like a very humble and polite guy to me.  Having said that, DA2 has allways been presented as a radical change from DA:O and there was even a free demo. So, I do not think that anyone can attack Bioware or Laidlaw, if they bought the game out of impulse.