21 réponses à ce sujet

[Thaddeus Mynor]

Does Blood Magic specifically require you to make a deal w/ a Demon (in the Dragon Age lore so to speak. I know in game you don't have to)?

So, If blood magic does comes from making a deal w/ a specific demon. What happens, like in Merril's case, when you kill the demon you made a deal with? Would you technically be free of any consequence then? or would you lose your ability to cast said style of magic?

If you don't lose your ability, why don't mages just have separate harrowings to become blood mages, where they just have to kill their demons?

(again, I know that In-Game, you don't lose your ability. But from a Lore/Canon perspective?)

Modifié par Thaddeus Mynor, 15 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I'm pretty sure blood magic doesn't require a bond of sorts with a demon; it's just that the knowledge has been 'lost' on Thedas and most if not all demons happen to have said knowledge. A good example would be Grace, who didn't make a deal with a demon herself (that we know of), but was instead taught by her lover.

[Mnemnosyne]

Demons may or may not have been the ones to initially teach blood magic to mortals, but beyond that they are in no way required for blood magic, either to learn or to be effective. Demons are apparently supposed to be a relatively easy-to-contact source to learn blood magic, if you don't happen to have a teacher or a book handy.

Beyond that, the reasons blood magic is considered bad aren't purely demon-based, there's also the considerably more practical reason that it's the only known magic that allows mind control. It also allows mages to tap an effectively unlimited source of power if only they can kill enough people for blood, so it is considered a temptation due to this.

[Thaddeus Mynor]

Oh! Well, Thank you both very much. I did not know that. Gives me something to think about now

[Icy Magebane]

Somebody here told me that demons can't even be killed... they're just "banished." So I guess, if that's true, then you can never actually destroy a demon, and whatever pact you made with it will be active until you die.

[LobselVith8]

Thaddeus Mynor wrote...

Does Blood Magic specifically require you to make a deal w/ a Demon (in the Dragon Age lore so to speak. I know in game you don't have to)?

Jowan apparently learned blood magic from books, and the Warden can learn it from a book in Amaranthine if he didn't already learn it from the Desire Demon in Redcliffe. Anders even asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident or if she learned it from a demon.

[Maria Caliban]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Somebody here told me that demons can't even be killed... they're just "banished."

This is correct. A demon isn't alive as it doesn't have a body. It has a manifestation that you're disrupting.

Killing a demon in the mortal realm just sends it back to the Fade. I imagine a demon might be able to kill another demon by overwhelming it and then absorbing it.

[Torax]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Somebody here told me that demons can't even be killed... they're just "banished." So I guess, if that's true, then you can never actually destroy a demon, and whatever pact you made with it will be active until you die.

A few things about demons. It's not likely possible to fully destroy them unless they are in the fade. Then in the fade you have to find their actual position in the fade. Think of it like when Morrigan in Origins said how Flemeth will bleed like any other, a knife in her heart could kill her if it's lucky enough to find it. The other main thing about Demons and Spirits is they are supposed to honor an agreement to the letter. So if you did challenge them to a fight in the fade you could get them to show their real selves and destroy them completely. But you would have to get them to agree to that little part. In Origins if you intimidated the desire demon she cannot take over connor again unless she could convince connor to form a contract again, she has to honor the deal with the Warden no matter how much she hated it.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Scrolls of Banastor suggest that some mages, in fact, do the refuse: they trick demons and become their masters. Tarohne's discussion about the magisters seems to confirm/reinforce that possibility.

[Torax]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Scrolls of Banastor suggest that some mages, in fact, do the refuse: they trick demons and become their masters. Tarohne's discussion about the magisters seems to confirm/reinforce that possibility.

Demons and Spirits alike are flawed and individuals. The game just can't portray this well to the player. So for example we just see things like Avernus calling a bunch of demons and then has apparently has a mix up in his calculations that meant he couldn't control them. Not like they could have given the time to see how it was all done or if deals were made with them all. I do like how in Origins you can basically get the demon to leave Connor alone at fear of her own death.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Well, the only time we see it happen is during situations as when Hadriana and Danarius summon demons to fight the player--and then it's a combat mechanic, rather than discussed in dialog.

[Maria Caliban]

Torax wrote...

The other main thing about Demons and Spirits is they are supposed to honor an agreement to the letter.

I think this is fanon. The Sloth demon in the Fade tells you that if he possesses Fadryal, he'll never bother the mortal realm or seek to destroy Kirkwall, but it's a complete lie.

Desire demons seem to honor agreements but that might be due to their nature. After all, an agreement is often a list of things two bodies want from the other.

I can see a rage demon making an agreement just to break it. They're probably the demonic equivalent of trolls.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 15 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Fallstar]

Thaddeus Mynor wrote...

Does Blood Magic specifically require you to make a deal w/ a Demon (in the Dragon Age lore so to speak. I know in game you don't have to)?

So, If blood magic does comes from making a deal w/ a specific demon. What happens, like in Merril's case, when you kill the demon you made a deal with? Would you technically be free of any consequence then? or would you lose your ability to cast said style of magic?

If you don't lose your ability, why don't mages just have separate harrowings to become blood mages, where they just have to kill their demons?

(again, I know that In-Game, you don't lose your ability. But from a Lore/Canon perspective?)

It doesn't necessarily. Blood Magic was first introduced on Thedas when the first Archon of the Tevinter Imperium conversed with Dumat in his dreams. exchanging knowledge for worship. Blood Magic originates from the Old Gods. Perhaps thats how they managed to turn humanity away from the Maker for the first time?

[Fallstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Somebody here told me that demons can't even be killed... they're just "banished."

This is correct. A demon isn't alive as it doesn't have a body. It has a manifestation that you're disrupting.

Killing a demon in the mortal realm just sends it back to the Fade. I imagine a demon might be able to kill another demon by overwhelming it and then absorbing it.

What if we kill said demon in the Fade? Does it die there?

[Torax]

SirLogical wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Somebody here told me that demons can't even be killed... they're just "banished."

This is correct. A demon isn't alive as it doesn't have a body. It has a manifestation that you're disrupting.

Killing a demon in the mortal realm just sends it back to the Fade. I imagine a demon might be able to kill another demon by overwhelming it and then absorbing it.

What if we kill said demon in the Fade? Does it die there?

Yes and no. If what you are fighting is a vision of them and not really their person is the thing. You could be fighting a creation by said demon to appear as them if that makes sense. Why to truly kill them may require forcing them to appear there via a challenge. If the demon is willing to go that far. The Sloth Demon who was an Abomination in the Broken Circle. But once you find his actual demon self in the Fade you end him for good. In theory. The same reason that you can threaten the desire demon with their death in the case of Connor. You managed to track her to her den. It truly depends on the demon you are fighting though. Their stength and so on.

I doubt a rage demon would try to trick and use a fake version of themselves. They are more fueled by just a want of war and anger. A Desire demon could probably try to trick you but they tend to be more interested in what mortals desire. Sloth look for the easy way out for the most part. Pride on the other hand. Is like all of those mixed into one giant bottle of something twisted.

Edited to add the hunger thing. Yeah they just focus on well consuming and what not. Almost feels like a off shoot of desire demons.

Modifié par Torax, 15 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

^ If you can't die as a spirit in the 'real world', why did Justice merge with Anders? I understand this was done only as a last resort.

[Benchmark]

An official comment about blood magic would be interesting.

In game there are conversations that state specifically that you have to make a deal with a demon. The idea of learning about blood magic from books is available, but they don't explain what is in the books. The books could just be manuals that teach you how to safely contact and deal with the demons. Also, many blood magic tomes are referred to as having demons bound in them, ie the Forbidden Tomes quest tomes. So perhaps the tomes you learn from actually are a shortcut to contacting the demons bound in them.

Until some story writer better explains blood magic, any definitive answer is impossible and you can only make suppositions. Since it is a single player game and you are free to RP some, just decide what you like most.

Personally I went with the idea that blood magic requires a demon to help you harness more power from the fade than you could naturally.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Personally I went with the idea that blood magic requires a demon to help you harness more power from the fade than you could naturally.

From Bioware on blood mages and blood magic:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[IanPolaris]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

^ If you can't die as a spirit in the 'real world', why did Justice merge with Anders? I understand this was done only as a last resort.

Justice was a special case if there ever was one.  Normally a demon (or spirit I would presume) has a 'domain' or 'realm' in the fade and they project into the moral world from that domain.  In such a case killing the demon in our world would not kill the demon (but may make it difficult for the demon to get back to our world anytime soon).

Justice, however, appearently when fighting the Baroness (a powerful pride demon) had his entire existance domain and all forcible transplanted in the real world.  That's why I think Justice was so desperate for a host.  If he dies in our world, he dies for good since he lacks a connection back to the fade (i.e. lack his own fade domain).

These are only guesses on my part but they are based on the game lore.

-Polaris

[Emperor Iaius I]

Justice was definitely removed from the Fade. Recall his comments if you take him into the Fade to help Feynriel, and recall how Karl remarks that Anders brought a bit of the Fade with him.

[Rylor Tormtor]

IanPolaris wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

^ If you can't die as a spirit in the 'real world', why did Justice merge with Anders? I understand this was done only as a last resort.

Justice was a special case if there ever was one.  Normally a demon (or spirit I would presume) has a 'domain' or 'realm' in the fade and they project into the moral world from that domain.  In such a case killing the demon in our world would not kill the demon (but may make it difficult for the demon to get back to our world anytime soon).

Justice, however, appearently when fighting the Baroness (a powerful pride demon) had his entire existance domain and all forcible transplanted in the real world.  That's why I think Justice was so desperate for a host.  If he dies in our world, he dies for good since he lacks a connection back to the fade (i.e. lack his own fade domain).

These are only guesses on my part but they are based on the game lore.

-Polaris

Although, doesn't Anders make a comment that Justice will live on after he is dead? 

[LobselVith8]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Although, doesn't Anders make a comment that Justice will live on after he is dead? 

Anders does, and since Justice survives being in Kristoff's body, it's possible he'll survive Ander's death. Again, it's speculation since this time Anders and Justice merged. The Rivain seers would probably have much more information on spirits merging with mages.