248 réponses à ce sujet

[LedGabriel]

Thread is too long to read everything so I'll just reply to the OP and the first and last 5 or so posts.



Just as in BG, there should be an option to it, as easy as it was in BG, a simple checkbox. If you want detailed info, there you go, if you don't and are happy with the general "this is better" "this is worse", then fine.



I am in favor of the detailed info, I like mechanics as much as the story. Specially now with the Dragon Age Pen and Paper RPG, I want to see how related it is.

[IntrinsicPALO]

I'll add my vote. I like to know all the little details i can get my hands on. Ie i'd like to see hard numbers in the tooltips instead of vague descriptions which mean nothing. A combat log would be handy too.

[Exalonn]

/signed

[FedericoV]

Don't care about combat log but a real ruleset instead of the actual "manual" and detailed description of each item/ability would be very nice.

Modifié par FedericoV, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Aprudena Gist]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I explained this already in a different thread - these are thee different issues.

a) combat log - ain't gonna happen.

A debug for scripters log might happen as we support mod builders, but such a thing would just allow you to use log statements from scripts - most likely to an external source like a file - it would not be he 'combat log' most people have been asking for.

c) detailed descriptions - not as impossible as (a), but certainly out of the cost scope of anything smaller than a full fledged expansion pack. We certainly would like it, but then again, we like horses and flying too, so don't get too optimistic, there is some realities that tend to interfere with even things we like very much.

The most likely outcome is probably

d) Someone creates a new talk table with the descriptions they would like using the toolset.

I've elaborated on this extensively in two other threads already - so I'm not gonna repeat the details anymore and my opinion on petitions is well known - they only make sense if you're actually trying to prioritize between two popular features, just asking people 'who else wants free pie' generally yields 'yes'.

How the hell are we supposed to under stand mechanics exactly when there is no where describing what they are and how the function?

[Thrasher91604]

Is this a game or a dumbed down simulation?

I think it should be a game, so this petition gets my vote!

Modifié par Thrasher91604, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[Ghandorian]

do you mean exactly for creating new combat mechanics? Or understand generally by observation intuition based on what works ingame?

[danbosko]

+1



Also, so far all of the posts I've read from Bioware have basically said, "Oh, you want something? Too bad, suck it, but buy our DLC."

[Rianames]

+1



Yup, this is the new trend, money grabbing ftw...



But that besides, when you introduce a new ip/gameworld and you fail to show the mechanics/numbers/stats how can you expect the players to understand your new gameworld?



I don't mind reading the skills as they are in the game, but Bioware at least could have put a printed leaflet in dvd cases or, for those only downloading it, put the stats on a seperated section of their homepage.



I trust the PnP version does feature stats or how would you even play without?

[Godeshus]

danbosko wrote...

+1

Also, so far all of the posts I've read from Bioware have basically said, "Oh, you want something? Too bad, suck it, but buy our DLC."

I've seen many posts by various Bioware staff mentioning that feedback from the community is very helpful for them and that they are always listening. This has proved itself by the amount of posts I've seen by the Devs themselves. Most of these posts also mention that saying things like "Your game sucks! Change it" is the same as not posting at all. If you were to perhaps make a suggestion in regards to how you would like to see these things, I'm sure your opinion of Dev responses would change.

[Statue]

I do understand what's been said with regard to having to make difficult decisions and compromises based upon whether to include one feature or another. I also understand how problems can arise when trying to meet deadlines, and have clearly arisen with regard to the in-game descriptions (though I am surprised that it's a case of "yeah, we screwed up the scheduling so they didn't turn out how we wanted and that's how we're leaving it" rather than "yeah, we screwed up the scheduling so they didn't turn out how we wanted them but intend to address them in patching").

I'm not saying that a combat log would be the only solution or is the only feature that could possibly provide players with specific information that they could use to inform decisions (though I can't deny that a combat log was the method of choice in some of my favourite tactical RPGs, cos it was - the beauty of the log is its multi-purpose nature, useful both during combat to provide feedback as to what's going on, and after combat to help refine strategies).

But even accepting the *specific* feature vs feature decisions (e.g. a combat log vs something else entirely) and scheduling issues, I'm somewhat surprised that all those decisions taken as a whole entail that the player is not provided with sufficient information to inform gameplay decisions. I would have thought that the decision, for example, to not give a combat log would have raised questions like "Ok, so if we don't have a combat log, how do we make sure the player knows what is going on in combat?", with some other mechanism decided upon to do that fundamental job (I suspect the question was considered and the mechanism thought sufficient was the floaties - which unfortunately don't cover it). Other similar games manage without logs precisely because they use an alternative way of delivering that feedback (e.g. inspectable enemies, tabs for targets that show icons for debuffs/buffs/immunities in effect on enemies, countdowns for debuffs, etc.) but those aren't in DAO either (specifically for enemies).

The feedback in DAO boils down to 2 types of feedback - graphical feedback and the floaties. The graphical feedback sometimes works, in some cases. So, for example, it's clear visually when an enemy is simply frozen. But with other effects, it's not so clear from visuals, and in cases where there are multiple effects simultaneously operating on an enemy, it's even less clear. And then there's the floaty feedback, which is both too ephemoral and too non-specific. "Immune" appears and fades amongst numerous other floaties across loads of characters on a big battlefied. Easily missed, but even if it is spotted, it's unclear which of the numerous simultaneous attacks on that enemy the floaty refers to. The shortcomings of the feedback are made more prominent by the vague descriptions for things - those are a separate issue, but they contribute to the overall paucity of specific information to inform player choices.

So in short I think it's fine to decide not to have any one of the specific features that might convey the necessary information, whether it's a combat log or any other particular feedback mechanism; but ommitting *all* functional feedback mechanisms without providing a compensatory feature that takes on the role of those absent features  (and as said above visuals and floaties don't serve as a comprehensive enough alternative) leaves players with a lot of unanswered and unanswerable questions about what is going on in any given combat situation - and that means they aren't in as firm a position to choose between possible courses of action and instead are encouraged to adopt more generic tactical decisions regardless of what's actually happening.

Modifié par Statue, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:48 .

[Yxiomel]

Detailed descriptiosn woudl be nice, so you can actually judge the value of a talent, but frankly, I would settle for talent descriptions that are actually correct! Just look at the Berserker tree, for example - Berserk and Resilence contradict each other. There are a number of talents that are just completely misdescribed.

[MarloMarlo]

No combat log doesn't bother me at all. But not knowing how long a spell's effect lasts or what the casting time is and things like that irritates me and fills me with fear whenever I level up and pick a spell mostly so I can someday get the second, third or fourth in the row. Is it worth it to get Mass Paralyze or should I instead get Glyph of Repulsion and Paralyze (for the AOE paralyze combo)? I don't know because I don't know how different they are! (Well, now I do, but it shouldn't take trying them both out to figure it out when there's a description right there that's supposed to tell you by describing the spell.)

[danbosko]

Godeshus wrote...

danbosko wrote...

+1

Also, so far all of the posts I've read from Bioware have basically said, "Oh, you want something? Too bad, suck it, but buy our DLC."

I've seen many posts by various Bioware staff mentioning that feedback from the community is very helpful for them and that they are always listening. This has proved itself by the amount of posts I've seen by the Devs themselves. Most of these posts also mention that saying things like "Your game sucks! Change it" is the same as not posting at all. If you were to perhaps make a suggestion in regards to how you would like to see these things, I'm sure your opinion of Dev responses would change.

I haven't read a contructive post by a dev yet.  They're either an excuse for doing some part of the game poorly or a "thank you" to some fanboi's "OMFGWTF Teh gamE is teh WIN!!" thread.
And, perhaps if my suggestion wasn't already in the name of the thread, I would have typed it out...Also, posting a stupid post that barely pertains to anything going on around it in an attempt to defend Bioware is worse then not posting at all.  It makes me hate you and your drooling fanboi friends even more.

[wanderon]

danbosko wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

danbosko wrote...

+1

Also, so far all of the posts I've read from Bioware have basically said, "Oh, you want something? Too bad, suck it, but buy our DLC."

I've seen many posts by various Bioware staff mentioning that feedback from the community is very helpful for them and that they are always listening. This has proved itself by the amount of posts I've seen by the Devs themselves. Most of these posts also mention that saying things like "Your game sucks! Change it" is the same as not posting at all. If you were to perhaps make a suggestion in regards to how you would like to see these things, I'm sure your opinion of Dev responses would change.

I haven't read a contructive post by a dev yet.  They're either an excuse for doing some part of the game poorly or a "thank you" to some fanboi's "OMFGWTF Teh gamE is teh WIN!!" thread.
And, perhaps if my suggestion wasn't already in the name of the thread, I would have typed it out...Also, posting a stupid post that barely pertains to anything going on around it in an attempt to defend Bioware is worse then not posting at all.  It makes me hate you and your drooling fanboi friends even more.

My what a sensitive and eloquent statement to define your stance with - that will no doubt get those devs to sit up and take notice of you and let them know on no uncertain terms that you are no one to be trifled with. I can almost hear the gasp as they read it and step back in fear...

[Statue]

Ok, progress made on the in-game descriptions front.

Bibdy has released a mod putting the numbers into descriptions, see thread social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/357780 for details.

Screeny below shows an example of how the mod updates the spell description for Winter's Grasp:

Modifié par Statue, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:35 .

[Sibelius1]

wanderon wrote...

danbosko wrote...


I haven't read a contructive post by a dev yet.  They're either an excuse for doing some part of the game poorly or a "thank you" to some fanboi's "OMFGWTF Teh gamE is teh WIN!!" thread.
And, perhaps if my suggestion wasn't already in the name of the thread, I would have typed it out...Also, posting a stupid post that barely pertains to anything going on around it in an attempt to defend Bioware is worse then not posting at all.  It makes me hate you and your drooling fanboi friends even more.

My what a sensitive and eloquent statement to define your stance with - that will no doubt get those devs to sit up and take notice of you and let them know on no uncertain terms that you are no one to be trifled with. I can almost hear the gasp as they read it and step back in fear...

His points may not be sensitively and eloquently put, but I personally see a lot of truth in them. Why would being sensitive and eloquent make developers sit up and take notice anyway? The sheer amount of negative feedback they have received regarding the descriptions/hidden mechanics dictates that they should have taken notice not how polite people were about it.

The fact is though that they have been dismissive of all calls for improved descriptions and information on mechanics regardless of the tone used. The issue has now been addressed by an unofficial mod, which would suggest that Bioware are happy sitting back and watching user made mods correct major problems in their games.

Are you happy with that?

[boardnfool86]

-1



A big thanks to BioWare for not...



Making this a D&D game or Baldur's Gate sequel

Not making this turn based

Excluding a combat log



Who wants to do math while they save the world? Seriously? If Thedas was a place you could physically visit do you think warriors calculate damage or mages calculate spells, no, they just fight it out. During the cut scenes do the darkspawn and your allies whip out pen and paper? No. Turn based combat removes you form the world, and Dragon Age is so immersive why would you want to take a break. Pausing to issue orders make since but for each side to go one at a time is silly... you have to do that with pen and paper and older games, but video games have advanced beyond turn based.



As for the combat log... because simply playing this game isn't nerdy enough, you would like to do pointless math? You can figure out what things do in your head fairly quickly.



As for more detailed descriptions... it's a little annoying you have to fiddle with your equipment to figure out an item bonus, but other than that, whatever



The game isn't perfect, but suggestions from right field are just silly (a little off topic, but this game was not built to be an MMO so I have no idea why people insist it should be)

[wanderon]

Sibelius1 wrote...

wanderon wrote...

danbosko wrote...


I haven't read a contructive post by a dev yet.  They're either an excuse for doing some part of the game poorly or a "thank you" to some fanboi's "OMFGWTF Teh gamE is teh WIN!!" thread.
And, perhaps if my suggestion wasn't already in the name of the thread, I would have typed it out...Also, posting a stupid post that barely pertains to anything going on around it in an attempt to defend Bioware is worse then not posting at all.  It makes me hate you and your drooling fanboi friends even more.

My what a sensitive and eloquent statement to define your stance with - that will no doubt get those devs to sit up and take notice of you and let them know on no uncertain terms that you are no one to be trifled with. I can almost hear the gasp as they read it and step back in fear...

His points may not be sensitively and eloquently put, but I personally see a lot of truth in them. Why would being sensitive and eloquent make developers sit up and take notice anyway? The sheer amount of negative feedback they have received regarding the descriptions/hidden mechanics dictates that they should have taken notice not how polite people were about it.

The fact is though that they have been dismissive of all calls for improved descriptions and information on mechanics regardless of the tone used. The issue has now been addressed by an unofficial mod, which would suggest that Bioware are happy sitting back and watching user made mods correct major problems in their games.

Are you happy with that?

Truth? I see no truth all I see is a slavering tantrum throwing child stamping his his foot and demanding to get his own way. Nor do I see the lack of a combat log as a major problem - in fact I don't see it as a problem at all so yes I am in fact happy that Bioware is choosing not to waste precious zots on fixing something that is not broken.

[Mikey_205]

BG style sequencers were almost in :*( I've been dying for those.

[Sibelius1]

wanderon wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

wanderon wrote...

danbosko wrote...


I haven't read a contructive post by a dev yet.  They're either an excuse for doing some part of the game poorly or a "thank you" to some fanboi's "OMFGWTF Teh gamE is teh WIN!!" thread.
And, perhaps if my suggestion wasn't already in the name of the thread, I would have typed it out...Also, posting a stupid post that barely pertains to anything going on around it in an attempt to defend Bioware is worse then not posting at all.  It makes me hate you and your drooling fanboi friends even more.

My what a sensitive and eloquent statement to define your stance with - that will no doubt get those devs to sit up and take notice of you and let them know on no uncertain terms that you are no one to be trifled with. I can almost hear the gasp as they read it and step back in fear...

His points may not be sensitively and eloquently put, but I personally see a lot of truth in them. Why would being sensitive and eloquent make developers sit up and take notice anyway? The sheer amount of negative feedback they have received regarding the descriptions/hidden mechanics dictates that they should have taken notice not how polite people were about it.

The fact is though that they have been dismissive of all calls for improved descriptions and information on mechanics regardless of the tone used. The issue has now been addressed by an unofficial mod, which would suggest that Bioware are happy sitting back and watching user made mods correct major problems in their games.

Are you happy with that?

Truth? I see no truth all I see is a slavering tantrum throwing child stamping his his foot and demanding to get his own way. Nor do I see the lack of a combat log as a major problem - in fact I don't see it as a problem at all so yes I am in fact happy that Bioware is choosing not to waste precious zots on fixing something that is not broken.

I wasn't talking about a combat log as being the problem (although I think it is), I was talking about vague descriptions of talents, spells and other game mechanics, and some of the decriptions are indeed "broken", as in they convey completely false information. This has now been fixed by a member of the community.
Lead programmer Georg admits the information tooltips in their current form are not what he intended, but despite that,  there is no intention to fix them in a patch. So, if they are unwilling to fix something that is BROKEN, and they have maintained this stance throughout all their forum postings, tell me, what they have said on this matter that is constructive. Therein lies the truth in Danbosko's post.

[Gliese]

I don't know about you guys but I would accept a significant performance hit in order to have a combat log. It's not as if this game has steep requirements anyhow, I'm running everything maxed in 1920 wide with a computer that was mid/high -end 2 years ago.



About the descriptions, have to agree with Statue. If the only reason they are omitted is a lack of time then it ought to be patched in. That mod looks to be excellent btw. ^



I'll take whatever we can get though, persistent floaties would definitely help even if I still have to commit every status effect on enemies to memory and make some guesses now and then when multiple talents/spells are affecting an enemy at once.

[Statue]

boardnfool86 wrote...
If Thedas was a place you could physically visit do you think warriors calculate damage or mages calculate spells, no, they just fight it out.

Player knowledge and character knowledge are not and need not be the same thing. Your Thedas warrior probably doesn't have the ability to reload a previous save point or pause the game, or know what the fatigue % for a helmet is, but you as the player do. You know how to make decisions for four characters across various classes and how to install a computer game, but it's likely that the warrior you're roleplaying doesn't. If you can only roleplay a character if you and it have the exact same knowledge of the world, then you can pretty much wave goodbye to roleplaying anything other than yourself, and your characters in a fantasy setting will be capable of some technically advanced stuff (Sten gets +100 XP for phoning for a pizza).

If you are saying that you *would* have a realism problem with numbers in spell and talent descriptions, presumably you *do* have a realism problem with all the other parts of the game where numbers are very much present? Because you have to realize that levelling up and selecting new talents and spells happens considerably less often than changing equipment, fighting, and using items - all of which *do* involve you seeing numbers.

Modifié par Statue, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Gliese wrote...

About the descriptions, have to agree with Statue. If the only reason they are omitted is a lack of time then it ought to be patched in. That mod looks to be excellent btw. ^

They should spend their time doing things only they can do. We can make a simple talktable mod easily enough