248 réponses à ce sujet

[Broloc]

Gotta love how everyone mentions WoW when numbers are involved when Bioware has made rpgs in the past that involve SERIOUS number crunching. Stop mentioning WoW (an mmorpg) and comparing it to a single player game where "twinking" is not as "important" or relevant.

[Seifz]

Broloc wrote...

Gotta love how everyone mentions WoW when numbers are involved when Bioware has made rpgs in the past that involve SERIOUS number crunching. Stop mentioning WoW (an mmorpg) and comparing it to a single player game where "twinking" is not as "important" or relevant.

Oh, whatever.  If you think that this game wasn't seriously influenced by WoW, you're delusional.  There's nothing else to say about that.

People mention WoW because it's 1) very popular, 2) very current, and 3) a perfect example of a game in which the numbers are all right there in your face.

BioWare couldn't really hide the numbers in BG1/2, NWN, KotOR, or JE.  Those numbers were just the D&D numbers.  I used to calculate my character's theoretical damage, resistance, etc. just from looking at the d20 SRD and remembering which spells and abilities were implemented.  Good luck hiding that!

With DA:O, they made a decision to hide the numbers.  And good thing, too!

[Infiniteone2]

Better tooltips would be nice, and that's about it. People are to use to having any and every little thing handed to them on a silver platter. To an extent a certain amount of information should be available, but not too much, theorycrafters are just gonna have to be creative

[Statue]

I vote for a combat log and more specific descriptors for spells and equipment. If it can be done in a way that makes it optional/configurable, all the better to keep everyone happy.

By the way, there's a quite detailed thread on the combat log and stats issue at

http://social.biowar.../9/index/205210

And on my profile page there's a coupla polls measuring support for logs and stats (a look at the results will ensure those wanting these features won't feel alone, however much people hurl abuse at them for their preferences).

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[failsafeignition]

Wait...what? Why would anyone disagree with having a feature like this added. I mean...you could always just turn it off and play without it.



I guess I just don't understand the whole "PSSH, I don't need it or want it, so it's a dumb thing to add and anyone who wants it is also dumb" mentality.



I mean, it's not like adding a combat log would take anything away from the game. You don't want it, so you turn it off, and you're happy. Someone else does want it, so they leave it on, and they're happy. Everyone is happy.



Alternatively, it's not put in, you're still happy. But they're not happy. Why are you denying them their HAPPINESS???!?!11?! =P

[Drogo45]

Sceptic83 wrote...

I'm sick of this -1 ones. If you don't like numbers go play easy with consolle or go fps. Rpg games and strategic games do have numbers.

- 2

[Sloth Of Doom]

failsafeignition wrote...

Wait...what? Why would anyone disagree with having a feature like this added. I mean...you could always just turn it off and play without it.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "PSSH, I don't need it or want it, so it's a dumb thing to add and anyone who wants it is also dumb" mentality.

I mean, it's not like adding a combat log would take anything away from the game. You don't want it, so you turn it off, and you're happy. Someone else does want it, so they leave it on, and they're happy. Everyone is happy.

Alternatively, it's not put in, you're still happy. But they're not happy. Why are you denying them their HAPPINESS???!?!11?! =P

because the developers tha are wasting thier time on a totally unneeded feature could actally be doing something like fixing the bugs or developing more content instead of appeasing people who can;t have fun withut turning thier game into a math contest.   Also, because I am a jerk.

[Seifz]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

failsafeignition wrote...

Wait...what? Why would anyone disagree with having a feature like this added. I mean...you could always just turn it off and play without it.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "PSSH, I don't need it or want it, so it's a dumb thing to add and anyone who wants it is also dumb" mentality.

I mean, it's not like adding a combat log would take anything away from the game. You don't want it, so you turn it off, and you're happy. Someone else does want it, so they leave it on, and they're happy. Everyone is happy.

Alternatively, it's not put in, you're still happy. But they're not happy. Why are you denying them their HAPPINESS???!?!11?! =P

because the developers tha are wasting thier time on a totally unneeded feature could actally be doing something like fixing the bugs or developing more content instead of appeasing people who can;t have fun withut turning thier game into a math contest.   Also, because I am a jerk.

Plus, the "you can just turn it off" argument doesn't hold water.  If those numbers are there, I'm going to use them.  Otherwise, I'll feel like I'm missing out on a big part of the game and I'll be incredibly frustrated if I get stuck on a challenging encounter.  Instead of thinking, "How can I do this?" I'll start thinking, "Dammit, I should have built an overpowered character like I always do!"

Players tend to take the path of least resistance.  Sure, some of us will play in Nightmare so that we can flex our enormous epeens, but that's not really the same thing.  Using the numbers doesn't give you any bragging rights unless you come up with such an overpowered character that everyone starts copying you.  At that point, you've effectively ruined a large part of DA:O, which is coming up with a character that you enjoy rather than one that's 'the best."  And if you don't believe that, look at any past RPG that did give you a full-featured combat log and detailed tooltips.  They're full of powergamers!  Hell, some of the posters here are saying that BG2 is better just because they could play with the numbers!

DA:O is different.  Don't ruin it!

[Timortis]

Get real, people are already doing the math on what builds are the best DPS etc. Combat log is not necessary for that. The numbers area already there if you want to calculate. What the combat log is good for, is to use during and after fights to see exactly what happened, which of your strategies worked best and did the most damage, which of your attacks were ineffective etc. You can't always see this with so many numbers flying around above character's heads. There's been a combat log in every CRPG I've played, and there was a combat log in BG, which this game is supposed to be the spiritual successor of.



Bioware, please give us a combat log, like the one we had in BG.

[failsafeignition]

Seifz wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

failsafeignition wrote...

Wait...what? Why would anyone disagree with having a feature like this added. I mean...you could always just turn it off and play without it.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "PSSH, I don't need it or want it, so it's a dumb thing to add and anyone who wants it is also dumb" mentality.

I mean, it's not like adding a combat log would take anything away from the game. You don't want it, so you turn it off, and you're happy. Someone else does want it, so they leave it on, and they're happy. Everyone is happy.

Alternatively, it's not put in, you're still happy. But they're not happy. Why are you denying them their HAPPINESS???!?!11?! =P

because the developers tha are wasting thier time on a totally unneeded feature could actally be doing something like fixing the bugs or developing more content instead of appeasing people who can;t have fun withut turning thier game into a math contest.   Also, because I am a jerk.

Plus, the "you can just turn it off" argument doesn't hold water.  If those numbers are there, I'm going to use them.  Otherwise, I'll feel like I'm missing out on a big part of the game and I'll be incredibly frustrated if I get stuck on a challenging encounter.  Instead of thinking, "How can I do this?" I'll start thinking, "Dammit, I should have built an overpowered character like I always do!"

Players tend to take the path of least resistance.  Sure, some of us will play in Nightmare so that we can flex our enormous epeens, but that's not really the same thing.  Using the numbers doesn't give you any bragging rights unless you come up with such an overpowered character that everyone starts copying you.  At that point, you've effectively ruined a large part of DA:O, which is coming up with a character that you enjoy rather than one that's 'the best."  And if you don't believe that, look at any past RPG that did give you a full-featured combat log and detailed tooltips.  They're full of powergamers!  Hell, some of the posters here are saying that BG2 is better just because they could play with the numbers!

DA:O is different.  Don't ruin it!

The argument holds water! Buckets full, in fact!

No, but really, that's a good point. I mean, people are gonna tear apart the system now to figure out how to make the mathmatically best dude in all the land, but having the combat log readily available would make it easier.

Honestly, I'm indifferent about the whole thing. I just don't understand the negativity some people are showing for the idea. And for the production time argument, I'm sure there's already a combat log running behind the scenes -- I don't imagine it would take much to bring it to the front and put a spiffy interface around it.

[CalibanX]

I don't care to see detailed spreadsheets of every aspect of the game but what I would like to see would be some kind of happy, Pavlovian bells and whistles when a Critical Hit occurs against an opponent.



When I backstab someone and get a Critical It's not always obvious to me that it's happening. I'd like there to be a special, cool sound or brief, visual effect when it occurs so the player can feel a sense of accomplishment and thrill about it. Right now I feel like the Criticals are occurring under the hood somewhere. That's a mistake I think. Getting Ctiticals should be an obvious, joyous occasion. Not something squirreled away in the code.

[CalibanX]

Whoops. Double post.

Modifié par CalibanX, 19 novembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[Darpaek]

I heart crits.



+1



Less a full on log, I'd settle simply for detailed descriptions of what items and skills actually do.

[Legion-001]

+1

I'm getting sick of 'Improves Blood Magic' what part of blood magic does it improve? by how much?

[Statue]

This post delivers low to moderate satire and gives an undisclosed bonus to highlighting the downside of ambiguous and vague descriptions when players need to make choices based upon them.

[belowzeros]

Statue wrote...

This post delivers low to moderate satire and gives an undisclosed bonus to highlighting the downside of ambiguous and vague descriptions when players need to make choices based upon them.

that made my brain hurt.  well done

[Sceptic83]

Seifz wrote...

With DA:O, they made a decision to hide the numbers.  And good thing, too!

I repeat myself: Riddiculous! Said Lupin. Your arguments are just insane, bioware hid mechanichs not for better immersion. Maybe they don't want to spoiler to others their new d20 sys, or maybe mechs are so complicated that can't be shown so easily, or maybe they had no time for that. So I'd like an answer from someone about this issue many players are bothering about...

[Ashmaran]

I'd definitely like a combat log of some description. A number of times I have had a party member suddenly die when I didn't think they were in danger, and being able to review a log would help explain that. It would also prompt people to improve how they play the game, as they could see where they went wrong.

[mephistoex]

-1. I think the game is ok as it is. I don't necessarily mind the log being there, but I'm fine without.



The combat log things on earlier games had more to do with d&d. They've tried to distance Dragon Age from a d&d pen & paper rpgs.

[Sceptic83]

mephistoex wrote...

-1. I think the game is ok as it is. I don't necessarily mind the log being there, but I'm fine without.

The combat log things on earlier games had more to do with d&d. They've tried to distance Dragon Age from a d&d pen & paper rpgs.

Every turn based game has combat log or numbers, not only d&d...even Da:o...they are just hidden.
Maybe they don't want to spoiler to others their new d20 sys, or maybe mechs are so complicated that can't be shown so easily, or maybe they had no time for that. So I'd like an answer from someone about this issue many players are bothering about...

[JessicaGlenn]

+10. This should counter every negative number. Also, numbers do matter.

[Godeshus]

Why does it have to be black and white? Game Options --> show detailed stats on/off.



If you're gonna use it just because it's there, that's your issue. It's not up to Bioware to hold your hand while you play your video game. If you're a number cruncher, you want to crunch numbers; if you're not, you don't.



Here's an example: Whenever playing an rpg I almost ALWAYS create a character and play for a few hours to get a feel, then start over. Sometimes I do this many times, then get tired of the game because I've played the beginning 5 times over and just don't feel like it anymore. That is an issue with me, and blame cannot be cast towards the devs for this. There's no need to critique THEM for the way YOU play. I am a fan of options, and believe it should be incorporated.

[Statue]

DAO sales would maybe not have been as good if they'd marketed it in a plain box, called it "untitled", identified it as a game by "a game development studio", described it on the back as "a sort of game compatible with some platforms and operating systems", and had an RRP of "some notes and coins". The customer wouldn't be able to make an informed choice of whether to buy it or another title with a similarly vague description. Specific details are useful when trying to make an informed choice, and I don't think the tooltips and descriptions we have in DAO are sufficient to make informed choices.

[pewbz]

Sceptic83 wrote...

I'm sick of this -1 ones. If you don't like numbers go play easy with consolle or go fps. Rpg games and strategic games do have numbers.

Since you spoke for me in the thread title, I feel like I have to throw a -1 in there so they don't accidentally count my vote.

-1

[Godeshus]

Statue wrote...

DAO sales would maybe not have been as good if they'd marketed it in a plain box, called it "untitled", identified it as a game by "a game development studio", described it on the back as "a sort of game compatible with some platforms and operating systems", and had an RRP of "some notes and coins". The customer wouldn't be able to make an informed choice of whether to buy it or another title with a similarly vague description. Specific details are useful when trying to make an informed choice, and I don't think the tooltips and descriptions we have in DAO are sufficient to make informed choices.

fantastic comparison. +5 to you, sir.