248 réponses à ce sujet

[Rurikhan]

I don't really care either way, but I do find amusing that a lot of people think themselves math genius after analizing that +1 damage will actualy become +5 once you add in talent X or Y ...



Does it really matter ? Does it make you that much more hardcore ? It confuses me not to see the numbers myself since I've always been kind of a min-maxer (result of playing too much MMOs), but this game is not (nor should it be) about stats.



But if you're that kind of a person you can always analyze the numbers that pop up on screen and do the math yourself ? Or is it that hard ? I thought that was the whole point, playing hard, hardcore number-crunching. This is a story driven tactical RPG, you main dude might have the best stats in the game, and yet someone else can be a lot better than you because they spent more time analyzing the synergies and tactics in their party instead of number-crunching the hell out of every single possible build.

[Malcroix]

COMBAT LOG +1

I find it infinitely amusing that some people appear to be actually AFRAID of having a combat log, because they'll see how much their characters suck.

To these people, I'll say: your characters SUCK - so DEAL WITH IT.

If you're comfortable with having an inferior character and getting whipped in encounters - then why object to the OPTION of having a combat log?

If you're NOT comfortable with inferior characters - then the combat log and detailed spell/talent descriptions will HELP you properly understand combat and build a better character.

The approach some of the "-1" people are adopting here stems from some sort of ridiculous insecurity over their own private gaming. "Yeah I suck, but I don't want to KNOW that I suck, and I don't want to feel motivated to improve myself". What kind of attitude is that? Defeatist.

But hey, who cares how you play your own private games. However, you are projecting your own insecurities on the entire gaming community - if you don't want to see the scary numbers, that's fine, no one's gonna FORCE you to look, BUT WHY DENY THIS OPTION TO OTHERS? That is just plain evil.

Oh, and even today a truly dedicated player can find out 90% of the details in the Toolset Wiki and by rummaging through the scripts. It takes a lot of time and effort, but it's possible. So EVEN NOW, the defeatists are NOT actually "protected", BUT those who want the details are still shafted because they've got to spend unnecessary efforts digging these details out. Thus, it's currently a lose-lose situation. Which is why having an OPTIONAL combat log and detailed descriptions of abilities is a good idea.

Modifié par Malcroix, 19 novembre 2009 - 11:30 .

[Sceptic83]

pewbz wrote...

Sceptic83 wrote...

I'm sick of this -1 ones. If you don't like numbers go play easy with consolle or go fps. Rpg games and strategic games do have numbers.

Since you spoke for me in the thread title, I feel like I have to throw a -1 in there so they don't accidentally count my vote.

-1

Go play consolle or fps than 

[Statue]

Rurikhan wrote...

I don't really care either way, but I do find amusing that a lot of people think themselves math genius after analizing that +1 damage will actualy become +5 once you add in talent X or Y ...

Does it really matter ? Does it make you that much more hardcore ? It confuses me not to see the numbers myself since I've always been kind of a min-maxer (result of playing too much MMOs), but this game is not (nor should it be) about stats.

But if you're that kind of a person you can always analyze the numbers that pop up on screen and do the math yourself ? Or is it that hard ? I thought that was the whole point, playing hard, hardcore number-crunching. This is a story driven tactical RPG, you main dude might have the best stats in the game, and yet someone else can be a lot better than you because they spent more time analyzing the synergies and tactics in their party instead of number-crunching the hell out of every single possible build.

No, it is not hard for someone even slightly competent with maths to *deduce* a lot of the things that are going on in the game. To find what actual improvements a piece of armour confers to their stats, the player *can* debuff the character, strip, then add the pieces whilst monitoring their stats. To find out what a skill actually does, they *can* choose it upon levelling up, use it a few times whilst monitoring the limited amount of feedback available from the floaty numbers over heads, then decide to either keep that skill or reload from an earlier savepoint and playtest a different choice. Alternatively, they can alt-tab out and look up the information in wikis or forum posts or in the toolset.

The player concerned with what the specific values are *can* of course use workarounds to figure out those things. My concern isn't that it's not *possible* to find specific information, as it is possible, and it isn't intellectually difficult to do so. What it is though, is cumbersome and clumsy, not conducive to smooth gameplay, and forces the player caring whether a new bit of gear is really an improvement over what they have or not out of the gaming experience to find the answer to that fundamental question. It's an artificial player challenge, when real gameplay challenges aren't about banging your head against an interface's weaknesses, ambiguities, or clumsiness. It's as artificial a challenge to the player as not providing a list of controls and requiring the player to test out what all the keys on the keyboard do. Why make the player fight the interface when they would rather be fighting their enemies and playing the game rather than playtesting it? I can appreciate it's not important to some players and very important to others, but don't see how enabling players that want to make informed choices to do so without jumping through hoops would be such a bad thing for players that aren't concerned with such things.

Stats are important in DAO. They are involved in almost every significant player interaction with the game.

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Lord Badmagic]

Just stupid we are left flailing about without any detail, missing manual site looked promising but looks to be only one person working on it and looking for help at that, I would be happy to help if I knew where to find the masses of missing information but I do not.

Modifié par Lord Badmagic, 19 novembre 2009 - 12:19 .

[Iggynous]

yes please

mainly i would like better spell descriptions. in BG2 you knew exactly how much damage a spell put out, like a number. DA:O only has a vague description for each. not helpfull when you are trying to build your quickslot bar.

[accessd]

/signed



The ability/spell descriptions are way to vague. A combatlog would have been great as well.

[ToJKa1]

Agreed. I was expecting a NWN style window detailing what's happening in the battle, especially the resistance calculations would be handy to see. "Resisted" says the floating text, but who resisted what and by how much?

[Sceptic83]

We would like a Bioware reply in which they tell us if it can be done or not, and why y or n...

[Sp0gg]

Agreed, we want to see the numbers and info for skills and spells. "Gives a chance to paralyze?" What percentage? 1%? 10%?

[dtsazza]

Sceptic83 wrote...
I bet all these -1 never played bg...

BG vet checking in with a -1.

I agree with the comparison (and distinction to) WoW.  The easier it is to do number-crunching, the more people will do it.  And that's part of my reason for being selfish and not wanting anyone to have it - it will drag the community down to a point of insisting on certain power builds and most of the forum posts will be a discussion of what combination of X, Y, Z produces the most DPS etc.

And yes, I know we get those already, but they're not as numerous as they could be.

From my personal view, I like how you only get a general concept of the effects of something, so you have to choose based on actual roleplaying rather than applying mathematical concepts to grind out the biggest numbers.  I completely agree with the "if something's there, it will be used" logic too.

After all - we do have full access to the exact effects of spells and the exact combat mechanics.  They're all published on the toolset wiki, so if you want this purely based on disclosure - you can look up exactly how everything is calculated.  I don't mind that; I'd just prefer that it's a manual, out-of-game resource for those who are interested rather than putting the calculations in the game where they'll get a lot more attention.

Plus, as for the toolbox to turn it off idea - I don't think it's an inappropriate analogy to consider them adding a warrior talent to add 500 damage to every hit.  I can choose not to take it if I don't want it, but it will make the game worse and it will reduce the enjoyment I get from the community, when some people are using it.

[Sibelius1]

+1 from me

Can't understand this decision at all.

Combat Log

I don't buy the "We don't weant to bamboozle people who are new to the genre" line. Theres an easy way to get around that, and its called toggling. Have the combat log off by default or make it an extra tab in the journal ala KOTOR. If you dont want to be bamboozled don't turn on/view the combat log.

There are only two reasons I can see for doing this

1) Saving money by cutting corners

2) They aren't quite confident enough about their combat system to bare it's innards in a combat log

Having read the threads regarding various dexterity and general combat balance issues on these forums, I'm inclined to plump for number 2 sadly.  

Given the cost cutting/minimising described below however, who knows.

Tooltips

I have seen the excuse that localisations and text strings were locked down before the skills and talents were finalised. That is no excuse to me. It is a clear case of bad scheduling of work tasks and should be fixed. Just saying "Oh we made a mistake and we can't be arsed to fix it" is unacceptable for a top quality outfit like Bioware.

Stats are an important (some would say critical) part of RPGs, and to botch them, then not bother to fix them when they had 8 months during the release delay to do so is ridiculous.

This is obviously a case of cutting corners to save cash and is a worrying development in Bioware's work practices

Consider for a moment, the reaction if Bioware released The Old Republic MMO with vague toolltips and no combat log

There would by an enormous outcry, and it would end up costing them more applying fixes than it would have to include these features in the original game.

Take note fanboys who defend every decision Bioware makes, if they see their fanbase is generally satisfied with this type of thing they will no doubt cut these features from future releases.

Modifié par Sibelius1, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[marcel1980]

i would like to have the option to turn on/off combat log. Game is pretty fast and its unable to keep track of the detailed combat mechanics

[Statue]

dtsazza wrote...

Sceptic83 wrote...
I bet all these -1 never played bg...

BG vet checking in with a -1.

I agree with the comparison (and distinction to) WoW.  The easier it is to do number-crunching, the more people will do it.  And that's part of my reason for being selfish and not wanting anyone to have it - it will drag the community down to a point of insisting on certain power builds and most of the forum posts will be a discussion of what combination of X, Y, Z produces the most DPS etc.

And yes, I know we get those already, but they're not as numerous as they could be.

If you think that there being vague and ambiguously defined systems protects the forums from posts about how stuff works and what are good choices, you might want to check again: there are numerous threads that are simply people trying to figure out what something does or how something works that wouldn't need to exist at all if those questions weren't raised by the game. I don't think it helps the forums any that there are so many confused people having to ask what a skill does or how to find a set bonus. Is that really better in some way for the community - more confused people posting questions that could be avoided entirely with more clarity within the game? I have thus far never made a post in any public forum about how to make an optimal build of any type of character. Just because I had clearer in-game information, I fail to see how I would suddenly transform into someone that would spam your forum with build information. You'd rather a significant proportion of people have a lesser gaming experience in order to protect the forums from threads in which people state "x gives the best DPS" (instead of the current ones which state "wtf does x do?")?

I just want to make informed choices. I'm okay with not having the best possible armour or the best possible mage - but if I'm expected to choose between bits of armour, or choose some spells for my mage, I would like to at least be able to do so in a meaningful way. If I wasn't supposed to at least try to influence my chances or game outcomes by making choices, why bother giving choices? There are plenty of games where you *don't* at all customise your equipment or statistics - they tend to not be RPGs - and that's fine and there are many great games with no gear or skill choices to make. DAO is an RPG and does have those choices though. They are ever-present. From the moment I create a character, every time I find new equipment that could potentially replace what I currently have, each time I level up, each time I engage in combat - the game, like many in the RPG genre, presents players with choices they are expected to make. It's not as rewarding to choose between two lumps of vague than it is to make a meaningful choice. Offer me tea or coffee and I can make a reasoned choice. Offer me brown liquid or brown liquid and I can't, and if it was tea and coffee in those cups I'd be puzzled as to why you'd want to conceal it from me and have me worry about drinking a cup of diarrhea.

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[Oliver Sudden]

Meh, I don't miss 'em. NWN ended up being like playing a spreadsheet, and I like the more lifelike feeling that this game brings. I don't need to see the dice rolls to see how I'm doing or to know the exact damage something can do. Besides, in one of the dual wielding threads, BioWare admitted that they put that feature in because it fitted with their demographic and the same reasoning applies here.

Modifié par Oliver Sudden, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:30 .

[jacobmsn]

Sibelius1 wrote...

1) Saving money by cutting corners

2) They aren't quite confident enough about their combat system to bare it's innards in a combat log

I have been reading a lot of the combat scripts in toolset lately and the combat log is there but for debug purposes so the output format is very code-like. Someplaces even calls functions for displaying stuff over the characters head (e.g. that a backstab occurred) but that code has been commented out. My own guess is that they had a combat log but removed it because it confused the casual players.

I am very interested in a combat log myself and am currectly looking into making an add-on. It seems quite possible...

[Kiddeth]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

so true.

besides how would knowing any of these thing add tothe over all betterment of the game? short answer, it wouldn't.

[Statue]

Oliver Sudden wrote...

Meh, I don't miss 'em. NWN ended up being like playing a spreadsheet, and I like the more lifelike feeling that this game brings. I don't need to see the dice rolls to see how I'm doing or to know the exact damage something can do. Besides, in one of the dual wielding threads, BioWare admitted that they put that feature in because it fitted with their demographic and the same reasoning applies here.

How does the same reasoning apply here as when Bioware included dual wielding to please their demographic? From that, I gather you mean that Bioware researched their customer base and found significant evidence to suggest that the overwhelming majority of their customers didn't like seeing numbers and therefore trimmed them out?

If that's the case, then I wonder how they survived making the faux pas of including specific numerical information in all their previous bestsellers and how the demographic was so forgiving of it. I'd also wonder how that market research produced such wildly opposite results compared to what's revealed by trawling both forums on the issue and my own admittedly small-scale poll measurement (which currently only amounts to just over 100 votes but nevertheless produces statistically significant results due to a massive effect size, in the direction of support for a combat log and specific in-game descriptors).

I know opinions on the issue differ, but I genuinely would be surprised to learn that there was some research somewhere that revealed that Bioware's customers were overwhelmingly opposed to clarity in RPG systems, and would be interested to see it.

 

[Tofu Sofa]

  And a Pony! We want a Pony too!

[Statue]

jacobmsn wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

1) Saving money by cutting corners

2) They aren't quite confident enough about their combat system to bare it's innards in a combat log

I have been reading a lot of the combat scripts in toolset lately and the combat log is there but for debug purposes so the output format is very code-like. Someplaces even calls functions for displaying stuff over the characters head (e.g. that a backstab occurred) but that code has been commented out. My own guess is that they had a combat log but removed it because it confused the casual players.

I am very interested in a combat log myself and am currectly looking into making an add-on. It seems quite possible...

Hope it turns out to be possible. If you make it, I'll grab it

With the caveat that I'm clueless at modding, if there's any help you need that a modding noob could provide, just ask and I'll try.

[Statue]

Kiddeth wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

so true.

besides how would knowing any of these thing add tothe over all betterment of the game? short answer, it wouldn't.

Your short answer is it wouldn't. I have a lengthier answer that says it would, but will link to it instead of posting it here as it already exists on a different thread (and I'm trying to avoid repetition despite finding similar rationales appearing in multiple threads). If you are genuinely interested in a different answer than your own to your question, check http://social.biowar...205210/1#206210 where I cover how I feel it negatively effects gameplay for me.

As for being sick of hundreds of threads whining about it, consider that people are entitled to reasonably express dissatisfaction, that dismissing them as whining doesn't help anyone, and that there are good reasons why there are so many posts on the issue. It's not a random phenomena, an inexplicable forum plague. It's because there are plenty of people who feel they would benefit from a combat log and better clarity for in-game descriptors, just as there are those that feel they wouldn't. Ideally the disparate threads would be consolidated somewhat. There have been search failures I guess, which aren't ideal - some of those search failures may well be from the site being wonky though it does seem to be improving which is encouraging.

[wanderon]

failsafeignition wrote...

Wait...what? Why would anyone disagree with having a feature like this added. I mean...you could always just turn it off and play without it.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "PSSH, I don't need it or want it, so it's a dumb thing to add and anyone who wants it is also dumb" mentality.

I mean, it's not like adding a combat log would take anything away from the game. You don't want it, so you turn it off, and you're happy. Someone else does want it, so they leave it on, and they're happy. Everyone is happy.

Alternatively, it's not put in, you're still happy. But they're not happy. Why are you denying them their HAPPINESS???!?!11?! =P

You see this sort of argument a lot on internet game forums - why should you care if I want the devs to put this feature or that feature in - you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

I think it speaks to a lack of understanding or perhaps just a lack of knowledge of what adding this or that to a game actually involves and to the basic principles of how the business of developing and releasing a game works. (or perhaps to how any real life business works)

Games do not have unlimited budgets where adding a feature simply means deciding to make it so. Features require work and work requires an investment in time, money, and resources to produce that work.

Since there is not an unlimited supply of time, money and resources available that means decisions have to made about where to spend that time, money and resources.

If those resources are budgeted to be spent on feature A (the feature you may be asking for) then they are gone and cannot be spent on feature B, C, D, E or F - which all may be features that I would like to see those resources spent on instead.

Thus it DOES in fact matter which features the devs decide to implement and there IS an impact on me if they spend resources putting in features I am not interested in and finally that it's just as important for those who do not support this feature or that to step up and make their opinions known on the subject.

Put my vote as NO to spending precious resources to bring more of the games math to the surface - I think the system is articulated enough already for good gameplay. 

[Nouv Paris]

MASSIVE -9000 vote from me.



We don't need this crap. If I wanted maths I would take a course in calculus. Plus it RUINS MY IMMERSION. Bioware already spent enough time/money adding the floaty combat numbers, health bars, subtitles, character creator, and other useless fluff. In fact I'm sure they wasted ALOT of development time even adding an HUD. Please Bioware don't give in to the whiners. I don't want my screen filled with thousands of green numbers like the Matrix, and we shouldn't even have the "option." Stop ruining my immersion. You've done it enough already. Thanks.

[Dark83]

I just wanted to point out that even in FPS games like L4D... we have the numbers available.
The weapon spread, projectile number, damage per projectile, fire rates and all that are already available.
Similarly, we have the numbers for Dragon Age already.

The "hide the numbers" people really are missing the point. I think those who want a combat log would be happy with even the raw numerical output the engine puts out.

Personally, I never look at those, but I don't see why it shouldn't be in there. It'll help the number crunchers so they can tell me "When it says chance to paralyze, they mean 0.1%, avoid grabbing that."

[addiction21]

We also want waffles in the game.