248 réponses à ce sujet

[Crazyace2009]

signed

[Godeshus]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...



-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.



It's not like you're being forced to read these threads a la Clockwork Orange. Just move on to the next thread.

[Sibelius1]

Does anyone believe they will release The Old Republic with hidden combat mechanics and no combat log?

Not a chance, and do you know why? Because theorycrafting and precise character building are important to the RPG genre and promote longevity.

That and the fact they'd be a laughing stock and would have to patch it in once people started to hit the /Cancel button.

Modifié par Sibelius1, 19 novembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[addiction21]

Godeshus wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

It's not like you're being forced to read these threads a la Clockwork Orange. Just move on to the next thread.

Well to me when I see someone speaking for the entire community without ever discussing my thoughts or opnions I too get upset.  A better title would of been along the lines of "who wants yadda yadda yadda"

I could care less if a log is implemented or not but right now in this games life I would prefer they put those resources to fixing the problems that are there now instead of implementing some addition that not everyone needs or wants.  Fixing the problems present now makes everyone happy. Spending time adding a combat log is only usefull for those that need to number crunch to enjoy their game.

[Sloth Of Doom]

addiction21 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

It's not like you're being forced to read these threads a la Clockwork Orange. Just move on to the next thread.

Well to me when I see someone speaking for the entire community without ever discussing my thoughts or opnions I too get upset.  A better title would of been along the lines of "who wants yadda yadda yadda"

I could care less if a log is implemented or not but right now in this games life I would prefer they put those resources to fixing the problems that are there now instead of implementing some addition that not everyone needs or wants.  Fixing the problems present now makes everyone happy. Spending time adding a combat log is only usefull for those that need to number crunch to enjoy their game.

This.

[Jaucinet]

"Does anyone believe they will release The Old Republic with hidden combat mechanics and no combat log?



Not a chance, and do you know why? Because theorycrafting and precise character building are important to the RPG genre and promote longevity."



You may have a point about longevity, but you omitted the massive importance of multiplayer in that equation. I'm a huge single player rpg fan, and I'm not missing the numbers. Wouldn't bother me if they were provided either though.

[Godeshus]

addiction21 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

It's not like you're being forced to read these threads a la Clockwork Orange. Just move on to the next thread.

Well to me when I see someone speaking for the entire community without ever discussing my thoughts or opnions I too get upset.  A better title would of been along the lines of "who wants yadda yadda yadda"

I could care less if a log is implemented or not but right now in this games life I would prefer they put those resources to fixing the problems that are there now instead of implementing some addition that not everyone needs or wants.  Fixing the problems present now makes everyone happy. Spending time adding a combat log is only usefull for those that need to number crunch to enjoy their game.

Point taken, and your point of view is definitely valid. But really, it's not like anyone who posts the ambiguous "we..." is ACUTALLY encompassing EVERYONE. Using this point as a basis for argument is simply dealing in semantics. "We" could mean a lot of things. It might mean Everyone On Earth, All Gamers, All gamers who are playing DOA, or all Gamers Who Are Playing DOA And Who Want Detailed Stats

I even seriously doubt that YOU even considered for a second that the OP's of these threads were talking about you personally when they decided to write "we" in their topic. And if you did actually think that, you might consider taking a creative writing class. There is such a thing as being too sensitive.



 

Modifié par Godeshus, 19 novembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Statue]

Nouv Paris wrote...
If I wanted maths I would take a course in calculus...

Plus it RUINS MY IMMERSION....

Please Bioware don't give in to the whiners. I don't want my screen filled with thousands of green numbers like the Matrix, and we shouldn't even have the "option."

It does not require a course in calculus in order to read two numbers and recognize one as being higher than the other. I think the argument that somehow numbers in a description are bad as they demand advanced mathematical schooling is flawed in what it assumes about the average gamer's numeric competence and also flawed in what it appears to assume is taught in higher mathematics courses.

The immersion argument works both ways. I don't find it immersive to decide between spells by choosing one, playtesting it, then reloading before I chose it, nor do I find it fluid or immersive to debuff, strip, then equip pieces of gear one by one while watching my stats to establish what effects they have, nor to alt-tab out of the game and look up a more specific spell description on a wiki or check its values in the toolset mid-game. All of those stop my gaming experience dead while I jump through some hoops to inform what would otherwise be a speedy and smooth decision. I'd be more accepting of a specific in-game tooltip than having to use those workarounds to establish the relative merits of in-game choices of equipment or spells. If I'm exiting the game to look something up that could easily be in the game, or playtesting and reloading, then my immersion level is pretty radically compromised, far more than it would be be from a clear and informative description.

I guess you don't agree with me that it is quite unhelpful to dismiss people with different preferences to yours as whiners.

As for the last point, I too don't want an option to have green numbers cascading down my screen like The Matrix. But since nobody is seriously asking for that, I can only regard that last point as a badly constructed straw man http://www.skepdic.c...ns/lesson9.html

[Godeshus]

I truly don't understand why there is anyone against this. The whole idea behind it is so that we can make informed decisions on the choices we are presented with. Why ANYONE would think that making decisions based on gathered information is beyond me. I'm entirely serious when I say this: If you make your decisions without gathering information first there is something really really wrong with you.

edit: above I wrote  Why ANYONE would think that making decisions based on gathered information is beyond me
what I meant to say was:  Why ANYONE would think that making decisions based on gathered information is a bad idea beyond me

Modifié par Godeshus, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:11 .

[Oliver Sudden]

Statue wrote...

How does the same reasoning apply here as when Bioware included dual wielding to please their demographic? From that, I gather you mean that Bioware researched their customer base and found significant evidence to suggest that the overwhelming majority of their customers didn't like seeing numbers and therefore trimmed them out?
 

In short, yes. Not so much existing customers, but potential future customers. BioWare's focus groups and whatnot determined that removing more hardcore features appealed to the more casual fans, who are a much larger group.

[Statue]

Hmm. Dumbed down for the lose (and risking alienating the existing fanbase for some shiney new customers)? Still conflicts quite radically with what I'm seeing and measuring. Plus the fact remains that an optional combat log would have simultaneously provided for the hardcore while not scaring off the casuals. They'd just have to market it without the scary stuff shown on-screen when pitching it to the casual market.

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:05 .

[Sibelius1]

double post

Modifié par Sibelius1, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Sibelius1]

Jaucinet wrote...

"Does anyone believe they will release The Old Republic with hidden combat mechanics and no combat log?

Not a chance, and do you know why? Because theorycrafting and precise character building are important to the RPG genre and promote longevity."

You may have a point about longevity, but you omitted the massive importance of multiplayer in that equation. I'm a huge single player rpg fan, and I'm not missing the numbers. Wouldn't bother me if they were provided either though.

So only multiplayer RPG fans deserve to know detailed game mechanics?

To quote the description of Nightmare difficulty, it states something like "Only people with a sound knowledge of the game mechanics and playing with optimal builds should attempt this"

Going by that I believe that they expect their players to try to build optimal characters and really know the game inside out. The information provided by the game in it's present form does not encourage that in the slightest, and only through laborius testing (or reading what effectively are spoilers i.e. someone elses research) can we discover the information required to gain this sound knowledge and build these optimal characters.

Also consider the fact that within 1 day of release, one of the devs had created an online "Missing Manual" containing the raw numbers that have been left out of the game. I don't believe Bioware are 100% happy with the lack of accurate information in game and obviously a sizable chunk of the playerbase isn't either

To be fair one of the above posts above is stating that there are more important issues to be addressed first , and I agree with that. I am affected by the 100% CPU issue and had several forced shutdowns due to overheating before I discovered that it is solved by switching affinity to as single CPU core. This and various other issues need to be resolved before any changes like these are made, btut to say that you dont want a combat log included in the future because the formus would turn into a best-build fest is just spiteful.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Johohoho.Ehehehe wrote...

Sceptic83 wrote...

I'm sick of this -1 ones. If you don't like numbers go play easy with consolle or go fps. Rpg games and strategic games do have numbers.

Role-playing ... role-playing ... I can't see anything about numbers.

The 'zomgmath' is between the 'role' and 'playing' obviously.  You need to be insecure to see it

[Dark83]

Actually, one thing I really want which shouldn't be difficult to put in at all is more informative tooltips for at least spells. Like a casting time. That would be awesome.

[leotime0]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

amen to that

[Godeshus]

Decades ago, the World Order for naming things got together and decided how to, well, name things.

When considering games of this genre, 2 options were proposed:

1) A Game where your imagination takes on the roll of a character, that grows with life experience and uses a system of grade 2 level mathematics where randomly generated numbers, be it by dice, dirty napkins with smudged ink, or a computer coded algorithm determins the outcome of every single action taken within said game.

2) Roll playing game.

After years of discussions and heated debate, they are still unclear on which direction they will take, but currently there seems to be a majority leaning towards option 1.

Modifié par Godeshus, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[Beechwell]

Personally I don't care for a log. It'd be ok if I can turn i off and not have it hinder my view. But I would rather see more attention in other areas, like storytelling and some bugs.



I remember reading a lengthy post by Geog Zoeller in the old forum about the issue. I don't know how to find it now, but I think the main point was that a meaningful combat log would need more than just passing attention, and that combat information is generally too comvoluted and complicated to put it in a log in a useful fashion.

And I suppose there is a point to that. Damage and skill effects are not calculated as straight forward as in a PnP game. Position, party size, enemy type and who knows what else can affect an action. A log would at the very least look much more complicated than in BG, and possibly still be missleading.

I think Bioware wants to direct the player's attention more to what is happening on the screen in regards to skill effects and tactics; and not to what exact calculations go on under the hood. And personally I applaud this approach. I haven't played hard or nightmare yet, but I hope success there will be more dependent on tactics and skill combinations than min/maxing your stats and gears. And for that a combat log is uneccesary.

[DJ Evoke]

-1 not all of us

[addiction21]

Godeshus wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

It's not like you're being forced to read these threads a la Clockwork Orange. Just move on to the next thread.

Well to me when I see someone speaking for the entire community without ever discussing my thoughts or opnions I too get upset.  A better title would of been along the lines of "who wants yadda yadda yadda"

I could care less if a log is implemented or not but right now in this games life I would prefer they put those resources to fixing the problems that are there now instead of implementing some addition that not everyone needs or wants.  Fixing the problems present now makes everyone happy. Spending time adding a combat log is only usefull for those that need to number crunch to enjoy their game.

Point taken, and your point of view is definitely valid. But really, it's not like anyone who posts the ambiguous "we..." is ACUTALLY encompassing EVERYONE. Using this point as a basis for argument is simply dealing in semantics. "We" could mean a lot of things. It might mean Everyone On Earth, All Gamers, All gamers who are playing DOA, or all Gamers Who Are Playing DOA And Who Want Detailed Stats

I even seriously doubt that YOU even considered for a second that the OP's of these threads were talking about you personally when they decided to write "we" in their topic. And if you did actually think that, you might consider taking a creative writing class. There is such a thing as being too sensitive.



 

But I like debating semantics because everyones a WINNER!!!  

I do doubt very much that the OP was thinking about me personally when writing this thread but this is the community forums for this game now (since the other one they had has been shut down) and naming a thread "We want" to me is making a attempt to speak for the entire community.  Maybe its a small nit picky thing to bring up to you but that is the funny thing about opnions since to me its enough of a bother to write all this out

Maybe I could use a creative writing class. I wonder if the teacher has ever seen someone so obssesed with waffles as I am.

(I've said my piece and I will let it die about the whole we thing since it is just a opinion debate that can never be resolved)

[Statue]

I haven't played hard or nightmare yet, but I hope success there will be more dependent on tactics and skill combinations than min/maxing your stats and gears. And for that a combat log is uneccesary.

How do you assess how well your characters have performed in combat  - and how effective your tactical choices were - without feedback? I know there's the fleeting numbers above heads and then there's whether you win the fight or not, but that's quite limited so far as RPG combat feedback to evaluate effectiveness goes. Might be fine for people not overly concerned about how well they're doing so long as they're winning (but I'd suggest when they hit a wall they might then wonder what to do about it), but for improving performance a feedback loop is handy.

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[Oliver Sudden]

Statue wrote...

...an optional combat log would have simultaneously provided for the hardcore while not scaring off the casuals. They'd just have to market it without the scary stuff shown on-screen when pitching it to the casual market.

Hey, it wasn't my decision!

BioWare (or EA) probably thought what they did was the best way to make money. When Bethesda released Fallout 3, they said the same sort of thing (fun for the masses trumps everything else). I don't agree with that, but it looks to be the way games are headed. At the rate we're going, combat will just have an auto-resolve button so we can watch an awesome video of the fight, with no player input needed!

[Godeshus]

lol. I work graveyard shift, so am kinda coming to the point where reading is getting tough. I just gotta say, that is a LOT of boxes and they are quite confusing. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree on opinions. No one wins, but the process is hella fun and engaging.

[Twotricks]

Agreed!