248 réponses à ce sujet

[Schyzm]

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

[Beechwell]

How do you assess how well your characters have performed in combat  - and how effective your tactical choices were - without feedback?

I look at health bars? Time it takes to tackle an enemy? Numbers of potions I used?
There is a lot of feedback on screen already. Maybe some people overly obsessed with numbers just don't see it?


To be honest, I don't really know what vital information a combat log would provide that we don't already get? Unless you want to perform a lengthy analysis of damage dealt and received.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

[Pseudo310]

I would just like to have a little more information about whether the different warrior stances I'm using are helping or hurting me. Since all of them seem to have drawbacks AND benefits they seem situational but it is not apparent to me which situations they are best for since I can't tell what the heck is happening.

[Opcode]

What I find funny is that back in the day when I was primarily a pen and paper gamer, one of the big draws of CRPG's was that the computer could now handle all the numbers for you, leaving the player free to concentrate on the story.



And yet as time has gone on, people are still clinging to the numbers.



I could care less about the numbers. If there's a log, I'll ignore it just like I do in every other RPG I play.



As such, since I'd rather see them adding something more interesting to the game, I'll vote no.

[Schyzm]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

you must never played rpgs in your life.  having numbers and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.  seriously this is the most bizarre argument in the history of people who actually consider themselves rpg players.  I swear it must be some mass influx of second-lifers.  

[dtsazza]

I'd say it's the converse, if anything. RPGs are first and foremost about playing a role, about telling a story. The numbers are to some extent or other necessary in order to resolve combat, but that combat should be part of the story rather than the be-all and end-all that you're min-maxing your character towards.



In that respect, you don't need a combat log in a "proper" RPG. As Beechwell says, there's enough feedback to know whether your tactics are working without being able to feed it through a DPS cruncher after the fact. The very act of doing that, or considering doing that, weakens the story.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

you must never played rpgs in your life.  having numbers and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.  seriously this is the most bizarre argument in the history of people who actually consider themselves rpg players.  I swear it must be some mass influx of second-lifers.  

What are you, 15?

DA has enough numbers for you to role-play your character.  You get to see your damage and the damage being done to you.

D&D (the original rpg) was developed from wargames specifically to focus on the characters and story instead of crunching numbers.   Slowly kids like you have lost that concept and feel like you should be plaing wargames again, which is fine...go play a war game and leave RPGs to the RPG fans.  

[Statue]

Roleplaying includes making informed choices for your characters. Informed choices depend upon adequate information from the gameworld. Numbers are valued for their precision and lack of ambiguity and for quantifying things that it's handy to quantify, and for the fact that they can be used to contribute to the generation of alternative outcomes (the majority of RPGs have random number generators - or dice rolls in pencil and paper forms - interacting with character stats to determine outcomes of choices and actions). It's therefore not at all odd for numbers to be in an RPG; they are what the system uses to settle the outcome of events based upon different factors, and provide players with a way of understanding their character's strengths and weaknesses in relation to the gameworld and its mechanics. They are in the majority of pencil and paper RPGs, all Bioware RPGs, including DAO, and are used in the same way in DAO as numerous other RPGs to calculate outcomes based upon character proficiencies, equipment, and actions.

Lots of stuff can be roleplayed without numbers. Dialogue choices (at least those not dependent upon skills like intimidate), whether you want to be an elf or a human, good or evil, some of the character's history and motivation (though to best prolong the experience, that motivation tends to include a healthy urge to survive - for which purpose, understanding the relative merits of alternative choices of gear and skills is handy).

But as soon as a character and an NPC get down to the business of killing each other, there needs to be some way of deciding outcomes, and numbers that represent and can quantify their relative strengths and weaknesses, in combination with random numbers for a bit of variation and chance, are quite handy for that purpose, especially in the absence of other forms of deciding outcomes.

They can be done away with entirely if replaced by something else (the player's ability to control their avatar in combat versus the computer's AI control of the enemy, for example - as is done in many traditional beat-em-up games; or a mixture of the two as occurs in lots of ARPGs), but there needs to be some arbiter of outcomes.

Modifié par Statue, 19 novembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[Grovermancer]

I've not seen one legitimate reason for why, in a single-player only game, it would hurt to allow the option, for those who want it, to have access to a combat log. 

How would that hurt those of you who don't want it?  DON'T ACCESS THE DAMN THING!

What a selfish, selfish argument.

[Cquattro2009]

Seifz wrote...

-1 from me. I'm glad that I don't feel compelled to look over all of the numbers and min/max the hell out of my characters. It's refreshing to just see "increases damage, lowers attack" and decide "that sounds like something my warrior would want" or "nah, my warrior's not that kinda guy." Numbers and theorycrafting are what killed the fun in WoW.

Except you don't have to crunch numbers or theorycraft if you don't want to.  For those of us who do care though, "Increases Damage" is never going to replace "Increases Damage by 10" 

I've never seen an RPG like this that didn't give you at least SOME idea of how potent an item is. 

[Beechwell]

We all agree that numbers are necessary to simulate the world the characters act in. They are not necessary to "role play" your character.

In particular, knowing all the numbers isn't necessary for role play at all. I may even be considered detrimental to it, since your characer wouldn't know these exact values either.

[addiction21]

Grovermancer wrote...



I've not seen one legitimate reason for why, in a single-player only game, it would hurt to allow the option, for those who want it, to have access to a combat log. 

How would that hurt those of you who don't want it?  DON'T ACCESS THE DAMN THING!

What a selfish, selfish argument.

I can play this game.
Show me how it hurts you to not have it? There has allready been plenty of number crunching going on and all the information is there for you to find.  It is a function that is not needed to enjoy or complete the game so how is it hurting you not having it?
It's also rather selfish to demand that because you want something it must be added and to redirect resources from creating new content, fixing bugs, and problems to add something you want.  Very selfish if you ask me to ask them to devout time to adding something for a few instead of fixing/adding things for the whole.

Just because I love waffles does not mean that everyone meals should include waffles with the option to not eat them.

[Grovermancer]

Yeah, if I fully knew what things did, how they all worked, all the mechanics, I wouldn't need a combat log.

Even now, I'd only use it once in a while to try and figure out if I had stuff set up right...  Then go back to 'role playing' with my character and forget all about the log.  I'd probably literally only check it upon major equipment changes.  (how often does that happen through even the entire game?  not too often)

People seem to think that all cause one wants occasional access to a combat log means one would sit there with a calculator the whole time and ignore all else.  (which if someone does do that, it's their loss -- why should anyone else care? --it's not a multiplayer game afterall; you'll never play with/against any of these people)

[Schyzm]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

you must never played rpgs in your life.  having numbers and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.  seriously this is the most bizarre argument in the history of people who actually consider themselves rpg players.  I swear it must be some mass influx of second-lifers.  

What are you, 15?

DA has enough numbers for you to role-play your character.  You get to see your damage and the damage being done to you.

D&D (the original rpg) was developed from wargames specifically to focus on the characters and story instead of crunching numbers.   Slowly kids like you have lost that concept and feel like you should be plaing wargames again, which is fine...go play a war game and leave RPGs to the RPG fans.  

or you could go back to playing second-life and not have to see another evil number again.

[Grovermancer]

addiction21 wrote...

I can play this game.
Show me how it hurts you to not have it? There has allready been plenty of number crunching going on and all the information is there for you to find.  It is a function that is not needed to enjoy or complete the game so how is it hurting you not having it?
It's also rather selfish to demand that because you want something it must be added and to redirect resources from creating new content, fixing bugs, and problems to add something you want.  Very selfish if you ask me to ask them to devout time to adding something for a few instead of fixing/adding things for the whole.

Just because I love waffles does not mean that everyone meals should include waffles with the option to not eat them.

It hurts me not to have it because I'm not a heroic genious gamer like you and don't know how everything works, and that might help inform me.

It wouldn't be "added." --because it's already there. 
Just allow it to be seen. 
Like in all these other BW RPGs.
For those who want it. 

Don't like it, don't use it.

Your argument is what -- it'll take "too many resources to implement?" 

Yeah, sure it will.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 19 novembre 2009 - 07:18 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

you must never played rpgs in your life.  having numbers and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.  seriously this is the most bizarre argument in the history of people who actually consider themselves rpg players.  I swear it must be some mass influx of second-lifers.  

What are you, 15?

DA has enough numbers for you to role-play your character.  You get to see your damage and the damage being done to you.

D&D (the original rpg) was developed from wargames specifically to focus on the characters and story instead of crunching numbers.   Slowly kids like you have lost that concept and feel like you should be plaing wargames again, which is fine...go play a war game and leave RPGs to the RPG fans.  

or you could go back to playing second-life and not have to see another evil number again.

And you could stay under your bridge like a good troll and never bother the internet again.

[Schyzm]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

whoever doesn't want numbers in their rpg should reinstall their second life account.

Whoever thinks RPGs are about numbers should figure out what "RPG" stands for.  Hint, it has nothing to do with numbers

you must never played rpgs in your life.  having numbers and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.  seriously this is the most bizarre argument in the history of people who actually consider themselves rpg players.  I swear it must be some mass influx of second-lifers.  

What are you, 15?

DA has enough numbers for you to role-play your character.  You get to see your damage and the damage being done to you.

D&D (the original rpg) was developed from wargames specifically to focus on the characters and story instead of crunching numbers.   Slowly kids like you have lost that concept and feel like you should be plaing wargames again, which is fine...go play a war game and leave RPGs to the RPG fans.  

or you could go back to playing second-life and not have to see another evil number again.

And you could stay under your bridge like a good troll and never bother the internet again.

sorry if the reality of rpg's offends you.  numbers are the reality of the rpg world.  to not have them borders on absurd, for random second-lifers to come into an rpg thread and actually campaign against them is just goofball.

[Sceptic83]

DA has enough numbers for you to role-play your character. You get to see your damage and the damage being done to you.

Well in a childish-simple game in which you can only attack and move, yes it is sufficient. In a tactical game this isn't sufficient. This is not an adventure game, this is not monkey island. How much that spell last? Uhm...it lasts, take it easy. Sorry I can't accept that.

[seb__]

+1

strategy needs numbers.

calculator playing is nice

[Statue]

addiction21 wrote...
Show me how it hurts you to not have it?

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/205210/1#206210

You can probably almost feel my pain reading it. Won't compare to the pain in my fingers from typing it.

[bjdbwea]

A combat log should be a matter of course, as well as proper documentation (=numbers).

[Sceptic83]

At least even a pdf manual with game mechanics will be average... 

[Endurium]

I'd be happy with consistent stat descriptions. We get a somewhat detailed breakdown in the character screen when hovering over stats, but terse descriptions during character generation.



Also getting numeric values in spells, talents and skills would be nice. Of course that means Bioware has to get the numbers right; as it is now they can plug anything into the system (or make any mistake) and nobody's the wiser.

[addiction21]

Statue wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Show me how it hurts you to not have it?

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/205210/1#206210

You can probably almost feel my pain reading it. Won't compare to the pain in my fingers from typing it.

Oh dear lord my eyes are bleeding!!!   No but thank you a actualy thought out post. Even tho your fingers are in pain and my eyes are bleeding it gave me some better insights into whats running around you all's mind. 
I in my opnion think that better more detailed tooltips would go a lot further then the dedicated combat log.  Now go wrap your fingers, soak them, and no more wall of texts for 3 days.

Grovermancer wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

snip

It hurts me not to have it because I'm not a heroic genious gamer like you and don't know how everything works, and that might help inform me.

It wouldn't be "added." --because it's already there. 
Just allow it to be seen. 
Like in all these other BW RPGs.
For those who want it. 

Don't like it, don't use it.

Your argument is what -- it'll take "too many resources to implement?" 

Yeah, sure it will.

Nice adhomenims there. I never said anything about my great ability to play games. Fact is I am rather mediocre and have not even tried nightmare yet.
Yes it would have to be added. Why you might ask? Well because its not there. All those numbers are running under the hood so to speak.Ever driven a car? All those gauges and meters in the dashboard have to be added and things need to go into them. How to implement them, what colors will it be, what shapes, the information that will be displayed, how to run the wiring from the equipment that monitor all such things.
Just like what would have to be done with adding a combat log. What type of information will be displayed, how will it be displayed, where will it be displayed, what setting will go with it, what options, how interactive will it be, who is going to do it, who is writing the code, testing it to make sure it is displaying the correct information.
You dont just go "LET THERE BE COMBAT LOGS!!!"  AND BAM THERE IT IS, let us all rejoice in its might and glory.
Also my arguement is not that it should be done but that there are more importent things for time and effort to be spent on at this time that would benefit everyone.  
Dont like it? Dont respond.