248 réponses à ce sujet

[Godeshus]

If you think that's big, what else do you think is big, I wonder?

[Kaerwek]

/signed

[Kaerwek]

Bah double post...

Modifié par Kaerwek, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[Clegan]

The game comes with a graphical combat log. Its really simple.

Your damage is too low it shows you dead and asks you do you want to reload.

Your damage is good, it shows you corpses and maybe awards you loot.

[Wakkiki]

First of all we all agree that this is a single player game and we have the right to play the game in any way we want since our choices DOESN'T affect any other player's gameplay. Since most people here want to have the OPTION to use the combat log (alongside with me) and more detailed tooltips its their right to ask for it. If i want to use the combat log i sould use it or if i want to use sound and music or have the subtitles on i use it if i like. To whoever that doesn't to have the OPTION on these i say that they could be

1.Mean or stupid (sometimes both). If u don't want to use an option then don't but don't make me lack the oportunity to do so.

2.Weak. If u think u can't hold yourself to not to use some options while u know that it'll make your game worse then what if u see a gorgeus woman in the street and u wanna grab her ass?? u go for it no matter what?

3. EMO (j/k). If u think numbers will ruin the immersion on the game then DONT USE IT. To me the immersion is the storyline not the numbers!!



To sum up we all have to have the choice since we don't ruin each others gameplay!!!

[Sceptic83]

 I opened this topic and I close it, cause these two features will never be developed, as Georg Zoeller wrote in another topic (it would have been nice to answer in this topic but that's it)...

I'm not a fan of polls. Game development
decisions are rarely 'should we add feature x'. They're almost always
'do we add feature X or feature Y'

Polls, just like petitions or
boycotts (http://i.imgur.com/17vKk.png) usually don't help, because if
you ask people 'do you want a cookie', most of them will say yes, even
if they don't really feel they need a cookie.

So, a better
question would be 'Combat Log' or 'Weapon and Armor Crafting*'? or
'Combat Log' but also an increase in minimum machine spec?

Sounds
odd? It isn't - ombat logging is quite performance expensive - pushing
a high volume of strings through the scripting VM into the engine and
then into the UI is a major performance concern - one of the reasons
all the log statements are #ifdef'd out so they don't generate
instructinos on the VM.

Does that mean we don't care for the
community? No, we're always listening and interested in feedback - but
polls, petitions or high volume posting on our forums has/have no more
impact that a single well thought out post, a well written review or or
a mod that turns out to be very popular, indicating interest for a
feature.

And just in general, I'm really absolutely immune to
the 'if you don't do what I want your company is bad because it doesn't
listen to me about how the game should be made and what features it
should have' school of thought.

Believe me - we've discussed
features like the combat log before cutting it. We understoodnd that
some people would feel it is absolutely vital - and we made a concious
choice, after weighting benefits and drawbacks, to say 'not happening -
people who feel it is absolutely vital will have to look elsewhere or
resort to modding'. That has nothing to do with not listening to the
customer and everything to do with defining the target audience for the
game.

I'm not taking joy or pleasure in telling people their
favourite feature was cut, deemed legacy or otherwise rejected - but I
also feel it is important to be honest and not give people BS about how
we're 'thinking about it' and 'maybe gonna add it in the future'.

I
feel it makes more sense to give you an indiciation when you're
fighting a lost cause or what your options are instead of letting you
waste time running against windmills that you won't fell, regardless
how often you try.

Granted, it is foolish for me to say 'will
never happen', because I know quite well that we can sneak all kinds of
things into our game (like cloaks) that we categorically rejected
before - but at this point it serves to make a point - chances of
getting a combat log of the type like in Baldur's Gate anytime soon are
nil. Way too many factors (string performance, UI design
considerations, cost vs. benefit analysis, game accessibility) are
aligned against it. Some kind of debug output to file or screen is much
more likely.


I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

* Used for example purposes only, no upcoming feature implied.

There is a project by Zoeller himself called "The Missing Manual" dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/

[blaalindorm]

I don't understand why there isn't a console log available. Things like "Morrigan disapproves" only stay on screen for a few seconds, and unless I've missed something, that's the only chance you get to see.

[Seraphael]

Given the spells widely vary in power and usefulness, I'd certainly would've appreciated in game numeric details.

[La-Montagne]

I would love to see a combat log, but I can understand why some people don't want one. I don't post often (this is a first and rare de-lurk) but I saw a few comments that I wanted to respond to.

I don't fully understand the term "WoW min/maxing". If this means that you use it to understand how best to defeat an enemy  by using textual output then I don't really have a problem with that. Until graphical representation becomes so unbelievably realistic that I might be able to understand if something resisted my spell or parried my attack, then I find a log greatly enhances my gameplay experience. I don't like that I can't visualise the combat and respond to events because I don't know they're happening.

I don't think a log should be an exercise in breaking down the game to pure maths; for me it's about describing the events and providing feedback that cannot otherwise be observed. "A simple x parried char's attack", for example, would be entirely sufficient. I see the text output as the result of this RPG's pen-and-paper heritage, ignore it if it's not your thing but embrace it if it is.

I would be really happy to see this in-game; I read somewhere that they say they won't ever put it in, if it could be modded I would definitely support the effort.

Modifié par La-Montagne, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:51 .

[pappap]

I registered only to reply to this post. I am no hardcore rpg player. I have never played Wow and just a little bit BG.
I want better descriptions! I have no way of knowing which spell, talent or equipment to use with to current level of info.
A combat log would also be a good tool to have.

I am a casual player and I want these features so I can make informed decisions.

Have the devs commented on this?

Modifié par pappap, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Godeshus]

La-Montagne wrote...

I would love to see a combat log, but I can understand why some people don't want one. I don't post often (this is a first and rare de-lurk) but I saw a few comments that I wanted to respond to.

I don't fully understand the term "WoW min/maxing". If this means that you use it to understand how best to defeat an enemy  by using textual output then I don't really have a problem with that. Until graphical representation becomes so unbelievably realistic that I might be able to understand if something resisted my spell or parried my attack, then I find a log greatly enhances my gameplay experience. I don't like that I can't visualise the combat and respond to events because I don't know they're happening.

I don't think a log should be an exercise in breaking down the game to pure maths; for me it's about describing the events and providing feedback that cannot otherwise be observed. "A simple x parried char's attack", for example, would be entirely sufficient. I see the text output as the result of this RPG's pen-and-paper heritage, ignore it if it's not your thing but embrace it if it is.

I would be really happy to see this in-game; I read somewhere that they say they won't ever put it in, if it could be modded I would definitely support the effort.

Thank you for a refreshingly polite post. While I never played it, When people are talking about WoW min/maxing, I believe they are referring to the game World of Warcraft, and  min/maxing is where you strip your character down to his bare state, ie. no armor, no buffs (such as increased dexterity, etc.), then taking that character and attacking an enemy type. Once you've done this, you re-equip your character with all the goodies, or just one at a time, then attack the same enemy type. The idea is to see the difference of attack, difference, etc. It's just a way to break down the game to see what everything does. 

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. Like I said, I never played WoW.

This inevitably led to the loss of wonder and excitement for the game in general, because everyone was more concerned over the numbers, rather than just playing the game. The major argument is that this could happen to DO:A, and people really love this game, so they don't want to see that happen.  In my opinion, I find this argument slightly flawed.

While I entirely understand the concern, WoW has been out for a long time, and people have played it to death. They desperately want to find new ways to experience and enjoy the game, like they did the first time round, but it is something they can never really achieve. I'm not making a joke when I say this; It is sort of akin to crack. Laugh all you want, but video games (especially good ones) are addictive. You'll never get the same "High" that you got the first time, but you're allways striving for it.  

Thing is, the magic of a game is in the originality. Unless you get a memory wipe, the game will never be original the 2nd time through, even without min/maxing. People who argue the above point of view are simply aren't taking this into consideration, and they are eager to Blame (understandably, it's human nature) people, phenomena (such as min/maxing), dev companies, and many other outside sources for their lack of fulfillment. 

Modifié par Godeshus, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Godeshus]

Regardless, Sceptic83 has thankfully found our answer, so the issue should be closed (over the combat log, anyway). As for detailed in game information, that is still fair game. I still want to be able to make informed choices, like pappap mentioned.

[Sibelius1]

pappap wrote...

I registered only to reply to this post. I am no hardcore rpg player. I have never played Wow and just a little bit BG.
I want better descriptions! I have no way of knowing which spell, talent or equipment to use with to current level of info.
A combat log would also be a good tool to have.

I am a casual player and I want these features so I can make informed decisions.

Have the devs commented on this?

They have, and the ultra rubbish excuse they gave is that they locked down the tooltip descriptions before finalising the talents and spell numbers.

This was said in the same post by Georg lecturing players to about the mammoth task that is creating a game.

It might not be his fault that the text strings and language translations were locked down first, but I think the fact that such a basic task scheduling error was made should at least make a him reconsider before lecturing players on project management.

Oh this and the fact that it will now cost too much to fix, hence the online "Missing Manual". Maybe it should be renamed the "Missing Tooltips"

[Godeshus]

Sibelius1 wrote...

pappap wrote...

I registered only to reply to this post. I am no hardcore rpg player. I have never played Wow and just a little bit BG.
I want better descriptions! I have no way of knowing which spell, talent or equipment to use with to current level of info.
A combat log would also be a good tool to have.

I am a casual player and I want these features so I can make informed decisions.

Have the devs commented on this?

They have, and the ultra rubbish excuse they gave is that they locked down the tooltip descriptions before finalising the talents and spell numbers.

This was said in the same post by Georg lecturing players to about the mammoth task that is creating a game.

It might not be his fault that the text strings and language translations were locked down first, but I think the fact that such a basic task scheduling error was made should at least make a him reconsider before lecturing players on project management.

Oh this and the fact that it will now cost too much to fix, hence the online "Missing Manual". Maybe it should be renamed the "Missing Tooltips"

Very interesting, Sibelius1. I must have missed that when I read through what george had to say.

Perhaps this will be the new wave of games in the future. Release a broken game, wow the audience with a captivating story, beautiful graphics, and a sweet musical score, then allow this same audience to fix your game for free. 

George basically said this when he wrote:

Does that mean we don't care for the
community? No, we're always listening and interested in feedback - but
polls, petitions or high volume posting on our forums has/have no more
impact that a single well thought out post, a well written review or or
a mod that turns out to be very popular, indicating interest for a
feature.

Of course they care for a community that will work for free. Who wouldn't?

Modifié par Godeshus, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[Sibelius1]

Godeshus wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

pappap wrote...

I registered only to reply to this post. I am no hardcore rpg player. I have never played Wow and just a little bit BG.
I want better descriptions! I have no way of knowing which spell, talent or equipment to use with to current level of info.
A combat log would also be a good tool to have.

I am a casual player and I want these features so I can make informed decisions.

Have the devs commented on this?

They have, and the ultra rubbish excuse they gave is that they locked down the tooltip descriptions before finalising the talents and spell numbers.

This was said in the same post by Georg lecturing players to about the mammoth task that is creating a game.

It might not be his fault that the text strings and language translations were locked down first, but I think the fact that such a basic task scheduling error was made should at least make a him reconsider before lecturing players on project management.

Oh this and the fact that it will now cost too much to fix, hence the online "Missing Manual". Maybe it should be renamed the "Missing Tooltips"

Very interesting, Sibelius1. I must have missed that when I read through what george had to say.

Perhaps this will be the new wave of games in the future. Release a broken game, wow the audience with a captivating story, beautiful graphics, and a sweet musical score, then allow this same audience to fix your game for free. 

George basically said this when he wrote:

Does that mean we don't care for the
community? No, we're always listening and interested in feedback - but
polls, petitions or high volume posting on our forums has/have no more
impact that a single well thought out post, a well written review or or
a mod that turns out to be very popular, indicating interest for a
feature.

Of course they care for a community that will work for free. Who wouldn't?

Here is the quote:

Georg Zoellar worte:

There is a HUGE difference between having numbers for abilities and having a combat log though. We had a combat log in prototypes and it not working, so it got cut. Nobody at BioWare missed it, in fact it helped us declutter the interface significantly. Reviewers don't seem to miss it either.

Sorry, we consider it a legacy element that is not essential to the experience and removing it really helped us to modernize the UI and make the game more accessible. There is no chance for a combat log to ever make it into the game.

In regards to 'the missing manual' - I would have loved to ship talent and spell descriptions with detailed
numbers, but due to the localization schedule, that was not possible. It would either have been detailed, but completely wrong numbers (9
month or so of continued balancing) or the current solution. We chose
the current one. Those are the realities of large scale game development  - not all things work out like you want them to and sometimes you have to make hard choices.

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

Page 3 of this thread:

http://social.biowar.../index/245995/3

Edit: Someone should remind Georg what he wrote about Nightmare Difficulty in his own "Missing Manual" because it is a complete contradiction of  the last paragraph of his post

Quote:

A word about Nightmare difficulty

Nightmare difficulty is designed to provide a challenge to players not content with the challenges that the hard difficulty setting is offering. This mode is punishingly hard and requires the player to understand all aspects of the game in order to overcome their enemies. A well planned character and optimized playthrough path are required to succeed in this mode.

Players should NOT try to play on Nightmare the first time they play the game, it is guaranteed to be not fun that way.

Modifié par Sibelius1, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[Godeshus]

In response to Sibelius1's quote on on Geore's note ( I didn't want to quote cuz it would just be a waste of space). I actually know from first hand experience that what George wrote on "the missing manual" is entirely false. My first playthrough, which lasted up until level 10, became impossible to continue playing. I almost returned the game, before looking for answers on these forums. The game became impossible because I became so incredibly outclassed that I would get rolled by the simplest battels.

The reason I was so outclassed? Poor leveling choices based on uninformed decisions. It was an incredibly frustating weekend, and George should have paid attention to the sheer number of threads on game difficulty before posting such a blatant lie.

While I genuinely adore the game now (thanks to the kind COMMUNITY here on the forums and their willingness to help those like me), The lack of attention to such a vital part of any stats and numbers based game will make me think twice before putting down hard-earned money on any Bioware release in the future.

Direct message to Bioware: I am very disappointed in you guys. Up until now, you've been my favourite company in regards to RPG style games. There are other companies out there that I used to love, and who now wouldn't be able to pay me to play their games. While you are not at this same level in my eyes, I do feel betrayed and lied to based on such poor excuses made in response to the concerns of your fans, many of which, like myself,  have supported you from day 1.

Modifié par Godeshus, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:14 .

[arkainjel]

Seifz wrote...

FramnkRulez wrote...

Seifz wrote...

-1 from me. I'm glad that I don't feel compelled to look over all of the numbers and min/max the hell out of my characters. It's refreshing to just see "increases damage, lowers attack" and decide "that sounds like something my warrior would want" or "nah, my warrior's not that kinda guy." Numbers and theorycrafting are what killed the fun in WoW.

This makes no sense... just because they don't expose the numbers doesn't mean they aren't there.  You still should min/max your characters to get the most out of the game, what would be different if they just exposed them via a combat log?  We're not talking about any gameplay changes here, just exposing something they are already tracking.  Just don't open up the combat log and remain blissfully ignorant and the game is no different for you.

It makes perfect sense, to me!  I've been playing WoW for more than four years now and I've seen the game turn into nothing more than a math problem.  Sure, I could ignore the numbers in WoW, but then I'd suck.  If the numbers are there, of course I'm going to look at them and then twink the hell out of my characters!  That's what I always do, and it's getting rather old.  DA:O is different, and I like it.  I don't have to worry about the numbers so much, except when upgrading gear (as an aside, there are too many secondary stats on gear!).  I can actually build a character with talents and abilities that make sense!

If you make the talent descriptions more detailed and introduce a real combat log, then of course I'll have to look at it and maximize my character's potential.  Otherwise, I'd feel like an idiot every time I had trouble getting through a difficult encounter.  Bah!

EDIT:  Everyone likes floating damage numbers!  It's fun to see a big crit!  Plus, it's the only way to know when you're actually hitting your target since the animations are kind of weird and there's no combat log.  

I agree and disagree... 

(+)  I liked seeing numbers so I know if I should be adding more dex or str at a certain point in the game instead of guessing... for example, the first big boss I obviously missed him more than a normal gruntspawn - how much more 'to hit' did I need?
(-)  When playing D2: LOD I would calculate exactly how much str/dex I needed once my char reached level 80 or so, depending on the equipment I would eventually wear, and the other items that would boost my stats.  With the way DA:O plays, I can just PLAY which is nice because I don't have as much time to play games like I did in college.

[BrannonBrighthammer]

I would have sworn up and down that I had somehow accidentally turned off the combat log at first, and that I was just mistaken about the game never having one. Surely that wasn't the case! But wait, what's this, there really is -no- combat log?



Why anyone buys this idea that being ignorant of the stats, rules and effects is somehow better or more modern is beyond me. There's a difference between requiring that you use a log because the complexity of the game demands it, and having one there to use if you need it. Since people keep throwing WoW around in a bizarrely misguided attempt to say it's a game of numbers, I have to ask if they've ever really evaluated that statement. If WoW was this hard core, number crunching sort of game, it wouldn't be as ridiculously popular as it is. It's a perfect example, in fact, of why Dragon Age should have a combat log, since those who want it can use it, those who don't, don't have to. I've known plenty of people in WoW who don't even have their log turned on, for example, while others run six mods to track everything. Is one way better than the other? Or does it just show a flexible design decision that gives players the choice? A much better example of a hard core min/max scenario would be a game like EVE Online, which absolutely requires that you be knee-deep in the maths to get anywhere substantial, which some folks like, too.



DA is a real time tactical combat RPG that involves multiple classes, equipment sets, buffs, debuffs, defensive and offensive spells. Combat is spread all over the screen with little numbers zipping by and disappearing, and all I want to see is a log that says 'Hurlock is hit by Morrigan's Lightning for x' or 'Alistair is healed by Wynn's Group Heal for y'. The game already shows me that, of course, but if it's in the middle of five other combat effects going off while there's a blizzard and I'm being smashed around by an ogre, it's a little hard to keep track of. Is having to pause the game and read numbers every second some sort of improvement? I don't understand how this information just can't be made available, and the dev remarks about it are mystifying at best. What it sounds like, to me, is that they know they eliminated a key feature that has been present in many games for many years, and they're trying to pass it off as next gen or something.



If I didn't love your game, Bioware, I wouldn't care, but I absolutely adore about 98% of it, and I'd really like to see a combat log so that I don't have to play in the dark.

[JWeb]

Combat Log ? Yes please !

[F-C]

people are still posting about this?



this has been answered by Georg - its not going to happen.



they might add a recorded log to a text file or something similar for people who want to make mods, but an ingame combat log is not going to happen.

[ladydesire]

blaalindorm wrote...

I don't understand why there isn't a console log available. Things like "Morrigan disapproves" only stay on screen for a few seconds, and unless I've missed something, that's the only chance you get to see.

From what Georg said fairly recently, Bioware did prototype a combat log for the new engine, but it would have put the system specs too high for the PC version of the game, so it was removed. Call it BS if you wish, but that information came from one of the developers. Also, there is an approval bar under the portrait in the character sheet for your party members.

[Sakiradesu]

A lot of the people posting in this one are fresh faces, so it's not just an isolated desire.



Zoeller as well as others believe that enough information is shown for a combat log to be obsolete in this age of modern gaming. Those posting in the previous topic as well as this topic have all come to their separate, uninfluenced conclusions that this is not the case.



And I agree with Godeshus, who mentions that he was outclassed because of making poor decisions as to his skills and spells. I probably would have suffered a similar fate, but I dislike having to go back and redo skills and spells because what I chose are not as useful as others. I went online and searched boards for effective spells and whatnot. This helped me greatly. This also made me run into a lot of spoilers, ruining portions of the game for me.



As the character thread allows for spoilers, you kind of have to deal with it. Unfortunately, many, who are not as experienced in which skills and spells are worthwhile, become stuck in portions of the game and are forced to come and see what they're doing wrong.

[ComputerEd]

Well I vote no, I do not want to know the mechanics and could care less. There is a novel approach so many have missed, play the game and LEARN! Do not get caught up in rushing through, take your time and learn the game as you play. I hate minmaxing and would rather enjoy the game world without knowing the mess of the mechanics.

[DecalGuy]

+1



Not anyway near "Right away" but it would be nice in the future. add a way to enable/disable it of course.

[Darpaek]

Good for you. Minimize the log then.



HEAR HEAR! Either give me a log, or give me better animations that let me know when I hit harder. LOL