248 réponses à ce sujet

[NobillyT]

I really would like to see a combat log, but I've pretty much come to grips that it just isn't going to happen ever, aside from the possibility of a mod (which I have no idea if it is feasible to mod in).



I really wouldn't mind not having the combat log as much if we had more accurate skill/talent/item descriptions...though I suppose Bioware has also stated that isn't going to happen somewhere too.



However futile, I add +1 to this petition. Or maybe just +1/2 for detailed descriptions (which I think are more important).

[Sakiradesu]

ComputerEd wrote...

Well I vote no, I do not want to know the mechanics and could care less. There is a novel approach so many have missed, play the game and LEARN! Do not get caught up in rushing through, take your time and learn the game as you play. I hate minmaxing and would rather enjoy the game world without knowing the mess of the mechanics.

It sounds like you're just biased against min/maxing. People want to learn. They want to know how things work and how effectively they work. Those who want to stop and read a combat log to analyze their battles are hardly "caught up in rushing through."

This is a method for them to do as you say and play the game and learn. You may not like their way of going about it, but you both have the same goal, I think.

[Georg Zoeller]

I explained this already in a different thread - these are thee different issues.

a) combat log - ain't gonna happen.

A debug for scripters log might happen as we support mod builders, but such a thing would just allow you to use log statements from scripts - most likely to an external source like a file - it would not be he 'combat log' most people have been asking for.

c) detailed descriptions - not as impossible as (a), but certainly out of the cost scope of anything smaller than a full fledged expansion pack. We certainly would like it, but then again, we like horses and flying too, so don't get too optimistic, there is some realities that tend to interfere with even things we like very much.

The most likely outcome is probably

d) Someone creates a new talk table with the descriptions they would like using the toolset.

I've elaborated on this extensively in two other threads already - so I'm not gonna repeat the details anymore and my opinion on petitions is well known - they only make sense if you're actually trying to prioritize between two popular features, just asking people 'who else wants free pie' generally yields 'yes'.

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 21 novembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[Skemte]

... Wait.......................... Why is detailed descriptions almost a impossibility? It takes one guy to sit down to reword the descriptions..

Modifié par Skemte, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[addiction21]

Skemte wrote...

... Wait.......................... Why is detailed descriptions almost a impossibility? It takes one guy to sit down to reword the descriptions..

And will this one guy be doing it for every language the game was released in? Including getting the context/syntext and culturaly relavent things correct?

[Seifz]

Skemte wrote...

... Wait.......................... Why is detailed descriptions almost a impossibility? It takes one guy to sit down to reword the descriptions..

There's well over 1,000 descriptions to update.  And once that's finished, they all have to go to QA.  And once that's finished, they all need to be translated into every language that DA:O supports (there are many!).  And once that's finished, they have to go through QA again for those languages.

It's expensive!

[NobillyT]

Georg Zoeller wrote...
just asking people 'who else wants free pie' generally yields 'yes'.

wait...there's pie? where?!?! 

[Georg Zoeller]

If you ask dog for it, nicely, he will bring you pie. in some areas at least

NobillyT wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...
just asking people 'who else wants free pie' generally yields 'yes'.

wait...there's pie? where?!?! 

[Skemte]

Seifz wrote...

Skemte wrote...

... Wait.......................... Why is detailed descriptions almost a impossibility? It takes one guy to sit down to reword the descriptions..

There's well over 1,000 descriptions to update.  And once that's finished, they all have to go to QA.  And once that's finished, they all need to be translated into every language that DA:O supports (there are many!).  And once that's finished, they have to go through QA again for those languages.

It's expensive!

I think what we are discussing is specifically discriptions when it came to GAME PLAY mechanics.. As it stands I don't know what the hell the amount of defense does for instance for its job.. Having "80" defense is ambigious and doesnt' give me any stats what so ever..
    You would think Bioware would realize this after KOTOR and NWN.. Both games that used a type of D20 system.. In which you knew what 16 strength did because it was a +3 modifer..   This game has none of that.. It doesn't take that much of a change because all people are asking is to actually understand what the hell alot of the stats do for you..  Like what does having 50 physical or mental resistance do?  Does that mean you will resist it 50% of the time?  The ingame description is ambigious at best.
    Or the statistics of actual abilities, as well as how the stats effect them.. Like for instance bard song saying "raises in effectiveness through cunning".. It doesn't say how much, with out testing which the devs should have done.. We have no clue just how effective it is.. While in past games we knew specifically how all mechanics worked.

Modifié par Skemte, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[AND04]

well 1 problem would be that some ability don't have a static effect but scale as well.



For the Bard Song of Valor - taken from the Toolset Source - the Stamina Regeneration Bonus would be: 0.5f + Cunning * 0.01f - with a Cunning Value of 30 that would result in 0.8f - which should ab about 80% faster Stamina Regen.

[Thelgow]

From someone who started rpgs when 5 with d&d 1st ed, I miss the combat log.

I don't necessarily min/max to death, but I do like to get a feel for what the hell is going on.

I tried a respec mod and shifted a lot of stuff for my rogue. Assassin, lethality, the 2nd assassin skill for more cunning to damage, etc. I barely seem like im getting much of an increase. if I knew flat out what the bonus' were I would be a lil happier.

Same with all these spells for a wizard and so few talent points. Really feels like a crap shoot.

[F-C]

bah apparently blackand white pictures are bad on this forum

Modifié par F-C, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:13 .

[Grevier]

Want a valor ui with percentages and more linears lifebars... at least...

Modifié par Grevier, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[F-C]

Modifié par F-C, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:22 .

[egervari]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

-1. I prefer the game without and am sick of hundreds of threads whining about it.

Then make it an OPTION to turn it off then. 

+1

[Naminator236]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I explained this already in a different thread - these are thee different issues.

a) combat log - ain't gonna happen.

A debug for scripters log might happen as we support mod builders, but such a thing would just allow you to use log statements from scripts - most likely to an external source like a file - it would not be he 'combat log' most people have been asking for.

c) detailed descriptions - not as impossible as (a), but certainly out of the cost scope of anything smaller than a full fledged expansion pack. We certainly would like it, but then again, we like horses and flying too, so don't get too optimistic, there is some realities that tend to interfere with even things we like very much.

The most likely outcome is probably

d) Someone creates a new talk table with the descriptions they would like using the toolset.

I've elaborated on this extensively in two other threads already - so I'm not gonna repeat the details anymore and my opinion on petitions is well known - they only make sense if you're actually trying to prioritize between two popular features, just asking people 'who else wants free pie' generally yields 'yes'.

Then what exactly does the budget allows you to do?

I'm sorry but if giving spells or stats a propper description is in the realms of impossibility then is there ANYTHING that you can do? Other then selling us 30 min DLCs?

By anything I mostly mean bug fixes. I know that the DLC team is different from your patch team but if the rate that the patches are coming out and with the amount of bugs those said patches fix is any indication of the future of this title, then I think we will need to wait for DA2 or an exansion pack to have any of the main issues resolved.

There goes my hopes on seeing new features and balances patched in to tthe game.

And I really hope you guys learned something from this! Because I will rage soo hard if ME2 is going be done this way.

Modifié par Naminator236, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:40 .

[egervari]

I have to concur with the above poster. How hard can it really be to update some descriptions? I'm sure someone on this board would happily go through the game's toolset to get the actual values and update the descriptions for free. But to me, that seems like a pretty low-low-low-low budget change :/

[Statue]

DESCRIPTIONS:
I'll do the description editing for free if the extracting the info part of it could be done by someone better at grabbing it from coded stuff. I'm a bit rubbish at using toolsets and such, so that first step would probably make my head explode. But once that part was done, if I had something like a list of the textual descriptions as they are now organized alphabetically by talent/spell/skill name sat in a text file and a list of the fundamental numeric effects sat in another text file, I'd be willing to edit the former to incorporate the latter.

The first part that I couldn't do so easily (grabbing the info out) is partly being done at present by Georg for the Missing Manual project. If that's being done in a way that would make the resulting info amenable to the second stage process of doing the edits as I describe here, I'm volunteering my services to assist.


COMBAT FEEDBACK:
In terms of possible solutions to the combat log/feedback issue, specifically alternative ones to a combat log (which would still be preferential to me whether possible or no, but let's think of other possibilities), I've been thinking about something Georg said about the floaties (can't remember if it was in this thread or another). What he said was about how they could optionally be made to not fleetingly disappear (I'm making a point of saying optionally as I don't want anyone not wanting more combat feedback to worry that considering this solution for the rest of us would change their experience any).

What I'm wondering is whether it would also be equally easy to have multiple floaties above each on-screen character?

If so, the floaty system could be made to do part of the job that combat logs and debuff icons/timers do (perhaps less elegantly) and certainly provide more information on what's going on than currently. I'm imagining another tickbox in the "feedback" part of the options interface allowing players to tick something like "provide persistent floaties" and another to say "provide floaties for all current effects" (or perhaps better so as not to require a player exit to the menu to switch it on and off, a toggle key for it much like the way we can toggle the text for interactive objects - i.e. the hold-down key x to see npc names, "chest" "crate" "barrel" "Elfroot" etc; a similar hold-down key for the "all current effects" floaties would trump a tickbox in the options screen as it would be easier to toggle). I'm imagining pressing that toggle key and, much like the toggle for npc/interactive object names, it displaying combat feedback above heads while that key is held down. In my mind, I'm holding down that key and seeing above an enemy all the current buffs/debuffs/effects that are happening. So as well as "paralyzed" fleetingly appearing and disappearing, I see "paralyzed"  when holding down the toggle key (while the enemy is still paralyzed of course), but not only that but the other current buffs/debuffs/effects and perhaps their remaining durations. Something like:

"Paralyzed: [seconds remaining]
Raged: [seconds remaining]
Resisting ranged damage
etc." (hopefully without it extending to the full height of the screen lol)

That would make it possible to know some things that we can't currently know. For example, we can currently, for some debuffs and buffs, see that they are in effect from visual effects on characters (it's easy for example, to see when an enemy has been frozen). For others it's less clear, and for others still it's not possible at all - and for all it's not possible to see how long is left on that debuff/condition/effect. With the toggle-able multi-line floaties I'm considering here, we could know all of that or more.

Before anyone dismisses the idea out of hand because it wouldn't be as good as a traditional combat log, let me agree that it wouldn't be. It would only tell you what is currently happening and in effect, not what has happened, and it wouldn't be as good-looking or confined to a little sizeable window etc. But as I said above, I'm here considering how, in a world where we'll never have a combat log, we might know at least some similar things by using what we do have currently and twinking it. This is alternative solution consideration, separate from stating what might be the ideal or preferred solution.

There might be other better solutions. Got em? Post em ("don't bother" and "it doesn't need solving" don't qualify as providing an alternative solution by the way, so I'll skimread any of those arising). I'm sure if something came up that would be cake to implement and Georg saw it and the virtue of it he'd consider it.

For now, for this "use-the-floaties-to-increase-combat-feedback" alternative to a log (let's call it the "Floaty Solution" as that's less of a mouthful), I'll ask a coupla questions and hope Georg can answer them:

1) Firstly, is that the kind of thing you were thinking of when you said about making floaties more persistent?
2) Is there a restriction in the UI set-up that would make multi-lined floaties impossible or overly costly/problematic ?
3) Could durations remaining on buffs/debuffs/effects be easily pulled and dropped in those multi-line floaties?
4) Thoughts in general?

Q4 is thrown out to everyone else that wants to consider ways of achieving more in-combat feedback (I'd rather it not be answered at all by people just wanting to ask why I'd want to know the stuff or belittling me for wanting to, but I can't control whether people choose to belittle the preferences of others or not).

And question 5 is of course, any other ideas?

Modifié par Statue, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[bjdbwea]

We really have to differentiate between a combat log and detailed descriptions. Combat log would be nice, but it's not a must. But proper documentation, be it in-game or at least in the manual, is really nothing more than a matter of course. It doesn't shine a good light on BioWare that they omitted something that basic. And to say now that "some realities that tend to interfere" with patching that in (probably meaning that DLC has all the priority), is quite bold as well. Of course we'll all put up with it, because let's face it, even with important features missing, BioWare games still beat all other RPGs, but it's disappointing still and I really hope this trend, as predictable as it was, doesn't continue.

[Statue]

bjdbwea wrote...

We really have to differentiate between a combat log and detailed descriptions.

Agreed, while they both kind of contribute to the same kind of frustrations, they are best treated separately, specially for the purposes of thinking what might effectively be done about them.

[jacobmsn]

Hi all,

As promised a few days ago I began work on a Combat log add-in. Getting the info
from the system was pretty easy - but the hard part is showing the information to the
user. Actually adding a proper window requires some Flash actionscript which i do not
know anything about so I have used the built-in floating messages instead - do are not
reliable though so the combat log does not show all attacks as it is suposed to.

See it in action here:

http://img412.images...09112212133.jpg

The text in this screen shot *is* the internal values used for the combar calculation.

So basically the combat log I have is working except for the fact that the system does show all
my messages as it is supposed to. And unfortunately I can't just write to the 2D screen.

[Statue]

Ooh you star jacobmsn!

That answers my question about whether multi-lined floaties are possible at the same time

Glad u r workin on it and makin such progress so quickly - do you have a separate thread to discuss your add-in in (or if not could I ask you to make one so it can get more of a focused discussion on it). Post a link to a thread about it here please

Modifié par Statue, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[Akka le Vil]

I admit that I'm left scratching my head at why putting actual numbers in the discussion rather than "inflict large damages", "raise your offense and defense" and the like, would require so much work 0_o



Though I'm even more scratching my head at thinking "why the hell did they decide to go with such vague descriptions to begin with ?".

[bjdbwea]

That looks promising! I guess it's not possible to use the conversation history window to store the log?

[hexaligned]

It's not going to happen, the combat mechanics of this game are so broken and unbalanced, they aren't going to release anything that highlights it.

Modifié par relhart, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:46 .