123 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Rifneno wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Loghain was the obvious villain in Ostagar. I mean look at Cailan, Alistair and Duncan. Then look at Uldred and Loghain. I was feeling more sympathetic for Loghain only after several playthroughs and spending alot of time on the BSN. Simply because I started to understand him. And now with DA2 he seems to make even more sense regarding his distrust towards Orlais. Cailan was a fool tbh, and he will go down in history as such. That's why I am now glad to make Alistair King just to prove this point. Because Alistair is at least 10 times the king Cailan was. And Loghain sacrificing Cailan was probably a good thing for all of Ferelden.

Loghain = Prince Behlen who can reach the top shelf.

It's odd then, since in my canon Loghain lives and Bhelen dies. It is never proven to me that Loghain is doing what he is doing for other reasons than being a patriot. His only flaw is that he does not know that the Warden is the main character in a game, which enables the Warden to accomplish the impossible. And that he thinks that Alistair is the same fool as Cailen was. Which is wrong.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[Plaintiff]

AlexXIV wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Loghain was the obvious villain in Ostagar. I mean look at Cailan, Alistair and Duncan. Then look at Uldred and Loghain. I was feeling more sympathetic for Loghain only after several playthroughs and spending alot of time on the BSN. Simply because I started to understand him. And now with DA2 he seems to make even more sense regarding his distrust towards Orlais. Cailan was a fool tbh, and he will go down in history as such. That's why I am now glad to make Alistair King just to prove this point. Because Alistair is at least 10 times the king Cailan was. And Loghain sacrificing Cailan was probably a good thing for all of Ferelden.

Loghain = Prince Behlen who can reach the top shelf.

It's odd then, since in my canon Loghain lives and Bhelen dies. It is never proven to me that Loghain is doing what he is doing for other reasons that being a patriot. His only flaw is that he does not know that the Warden is the main character in a game, which enables the Warden to accomplish the impossible. And that he thinks that Alistair is the same fool as Cailen was. Which is wrong.

It's the other way around for me. I mean, seriously, the guy's been trying to kill me since day one and now I'm supposed to let him on my team? Yeah, no.

I don't really think Cailan is a fool either. He was dealing with Empress Celene, and accordng to Alistair, she's trustworthy and is looking to keep peace, rather than invade. There are elements amongst the Orlesian nobility who want to retake Ferelden, but they're hardly the immediate danger Loghain imagines. If you ask me, Cailan's only mistake was listening to anything that comes out of Loghain's mouth. The man has a history of betraying those closest to him. I wouldn't trust him with my coffee, let alone a country.

[Beerfish]

Reading the stolen throne before DAO painted Loghain in a different light and thus a number of people didn't see the betrayl coming. I was not totally convinced, I thought this time they were setting us up to make him look like the villain.

[Cutlass Jack]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't really think Cailan is a fool either. He was dealing with Empress Celene, and accordng to Alistair, she's trustworthy and is looking to keep peace, rather than invade. There are elements amongst the Orlesian nobility who want to retake Ferelden, but they're hardly the immediate danger Loghain imagines. If you ask me, Cailan's only mistake was listening to anything that comes out of Loghain's mouth. The man has a history of betraying those closest to him. I wouldn't trust him with my coffee, let alone a country.

Cailan was more clever than many give him credit for. He proved that to me when he assigned me to tower duty and 'oh take that Alistair guy with you.' He used his 'giddy excitement about you being a warden' to mask his real intent..protecting the royal line. That's the one reason I usually put Alistair on the throne. To preserve what I felt Cailan's final wish was.

Cailan's one big mistake was exactly what you said. He trusted Loghain would follow his own tactical plan at Ostragar. If the plan had been Calain's I would have had an easier time believing him when he didn't follow through on it.

[nightscrawl]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Anders definitely fooled me. I wouldn't have even collected the ingredients if I'd known what he was up to, but by the time I started getting suspicious, it was too late. He had what he needed.

This for me as well. And you know, I had to help out my boyfriend when he asked for help... silly me >.>.

I've gotta say though, the very first time I saw the chantry explode my mouth was gaping. Not only was it a great cutscene, but totally unexpected! O_O

Grace too. Thanks, Grace.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[Toastedsnow]

I need you to distract the grand cleric for me so I can undo this joining, see? I promise not to do anything monumentally idiotic.
*few weeks later, the entire church explodes*

[Saephy]

Yeah, Loghain was another one I saw coming from a mile away, he pretty much seals the deal when he says "It will be a glorious moment for us all", this is where the moustache-twirling would have taken place.

[AlexXIV]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't really think Cailan is a fool either. He was dealing with Empress Celene, and accordng to Alistair, she's trustworthy and is looking to keep peace, rather than invade. There are elements amongst the Orlesian nobility who want to retake Ferelden, but they're hardly the immediate danger Loghain imagines. If you ask me, Cailan's only mistake was listening to anything that comes out of Loghain's mouth. The man has a history of betraying those closest to him. I wouldn't trust him with my coffee, let alone a country.

Cailan was more clever than many give him credit for. He proved that to me when he assigned me to tower duty and 'oh take that Alistair guy with you.' He used his 'giddy excitement about you being a warden' to mask his real intent..protecting the royal line. That's the one reason I usually put Alistair on the throne. To preserve what I felt Cailan's final wish was.

Cailan's one big mistake was exactly what you said. He trusted Loghain would follow his own tactical plan at Ostragar. If the plan had been Calain's I would have had an easier time believing him when he didn't follow through on it.

Well that's really something I am never 100% sure about. Because the big question in Loghain's betrayal is whether it was necessary or not. I mean if he charged, according to the plan, would they have won? We don't know. I mean if Loghain and his men had charged in and died with the rest, then who would have prevented the Orlesians to take over Ferelden again?

[Avilia]

Sela Petrae - bit of a give away there ;-) Anders couldn't lie well enough to fool me on that one. The coming boom as very well telegraphed.

Let's see - what fooled me? I kept expecting Isabela to come back with the book. Orsino turning all flesh golem was a surprise (and extremely odd). I was surprised when the Qunari killed Sister Petrice (but that might not count).

Modifié par Avilia, 15 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[ImoenBaby]

Cutlass Jack wrote...


Cailan was more clever than many give him credit for. He proved that to me when he assigned me to tower duty and 'oh take that Alistair guy with you.' He used his 'giddy excitement about you being a warden' to mask his real intent..protecting the royal line.

You know, I've always wondered about that. I thought Cailan didn't want to share the glory with his half-brother, because Alistair got to join the legendary Wardens and live the kind of life Cailan might have dreamed of.

[Cutlass Jack]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well that's really something I am never 100% sure about. Because the big question in Loghain's betrayal is whether it was necessary or not. I mean if he charged, according to the plan, would they have won? We don't know. I mean if Loghain and his men had charged in and died with the rest, then who would have prevented the Orlesians to take over Ferelden again?

That's not the real issue to me. I think its reasonable not to commit suicide when you know you can't win. I would not fault him if this were the case. Not very heroic, but he's not the hero.

However Loghain's plan required the Tower being lit to let him know when the enemy was in position. If he could see the battlefield, he wouldn't need the signal. If the enemy could see where he hid the bulk of their forces, the plan wouldn't have worked. So I don't think he really knew if they had a chance of winning or not.

Loghain intended his own people to be responsible for the torch. While it can't be proven either way, I think he never intended it to be lit. Which is why he objected to Wardens being in charge of it. Its my belief he never intended to commit his forces to the field. He had already put events into place prior at Redcliffe and Highever. Removing Cailan's two strongest allies from the field.

There's been long essays and arguements on this topic ever since Origins came out. I don't think it will truly be settled one way or the other. The writers enjoy their being no easy answers so avoided clarifying it in either direction. So I'll just call it my take on it.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 15 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[AlexXIV]

ImoenBaby wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...


Cailan was more clever than many give him credit for. He proved that to me when he assigned me to tower duty and 'oh take that Alistair guy with you.' He used his 'giddy excitement about you being a warden' to mask his real intent..protecting the royal line.

You know, I've always wondered about that. I thought Cailan didn't want to share the glory with his half-brother, because Alistair got to join the legendary Wardens and live the kind of life Cailan might have dreamed of.

I always thought it was actually Duncan's plan. Because I think Duncan was more aware that they could lose this time than Cailan. And Duncan knew that if Cailan died, Alistair would be the last of the bloodline and a Warden and Warden-supporter at that. I think Alistair also mentions that Duncan always tried to keep Alistiar out of danger. As good as it is possible as a Warden that is.

[Rifneno]

AlexXIV wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Loghain was the obvious villain in Ostagar. I mean look at Cailan, Alistair and Duncan. Then look at Uldred and Loghain. I was feeling more sympathetic for Loghain only after several playthroughs and spending alot of time on the BSN. Simply because I started to understand him. And now with DA2 he seems to make even more sense regarding his distrust towards Orlais. Cailan was a fool tbh, and he will go down in history as such. That's why I am now glad to make Alistair King just to prove this point. Because Alistair is at least 10 times the king Cailan was. And Loghain sacrificing Cailan was probably a good thing for all of Ferelden.

Loghain = Prince Behlen who can reach the top shelf.

It's odd then, since in my canon Loghain lives and Bhelen dies. It is never proven to me that Loghain is doing what he is doing for other reasons than being a patriot. His only flaw is that he does not know that the Warden is the main character in a game, which enables the Warden to accomplish the impossible. And that he thinks that Alistair is the same fool as Cailen was. Which is wrong.

The guy sold people to Tevinter slavers.  He lets Howe run amok.  But I'm still hung up on the "sold people to Tevinter slavers."

Also, you forgot that he thought the grey wardens were unnecessary to defeat the blight.  It would've been a lolacaust when he gloriously slew the archdemon... and a nearby genlock sprouted wings and started breathing corrupted flame.

[Cutlass Jack]

AlexXIV wrote...
I always thought it was actually Duncan's plan. Because I think Duncan was more aware that they could lose this time than Cailan. And Duncan knew that if Cailan died, Alistair would be the last of the bloodline and a Warden and Warden-supporter at that. I think Alistair also mentions that Duncan always tried to keep Alistiar out of danger. As good as it is possible as a Warden that is.

I thought it was clearly not Duncan's plan. He made it clear that nothing at Ostragar was how he would have done things. I think he went along with Cailian's request for those reasons. But if he were truly overprotective of Alistair he never would have recruited him in the first place. He made it pretty clear the Joining wasn't doing anyone any favors.

[AlexXIV]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well that's really something I am never 100% sure about. Because the big question in Loghain's betrayal is whether it was necessary or not. I mean if he charged, according to the plan, would they have won? We don't know. I mean if Loghain and his men had charged in and died with the rest, then who would have prevented the Orlesians to take over Ferelden again?

That's not the real issue to me. I think its reasonable not to commit suicide when you know you can't win. I would not fault him if this were the case. Not very heroic, but he's not the hero.

However Loghain's plan required the Tower being lit to let him know when the enemy was in position. If he could see the battlefield, he wouldn't need the signal. If the enemy could see where he hid the bulk of their forces, the plan wouldn't have worked. So I don't think he really knew if they had a chance of winning or not.

Loghain intended his own people to be responsible for the torch. While it can't be proven either way, I think he never intended it to be lit. Which is why he objected to Wardens being in charge of it. Its my belief he never intended to commit his forces to the field. He had already put events into place prior at Redcliffe and Highever. Removing Cailan's two strongest allies from the field.

There's been long essays and arguements on this topic ever since Origins came out. I don't think it will truly be settled one way or the other. The writers enjoy their being no easy answers so avoided clarifying it in either direction. So I'll just call it my take on it.

I don't remember him objecting with the Wardens lighting it. Also the signal might have come late. The plan didn't foresee all the darkspawn in the tower so that the Wardens had to fight all the way to the top. I am not saying Loghain is innocent or anything or a nice person. I mean he poisoned the arl, sold elves as slaves, let Howe torture nobles, etc. etc. Question for me is rather if there is anything redeemable about his character. For example whether his intentions were good at least. Or how desperate he was. And I concluded he deserves a second chance at the Landsmeet and never regretted it.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[Kilshrek]

ForeignPatriot wrote...

For me it was the travesty prostitute in the blooming rose. The one and only time I did it to see what would happen I said, this elf here looks alright...

I could hear my male Hawke's screams of terror

+1

[AlexXIV]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I always thought it was actually Duncan's plan. Because I think Duncan was more aware that they could lose this time than Cailan. And Duncan knew that if Cailan died, Alistair would be the last of the bloodline and a Warden and Warden-supporter at that. I think Alistair also mentions that Duncan always tried to keep Alistiar out of danger. As good as it is possible as a Warden that is.

I thought it was clearly not Duncan's plan. He made it clear that nothing at Ostragar was how he would have done things. I think he went along with Cailian's request for those reasons. But if he were truly overprotective of Alistair he never would have recruited him in the first place. He made it pretty clear the Joining wasn't doing anyone any favors.

I don't really think being Templar is better. Also as Alistair admitted in a banter with Morrigan he would probably have turned into a drooling lunatic and slaughtered the Grand Cleric while wearing only his undies.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[ImoenBaby]

Rifneno wrote...

 It would've been a lolacaust when he gloriously slew the archdemon... and a nearby genlock sprouted wings and started breathing corrupted flame.

*chuckle*

[Rifneno]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't remember him objecting with the Wardens lighting it. Also the signal might have come late. The plan didn't foresee all the darkspawn in the tower so that the Wardens had to fight all the way to the top. I am not saying Loghain is innocent or anything or a nice person. I mean he poisoned the arl, sold elves as slaves, let Howe torture nobles, etc. etc. Question for me is rather if there is anything redeemable about his character. For example whether his intentions were good at least. Or how desperate he was. And I concluded he deserves a second chance at the Landsmeet and never regretted it.

IMO, what he deserves is irrelevant.  When you accidentally burn a cake, you deserve a second chance.  When you've caused the deaths of thousands through your sheer arrogance that only you can win a battle, you deserve nothing.  The real question was "is it better for Ferelden, for Thedas, if he lives?"  Given that such would have to involve his skank of a daughter to be queen, I have to firmly vote "no."

[PlumPaul93]

believing that there would be multiple choices in DA2

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...
Given that such would have to involve his skank of a daughter to be queen, I have to firmly vote "no."

Probably the last word I'd use to describe someone who apparently wasn't having much sex with anyone.

[Rifneno]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Given that such would have to involve his skank of a daughter to be queen, I have to firmly vote "no."

Probably the last word I'd use to describe someone who apparently wasn't having much sex with anyone.

I don't know enough misogynist insults.  So sue me.  

[Plaintiff]

Oh man, Anora makes me laugh. I can find it easier to believe that people would consider her trustworthy and capable, at least more so than Loghain. Her confidence is very reassuring. I think people get distracted by it, they think "Oh wow, a confident woman in politics. She's so contemporary and awesome!"

It totally worked on me, I'm ashamed to say. I had her marry poor Alistair several times. It took me a couple of playthroughs to realize that she doesn't actually DO anything of value the whole time you see her.

"Oh yeah, I was totally the brains behind the crown. That's why I chickened out and let my dad take over!"

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[Rockpopple]

I also fell for Anders' "Justice Potion" sphiel. Can't believe it. I wasn't paying enough attention.

I also gave a lot of the Mages in this game the benefit of the doubt...

[SilentK]

Guess I'm one of the few who had no idea what Anders was up to... That was quite a shock on the first Hawke that I played blind. And yes, I got fooled by Grace because that Hawke was a pro-mage gullible girl who just couldn't say no to Merrill and the eluvian. It ended with a lot of dead elves on that q. My first char in a new game always end up doing lot's of stupid things =) but it's fun.