108 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

Scenario one:

The Champion sides with the templars and annihilates mage resistance. First Enchanter Orsino in desperation resorts to blood magic to transform himself into a harvester. Makes sense.

Scenario two:

The Champion sides with the mages and routs templar attacks. Victory seems in sight, templars lost many men. But wait, Orsino goes psycho anyway, transforms and attacks you for no reason at all.


What is the whole point of the ending if the outcome is the same? The ending sucks.

[Kilshrek]

I take it you never got the "true" ending then?

[Siegdrifa]

Kilshrek wrote...

I take it you never got the "true" ending then?

 I'm curious, what is the true ending for you?

[paufiero]

what was the "true" ending?

[PlumPaul93]

agreed absolutely horrible ending. No choice as was all of DA2

[caradoc2000]

Wherever you go, there you are.

[Kilshrek]

I don't know what the true ending is, I'm still trying to find it myself. I just thought I'd get a funnier reaction than "what is the true ending?"

Of course it could all begin with Varric saying "No ****, there I was....."

[Plaintiff]

Even if they were winning, (which is not the impression I got, having sided with the mages), battle can be quite traumatic. He's surrounded by death on all sides, you really expect him to be upbeat?

[AlexXIV]

Kilshrek wrote...

I don't know what the true ending is, I'm still trying to find it myself. I just thought I'd get a funnier reaction than "what is the true ending?"

Of course it could all begin with Varric saying "No ****, there I was....."

Obviously even Cassandra didn't get Varric to tell the true ending. Shame.

[GavrielKay]

I don't expect Orsino to be upbeat, but when you're on his side, could he at least turn crazy when we're surrounded and take out a few of the enemy first?

[AlexXIV]

Plaintiff wrote...

Even if they were winning, (which is not the impression I got, having sided with the mages), battle can be quite traumatic. He's surrounded by death on all sides, you really expect him to be upbeat?

First enchanter is officially the head of the Circle. At least according to KC Gregoire. Templars are actually only sort of advisors and guardians. So how come he even learned blood magic? How come Irving let a book about bloodmagic lie openly around so Jowan could find it? I don't know but I somehow have the feeling the first Enchanters don't take their job really serious. I mean Orsino might have suffered from the stress situation when he decided to turn into Harvester. But when the hell did he figure that this would be a good thing to know in the first place? I mean even if the Harvester would have killed everyone, what would have been gained?

[Kimberly Shaw]

I've posted on this before.

My opinion is that they wanted you to fight their 2 big main bosses in the same order no matter what decision you made.

You are the CHAMPION of Kirkwall. You have felled armies worth of demons, darkspawn, thugs, blood mages, Qunari, etc. You have beaten the Arishok in single combat. You have taken down a HIGH DRAGON. You have killed Ogres. You've been to the Deep Roads and Back Again. Your allies are with you, and you've just easily dispatched a throng of Templars without breaking a sweat. Orsino resorting to Blood Magic because he is certain of your doom is STUPID and cannot be justified in the way it was told and that is why so many people hate that ending.  Especially given that the ending tells us that plenty of mages escaped the Circle anyway with or without the Champions helping the mages.

My take on it would have been either the player asks about Quentin and your mother/blood magic in some discussion with Orsino about Blood Magic / the Templars / Meredith's vigilance and he trips up and reveals that he helped Quentin and the player loses it and decides to attack Orsino for his involvement OR perhaps a cutscene where Meredith comes in and fells us in a cinematic and as we're staggering to get up again Orsino thinks we're going to lose so he acts as he did if we sided with Meredith and turns to Blood Magic saying he never used it before etc.

Either of those two would have been much better than how it was handled.

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 15 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[Urazz]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Scenario one:

The Champion sides with the templars and annihilates mage resistance. First Enchanter Orsino in desperation resorts to blood magic to transform himself into a harvester. Makes sense.

Scenario two:

The Champion sides with the mages and routs templar attacks. Victory seems in sight, templars lost many men. But wait, Orsino goes psycho anyway, transforms and attacks you for no reason at all.


What is the whole point of the ending if the outcome is the same? The ending sucks.

Actually scenario 2 is that the Champion helps routes some templar attacks but things still look bleak and that the templars could still wipe out the mages of Kirkwall.  Orsino's reasoning for transforming into a Harvester regardless of the scenarios is to buy time for other mages to escape the Gallows and spread word to the other Circles of what happened in Kirkwall.

Personally, they could've easily set it up to fight both bosses when you choose the mage side of the conflict.

Modifié par Urazz, 15 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[LobselVith8]

wowpwnslol wrote...

What is the whole point of the ending if the outcome is the same? The ending sucks.

The only difference I noticed was that either Hawke ends up as a hero to the mages and his name becomes a rallying cry for revolution, or Hawke becames a hero of the templars and a villain of the mages as a reminder of their "brutal oppression," but the death of the Circle of Kirkwall inspires them for revolution.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Actually scenario 2 is that the Champion helps routes some templar attacks but things still look bleak and that the templars could still wipe out the mages of Kirkwall.

Except, the Champion and his allies are stronger than Meredith and her allies, and this is proven in the next fight; and everyone should know this because Meredith never stands up to Hawke previously, and Hawke has done amazing things (see my post) that are only made even more amazing by Varric talking up the champion in everyone including presumably Orsino's eyes.

[Rockpopple]

Someone mentioned it here before, but they said it looks like the Templar side of Act III was thoroughly written and finished, and the Mage side was shoehorned in for time.

When you play the game, it certainly seems that way. The Templar side of the ending makes only 1,000,000 x more sense than the Mage side. =/

At the same time, tho, the Templars are repeatedly known to be an "army" and to be the "power of Kirkwall". Strip all the things Hawke does in Gameplay that nobody refers to, such as slaying the High Dragon. Gameplay =/= plot. In the plot, Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and a badass and all that, but even he and his plucky band of badasses can't take on an entire army of Magic-negating Templars.

What Hawke and co. took out in the ending was merely the 1st wave. Heck, it might even have been a scouting group. Not even close to being the main group. Then again the game kinda waffles on how many Templars are in Kirkwall at any given time. Sometimes it's a huge amount, sometimes they're strained... but maybe that's because of the huge amount of apostates running around...

Gah. Confusing.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 15 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[AlexXIV]

Rockpopple wrote...

Someone mentioned it here before, but they said it looks like the Templar side of Act III was thoroughly written and finished, and the Mage side was shoehorned in for time.

When you play the game, it certainly seems that way. The Templar side of the ending makes only 1,000,000 x more sense than the Mage side. =/

I don't think any side makes sense. That's why the 'third option' disappears if you choose it. What? Doing the smart thing? Not in our game.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Strip all the things Hawke does in Gameplay that nobody refers to, such as slaying the High Dragon

I had people in Kirkwall refer to this in my play throughs.

And yes, there was NO reason given why Hawke couldn't simply say "I'm not picking sides, you idiots settle this yourself".

[Rockpopple]

I stand corrected then. I couldn't find anyone refer to that in my playthrough but apparently I didn't look hard enough.

In any case, I do wonder how a "none-of-the-above" choice would have worked. The mechanics of it, I mean. How would Hawke had been drawn into the ending not choosing a side? Or would he have been pulled into the battle at the Gallows at all? Hm...

[Kimberly Shaw]

I think it could have worked, he would have chosen to side with the People of Kirkwall as THEIR Champion. Aveline says her guards are busy saving the people from the Mages and the Templars if you ask her for their help. So why can't we do what they are doing?

Eventually in saving them Orsino is come across and does his harvestor thing, yikes, he has to be killed. Then after that Meredith comes around and attacks you because she's batsh!t lyrium MacGuffen'ed and then the people elect you Viscount afterwards (sorta simliar to the Templar sided ending).

Not that hard to come up with, really. Just need to come up with a reason to find Orsino in Hightown pre-Harvestor rather than the Gallows (given that everything starts in Hightown outside the Chantry it wouldn't be that hard).

[Rockpopple]

Hm... maybe...

Except why would Templars be outside the Gallows, attacking the people? The whole argument is over the Right of Annulment. Meredith wants to Annul the Circle, Orsino wants himself and his people to all not die.

Yes, staying in Hightown protecting the people from rogue Mages as they try to escape Annulment makes sense, but it wouldn't stop the overall battle/slaughter going on in the Gallows. So... what, would Hawke be twiddling his thumbs watching the Gallows burn going, "Well at least the normal people of Kirkwall are safe"

I'm not sure it would work, but I'm genuinely curious as to ideas.

Edit: I just realised that in choosing for Hawke not to help either the Templars or the Mages, but the people of Kirkwall, Hawke is de-facto choosing to side with the Templars. I'm sure Meredith is as happy with Hawke staying out of her way as she is with Hawke helping her kill every single Mage in Kirkwall.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 15 avril 2011 - 04:08 .

[AlexXIV]

Rockpopple wrote...

I stand corrected then. I couldn't find anyone refer to that in my playthrough but apparently I didn't look hard enough.

In any case, I do wonder how a "none-of-the-above" choice would have worked. The mechanics of it, I mean. How would Hawke had been drawn into the ending not choosing a side? Or would he have been pulled into the battle at the Gallows at all? Hm...

Well Hawke leaves to support Aveline and the city guards, then templars fight vs. mages. Orsino turns into a Harvester and goes rampage, the templars retreat. Hawke is now forced to fight the Harvester with the city guards because the Orsino-Harvester threatens to destroy the whole city. After Hawke defeats the Harvester, Meredith and the templars come back and Meredith tries to arrest Hawke. Cullen disagrees and Meredith goes rampage.

Same result as siding with templars or mages, just without making Hawke choose one side.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 avril 2011 - 04:14 .

[theauthority]

Rockpopple wrote...

Hm... maybe...

Except why would Templars be outside the Gallows, attacking the people? The whole argument is over the Right of Annulment. Meredith wants to Annul the Circle, Orsino wants himself and his people to all not die.

Yes, staying in Hightown protecting the people from rogue Mages as they try to escape Annulment makes sense, but it wouldn't stop the overall battle/slaughter going on in the Gallows. So... what, would Hawke be twiddling his thumbs watching the Gallows burn going, "Well at least the normal people of Kirkwall are safe"

I'm not sure it would work, but I'm genuinely curious as to ideas.

Edit: I just realised that in choosing for Hawke not to help either the Templars or the Mages, but the people of Kirkwall, Hawke is de-facto choosing to side with the Templars. I'm sure Meredith is as happy with Hawke staying out of her way as she is with Hawke helping her kill every single Mage in Kirkwall.

Or you might see Hawke trying to re-establish a kind of "human" government, Chantry- and Circle-free, much like the Viscount before him/her. Aveline might have helped sheltering and protecting civilians and the city  would have rallied around its Champion. Uh, this makes more sense than the two forced options - to me, at least.

Edit: wow, same ideas struck at once, AlexXIV, yours was more detailed though.

Modifié par theauthority, 15 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Shamajotsi]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Actually scenario 2 is that the Champion helps routes some templar attacks but things still look bleak and that the templars could still wipe out the mages of Kirkwall.

Except, the Champion and his allies are stronger than Meredith and her allies, and this is proven in the next fight; and everyone should know this because Meredith never stands up to Hawke previously, and Hawke has done amazing things (see my post) that are only made even more amazing by Varric talking up the champion in everyone including presumably Orsino's eyes.

We have no indications that Orsino was a fortune-teller, so as far as he is concerned, up to the moment when he turns into a Harvester, almost all of the people on his side are dead - the ones who are still fighting for him are the Champion and six of his allies. Hawke is a powerfull man, indeed, he defeated the Arishok, true, but he didn't stop the entire force of the Qun, and nobody knows whether he can stop all of the Templars. A brief note here: Orsino doesn't know that the final battle will be just between Meridith and some statues of the Gallows. He and everybody else still thinks that the enemy is the Templars in their entirety. Do you think that If Hawke was to battle Meredith + all of the Templars, he would have won? I doubt that. Not to mention that in this specific battle he actually gains support from Cullen and some unexpected appearances.

So, was Orsino justified to use blood magic? No, according to me. Did he have the reasons to believe all of the stories for Hawke defeating High Dragons, Demons and Old Gods? Seen how these stories most probably originate from Varrik, I'd dare say no. Did he have the reasons to be so afraid to resort to such measures, after almost everyone on his side was dead and he was facing an enormous, nigh undefeatable enemy? Absolutelly.

P. S. Otherwise, I agree that a "Neutral Defender of the People of Kirkwall Who Are Just Caught in the Middle" was perfectly doable and it is a pity that we don't get the option to chose this.

Modifié par Shamajotsi, 15 avril 2011 - 04:20 .

[Rockpopple]

Well again, in that scenario Hawke did choose a de-facto side.

I could see that mostly working, tho... except if the Harvester went on a rampage in the Gallows, there'd be no reason for Hawke to go into the Gallows and fight it. Because he's not choosing a side, and the Harvester is just a part of their war. So in order for Hawke to get involved, the Harvester would have to appear in the city.

And if Hawke kills a monster in the city, I don't really see a reason for Meredith, even as crazy paranoid as she was, to attempt to arrest Hawke. After-all, it wasn't in the Gallows. But I'm not sure what her reasoning is to arrest Hawke during the Templar ending was...