108 réponses à ce sujet

[p95h]

You forgot Scenario #3:

Grand Cleric Elthina actually steps up to the plate, Asks the Divine to send a replacement for Meredith as Knight Comander, and sends Meredith to Orlais for retraining and reeducation.

Oh, problem solved, before it becomes a problem.....*facepalm*

[Fiskrens]

Reading through this thread, I can't help feel that a lot of posters are upset because Bioware didn't choose to tell the story exactly the way they wanted. I, on the other hand felt it was kind of refreshing to not be able to play The Hero That Changed It All, that the protagonist is just another person (albeit powerful one) that is swept with the current in these changing times and all he/she can do is

" decide is what to do with the time that is given to him/her"

.

No matter which side Hawke chooses, the battle is only beginning; if mages, an army is coming (and I personally made Sebastian wov to return with his own) and if templars, the mages of Kirkwall may have been extinguished, but the Circles outside will have heard of this and continued the revolt. The epilogue says me that this is mainly what DA3 is all about.

But yes, I still do feel that Bio could have put more work into the siding with mages part; Orsino's untimely changed could have been much better written.

[AlexXIV]

[quote]Fiskrens1 wrote...

Reading through this thread, I can't help feel that a lot of posters are upset because Bioware didn't choose to tell the story exactly the way they wanted. I, on the other hand felt it was kind of refreshing to not be able to play The Hero That Changed It All, that the protagonist is just another person (albeit powerful one) that is swept with the current in these changing times and all he/she can do is [quote=Gandalf]" decide is what to do with the time that is given to him/her".

No matter which side Hawke chooses, the battle is only beginning; if mages, an army is coming (and I personally made Sebastian wov to return with his own) and if templars, the mages of Kirkwall may have been extinguished, but the Circles outside will have heard of this and continued the revolt. The epilogue says me that this is mainly what DA3 is all about.

But yes, I still do feel that Bio could have put more work into the siding with mages part; Orsino's untimely changed could have been much better written.
[/quote]

I hardly complain about things not written in the way I want it. But I at least expect it to make sense. Not just handwave me into plot events. I mean most of the time you just go on because you are used to pick up or finish quests, without really having any real goal other than to finish the game at some point.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Lord Gremlin]

I've played as a mage and sided with mages. Truth be told, I got a 5/10 vibe from the game. Anyway I'm glad to see OP getting a lot of attention - it basically sums up my thoughts perfectly.

[Augustei]

p95h wrote...

You forgot Scenario #3:

Grand Cleric Elthina actually steps up to the plate, Asks the Divine to send a replacement for Meredith as Knight Comander, and sends Meredith to Orlais for retraining and reeducation.

Oh, problem solved, before it becomes a problem.....*facepalm*

she didn't need to even do that, she could have forced her to step down and have Cullen take her place

[FedericoV]

AlexXIV wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Someone mentioned it here before, but they said it looks like the Templar side of Act III was thoroughly written and finished, and the Mage side was shoehorned in for time.

When you play the game, it certainly seems that way. The Templar side of the ending makes only 1,000,000 x more sense than the Mage side. =/

I don't think any side makes sense. That's why the 'third option' disappears if you choose it. What? Doing the smart thing? Not in our game.

I do agree with AlexXIV.

[Shamajotsi]

XxDeonxX wrote...

p95h wrote...

You forgot Scenario #3:

Grand Cleric Elthina actually steps up to the plate, Asks the Divine to send a replacement for Meredith as Knight Comander, and sends Meredith to Orlais for retraining and reeducation.

Oh, problem solved, before it becomes a problem.....*facepalm*

she didn't need to even do that, she could have forced her to step down and have Cullen take her place

I guess this is way esier said than done. History has shown examples of people having great reputation and thus being difficult to remove from power once they begin to lose their marbles. Meridith was known and actually vallued for being an uncompromising Knight Commander. Not to mention that the Grand Cleric maybe didn't have the exact same political views, but she had no reason and no desire to replace her, just because Ethina wasn't sure whether the mages were treated the way they should be.

So, somehow I can't imagine Ethina writing a letter to Val Royeaux saying "Hey, do you remember Meredith? You know, the one, who strenghtened the rule of the Templars in one of the most important cities in the Free Marches? Well, I am concerned that she doesn't treat the mages - the ones, who, as you know (otherwise why send Sister Nightingale?) are getting more and more out hand - the way she should. I mean, sure, apostates, blood mages, abominations and whatever, but I... well, I guess I just don't like her new big reddish sword with a skull on it."

[Roniziwa]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Scenario one:

The Champion sides with the templars and annihilates mage resistance. First Enchanter Orsino in desperation resorts to blood magic to transform himself into a harvester. Makes sense.

Scenario two:

The Champion sides with the mages and routs templar attacks. Victory seems in sight, templars lost many men. But wait, Orsino goes psycho anyway, transforms and attacks you for no reason at all.


What is the whole point of the ending if the outcome is the same? The ending sucks.

Completed my 4th run through last night. Played a Templar for kicks, and while the build is fun, there's absolutely nothing in the storyline that acknowledges your "Templarness", as opposed to mages. At least the mage class is parcel to the alternate story. So you side with Meredith against your better judgement, and.. wait. Same stuff. Same Orsino encounter, although you learn better that he inadvertently aided your mother's killer, and then Meredith turns on you in a matter of seconds and you're fighting her just the same.

The whole "grrr mage vs. templar" thing gets old fast imo, and its been told already in DA:O. What's worse is the fact that the mages are more or less made out to be more wholesome so siding with the Templars is inevitably going to feel dirty. If this were done right, there'd be better justification - and differing storylines - to either side imo. I've always been a mage type in most RPGs but I bet there are plenty of Paladin types out there also who would've liked the alternative without being a tyrant.

1) "Yes I've been a wholesome mage defending First Enchanter but now I'm going to turn to Blood Magic and GRRRR fear my graphics" /end 5 second personality transition

2) "I'm going to be a nasty Templar leader person no matter how much depth you'd like me to have and your companions will hate me until the very end when they'll assume one stance or the other."

On the bright side, I learned you can kill off Anders and still have a (less effective) healer during the end. At least in my story sis returned as a Grey Warden. I assume she'll do the same if she is with the Circle.

[edit]

Oh yeah - forgot to add - Cullen and the other Templars bowed down to me at the end - and there was a quick line from Varric's epilogue about "everyone in Krikwall virtually begging the Champion to rule it".. but nonetheless the PC goes AWOL. Why under those circumstances would the Champion leave? No explaination that I could see but guessing its so that Varric's voiceactor didn't have to record addtional lines...

Modifié par Roniziwa, 16 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Darkhour]

Plaintiff wrote...

Even if they were winning, (which is not the impression I got, having sided with the mages), battle can be quite traumatic. He's surrounded by death on all sides, you really expect him to be upbeat?

The "death on all sides" is forced on you.  EVERY LAST MAGES WAS STILL STANDING before I killed the last templar and then they all suddenly dropped dead.  It's a bull****.  Everything is on rails.  Too many possible outcomes when you include DA:O so they "streamlined" it. Basically, only DA:O is meaningful. DA2 is not even necessary as everyone will have the same ending if they played the game or not. The only thing that would be different is did the Chamion show up with his sister or brother.

[IanPolaris]

Fiskrens1 wrote...

Reading through this thread, I can't help feel that a lot of posters are upset because Bioware didn't choose to tell the story exactly the way they wanted. I, on the other hand felt it was kind of refreshing to not be able to play The Hero That Changed It All, that the protagonist is just another person (albeit powerful one) that is swept with the current in these changing times and all he/she can do is

" decide is what to do with the time that is given to him/her"

.

The problem is that isn't the game we were promised.  We were promised we' d be able to play as perhaps the most important person in Thedas.  We can't.  Hawke is not that important.  Certainly by calling it "Dragon Age 2", we are at least implicitly promised a role at least as varied and flexible as the warden in DAO.

And you wonder why so many of us are less than thrilled......

-Polaris

[Ollymandias]

Regarding Orsino going nuts and turning into a Harvester even though Hawke and Co. can kill anything:

I interpreted his despair at not just the immediate peril he and the mages in his charge were in, but that he was realising that it would not be over even if that battle was won. Even if they fled to other Circles or turned apostate and went underground, they would not be able to escape the mage conflict which Anders had set in motion. Even if Hawke killed every Templar in Kirkwall, Orsino could quite plausibly come to the conclusion that between possible impending Chantry marches, or perhaps Sebastian's Starkhaven army come to raze Kirkwall, or the inevitable public outcry against mages after seeing Elthina blown sky high, and the prospect of the conflict spreading to all the other Circles in Thedas, that he would never be able to live in peace.

Turning into a corpse golem and committing suicide by Hawke is still extremely irresponsible and stupid, but it's less out of the blue when considering this perspective.

[TJPags]

Ollymandias wrote...

Regarding Orsino going nuts and turning into a Harvester even though Hawke and Co. can kill anything:

I interpreted his despair at not just the immediate peril he and the mages in his charge were in, but that he was realising that it would not be over even if that battle was won. Even if they fled to other Circles or turned apostate and went underground, they would not be able to escape the mage conflict which Anders had set in motion. Even if Hawke killed every Templar in Kirkwall, Orsino could quite plausibly come to the conclusion that between possible impending Chantry marches, or perhaps Sebastian's Starkhaven army come to raze Kirkwall, or the inevitable public outcry against mages after seeing Elthina blown sky high, and the prospect of the conflict spreading to all the other Circles in Thedas, that he would never be able to live in peace.

Turning into a corpse golem and committing suicide by Hawke is still extremely irresponsible and stupid, but it's less out of the blue when considering this perspective.

You know, that's an interesting take on it.

Orsino did seem shocked and, IMO, horrified by what Anders had done.  Doesn't excuse at all the whole Harvester thing, especially the timing of it.

However, it also demonstrates why what Anders did was, IMO, inexcusable.  Anders decided for all mages - and Orsino is one who, frustrated as he was with Meredith, sure didn't seem to want that outcome.

[Ayanko]

And then the warden woke up from his terrible nightmare.

[Kimberly Shaw]

What is the point of sending an army to Kirkwall at the end of the game? Who is the army going to conquer? Anders is dead or flead...the Circle is annuled and the First enchanter dead. I don't understand why the Divine or powerless Sebastien who can suddenly raise an army wants to come back at all

[The Angry One]

Any Orsino topic must include this.

[jds1bio]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Fiskrens1 wrote...

Reading through this thread, I can't help feel that a lot of posters are upset because Bioware didn't choose to tell the story exactly the way they wanted. I, on the other hand felt it was kind of refreshing to not be able to play The Hero That Changed It All, that the protagonist is just another person (albeit powerful one) that is swept with the current in these changing times and all he/she can do is [quote=Gandalf]" decide is what to do with the time that is given to him/her"[/quote].

The problem is that isn't the game we were promised.  We were promised we' d be able to play as perhaps the most important person in Thedas.  We can't.  Hawke is not that important.  Certainly by calling it "Dragon Age 2", we are at least implicitly promised a role at least as varied and flexible as the warden in DAO.

And you wonder why so many of us are less than thrilled......

-Polaris[/quote]

I think the story itself is fine.  But the time that was given to us to play Hawke was marketed as a "Rise To Power".  Except that they did not let us exercise that power.

Modifié par jds1bio, 16 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[tausra]

Wasn't a rise to power, it was a Ride to the end of the Railroad.

[Torax]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

What is the point of sending an army to Kirkwall at the end of the game? Who is the army going to conquer? Anders is dead or flead...the Circle is annuled and the First enchanter dead. I don't understand why the Divine or powerless Sebastien who can suddenly raise an army wants to come back at all

Should point out that if Hawke presses Sebastian about his sending an Army. Sebastian then says how he will come back on his own to kill "your precious Anders". It's the only one he truly wants dead though I'm sure he's hating Hawke at that moment to.

[wowpwnslol]

There should also have been an option to kill Sebastian. By far the most pansy character in the game - and Hawke lets him go to supposedly return with an army? Stupid.

[The Angry One]

wowpwnslol wrote...

There should also have been an option to kill Sebastian. By far the most pansy character in the game - and Hawke lets him go to supposedly return with an army? Stupid.

And you really think he's going to return with an army as opposed to sitting in the Starkhaven Chantry posting wanted notes for Anders for the next 10 years?

[Kimberly Shaw]

wowpwnslol wrote...

There should also have been an option to kill Sebastian. By far the most pansy character in the game - and Hawke lets him go to supposedly return with an army? Stupid.

Sebastien  says something like "I won't fight you here, my death would prove nothing" or something which is a major copout and pisspoor design. If a character threatens my life and i can stop him from doing something I dont' want him to do, then I should be able to. Have a plausible thing happen which prevents me from stopping him from fleeing  Kirkwall to raise his army, as oppposed to him saying he wont' fight me here and walking away slowly after threatening me and me wanting to attack him.  Ugh.

Everytime I think about the game too hard I find another FAIL.  I regret getting this game. Laidlaw needs to go do another project and leave DA alone.

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 16 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

There should also have been an option to kill Sebastian. By far the most pansy character in the game - and Hawke lets him go to supposedly return with an army? Stupid.

And you really think he's going to return with an army as opposed to sitting in the Starkhaven Chantry posting wanted notes for Anders for the next 10 years?

Actually ... no. I think that's exactly what he is going to do.

[wowpwnslol]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

There should also have been an option to kill Sebastian. By far the most pansy character in the game - and Hawke lets him go to supposedly return with an army? Stupid.

Sebastien  says something like "I won't fight you here, my death would prove nothing" or something which is a major copout and pisspoor design. If a character threatens my life and i can stop him from doing something I dont' want him to do, then I should be able to. Have a plausible thing happen which prevents me from stopping him from fleeing  Kirkwall to raise his army, as oppposed to him saying he wont' fight me here and walking away slowly after threatening me and me wanting to attack him.  Ugh.

Everytime I think about the game too hard I find another FAIL.  I regret getting this game. Laidlaw needs to go do another project and leave DA alone.

Great Post.

[uanime5]

I'd have liked a neutral option where Hawke says 'screw you guys I'm going home', then leaves. The Seeker then accuses Varric of making this up but Varric replies that Hawke actually didn't fight in the major battle at the gallows but was at home trying to get the blood stains out of his armour. The game then ends the same way.

In my opinion the way the game ended was poor. No matter who you side with you have to fight the same bosses and the ending is exactly the same. What's worse is that who you side with is chosen at the very end, irrespective of every decision you made up to this point.

I can't help but think that they originally planed to have a linear campaign where you opposed Meridith but that they decided to add the option to side with the Templars very late in development. This would explain why there isn't an achievement for defeating Orsino.

[IanPolaris]

uanime5 wrote...

I can't help but think that they originally planed to have a linear campaign where you opposed Meridith but that they decided to add the option to side with the Templars very late in development. This would explain why there isn't an achievement for defeating Orsino.

Agreed and they didn't even put much thought into that.  If they had, they would have added a "First Enchanter" Acheivement for very minimal extra coding or at least something that differentiated a Templar-Siding mage from a Templar-siding non-mage, because there is no way in the Maker's name that the Templars would permit ANY mage to take a political title no matter how respected or honored the mage.

-Polaris