141 réponses à ce sujet

[ralx22]

I love how quick the powers recharge in ME 2 but at the same time I miss how you could use multiple abilities, one right after the other like in ME 1, and then an idea struck me. How about keeping the the low cooldowns of ME 2 while allowing  some of flexibilty of ME 1. Now some of you may think this might be a bit overpowered but that is where my idea of a Global Cumuative Cooldown System (or GCC for short) comes into play.

With the current system implemented in ME 2, once you use a power you're locked out from using your other abilities for a set amount of time
Under the GCC system, you would still have the low cooldown of powers in ME 2 but have the ability to use your other available powers right after but at a cost.

Under the GCC SYSTEM for example, as a vanguard you can use charge and wait 6 seconds for its cooldown but then you decide you want to use pull right after, this would add onto the global rehcarge and now you're waiting 9 seconds for both powers to cooldown but still have the choice to use your other remaining available powers; which again if you decide to use  would futher add onto the global cooldown. Once that global cooldown resets, all the powers that you used would become available again.



Under the current ME 2 Global cooldown:   CHARGE--->6 seconds-->PULL-->3 seconds-->Shockwave-->6 seconds-->  and so and so forth..etc


Under the Suggested GCC System for ME 3:     Charge-->Pull-->Shockwave-->15 seconds--> all 3 powers become available again

It's essentially the ME 2 system but with a extra dynamic to it.

To eleborate a bit further, if use a power such as charge and you decide to use another power like pull with 1 second left before charge cooldowns, the cooldown of pull would be added to that remaining  1 second increasing the GCC to 4 seconds.

Im not the best typer:huh:, so if something isn't clear please let me know. Input is gladly welcomed.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[mcsupersport]

The problem with this is it would really hurt the power dependent classes, in Engineer and Adept plus a few caster Sentinels. The cooldowns for Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Soldier would be mostly unaffected because they have more a signature power related to their weapons and thus who cares most of the time about using other powers when you primary rules, especially the Soldier. The Soldier would become even more powerful in relation to other classes in any sustained battle. The adept and Engineer would all become weaker the longer the battle raged, because they are all about stacking powers and you would be slowly removing their use in groups most used. Otherwise Singularity, pull then warp and you have to wait really long time to use your bread and butter powers where a Vanguard would just do what it already does Charge, charge, and charge, because you want nothing to interfere with the ability to charge because it is so good for what it does.

[Kronner]

As long as I am not forced to use powers I don't like, I don't really care tbh.

[ralx22]

mcsupersport wrote...

The problem with this is it would really hurt the power dependent classes, in Engineer and Adept plus a few caster Sentinels. The cooldowns for Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Soldier would be mostly unaffected because they have more a signature power related to their weapons and thus who cares most of the time about using other powers when you primary rules, especially the Soldier. The Soldier would become even more powerful in relation to other classes in any sustained battle. The adept and Engineer would all become weaker the longer the battle raged, because they are all about stacking powers and you would be slowly removing their use in groups most used. Otherwise Singularity, pull then warp and you have to wait really long time to use your bread and butter powers where a Vanguard would just do what it already does Charge, charge, and charge, because you want nothing to interfere with the ability to charge because it is so good for what it does.

But its exactly like the current system use in ME 2 now accept with the added benefit of using powers in quick succesion but at a cost. If all a vangaurd wants to do is charge, charge, and charge some more like it is currently, they can still do that but they have the added option of using another abilty but at the cost if an in increase in cooldown. Engineers and Adepts would still work the same like they do in ME2 if they show restraint, but this system gives them the an addtional option.

For example: as an adept you can still use singularity and then wait for the 4.5 cooldown to use warp to cause the explosion, but if you decide to want to use them is quick succesion of each other, you can but at the cost of the increased combined cooldown.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[ralx22]

Kronner wrote...

As long as I am not forced to use powers I don't like, I don't really care tbh.

You will still have the option to  use whatever power you like  just like it is currently in ME2.
This system is meant to be compromise between the ME 1 and ME2  cooldown systems.

[Relix28]

I think I like this idea. It's basically the same ME2 global cooldown system with more strategical options. It sounds good in theory.

I think the question we should be asking is how it would work out in actual combat situations. Imo, it would trivialize some of the lesser or shorter fights, because of the sheer number of damage you could dish out in short succession via your powers, but it would balance itself out in longer fights with tougher enemies.
I think it could definitelly add a layer of depth to the game in the long run.

[lazuli]

It seems like spamming powers would lead to a lot of downtime. I don't think the global cooldown system is perfect, but I'm not sure this is the answer. How would you handle this in the UI, especially for xbox players?

I think I'd prefer the global cooldown system, just with more options for lowering it and manipulating it. The (unintended) side effect of Tech Armor is a good example of what I mean. Imagine how appealing a squadmate could be if he or she had a power that reset everyone's cooldowns but his/her own.

[ralx22]

lazuli wrote...

It seems like spamming powers would lead to a lot of downtime. I don't think the global cooldown system is perfect, but I'm not sure this is the answer. How would you handle this in the UI, especially for xbox players?

I think I'd prefer the global cooldown system, just with more options for lowering it and manipulating it. The (unintended) side effect of Tech Armor is a good example of what I mean. Imagine how appealing a squadmate could be if he or she had a power that reset everyone's cooldowns but his/her own.

Spamming powers would be a problem if you don't show restraint, and even then the coolddown wouldn't be that long especially compared to the cooldowns of ME 1. Now showing it in the ui  for pc players itsn't really a problem considering that they have a power bar in the upper left corner showing them when powers are available for use again. In regards to the xbox ui, it would be the same as it is now with the power recharge reticule, only thing that would change is that it would increase as you usepowers in quick succesion of each other, but the player would still know their  powers have recharged when it combines. The idea of a squadmates power reseting your powers does sound appealing, its just  the GCC system allows the player to not be so relaint on a squadmate if   for example you decide you don't want to bring that  partucular member along with you on a mission.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[RGFrog]

So a pull warp could be executed with a combo cooldown of 9 seconds (or less with -cd bonuses). Which would allow for a faster one/two combo. Unnecessary since I can do that as an adept with just a slight pause thanks to pulls quick cd.

I can understand the allure, though. You could warp bomb as effectively as using two squadmates.

However, I don't like two things. First, combined cooldowns would have me behind cover a lot. Second, this combined cooldown, as others have commented, would only affect casters. Those that use casts to support weapons use wouldn't really be affected at all.

Perhaps the way to balance that out would be a global cooldown modifier. Use two casts together and the global cooldown is reduced by 50%. 3 and it's reduced by only 25% of the total. Spam them all and you have to wait the full combined cooldown period.

This would allow for combos and omg moments without too much penalty compared to a weapon-centric class. And discourage an all out cast fest (which may also have it's uses that justify the penalty).

[Bozorgmehr]

This would cause all sorts of balance issues imo.

It would make certain squadmates insanely powerful (Miranda having the option to Overload a couple shields and Slam-Warpbomb them almost simultaneously ... - poor Grunt can only fire one of his pathetic CSs). Add Shep and a second squadmate and you can basically wipe out all enemies in a second or two.

It would break to great flow ME2 has when it comes to the fragile balance between using powers and shooting your weapons (ME tries to be a shooter-rpg hybrid after all). In ME1 (and I also think this will be a consequence of your system), you use powers first (to disable the enemy/make yourself indestructible) and then shoot (to kill enemies) - ME1 combat has two components; 1) use powers (rpg), 2) shoot and kill (shooter).

In ME2 these two components are intergrated (not separated like it is with ME1's combat system); you shoot and use a power, shoot and use a power, etc plus you can use both powers and weapons to either strip defenses, crowd control the enemy, and/or kill enemies. This is a much better rpg-shooter system imo; it ain't perfect and it should be improved - but it's the lesser evil.

[ralx22]

RGFrog wrote...

So a pull warp could be executed with a combo cooldown of 9 seconds (or less with -cd bonuses). Which would allow for a faster one/two combo. Unnecessary since I can do that as an adept with just a slight pause thanks to pulls quick cd.

• True, but as you said there is a "pause" in between doing  so, but during that slight pause enemies might overwhelm you with fire power whick could force you to retreat or even be killed. With the GCC you can do that quick one-two punch saving in you that emergency sitaution where you might possibly be killed.
  

I can understand the allure, though. You could warp bomb as effectively as using two squadmates.

• This is true as well, but the GCC system would make it so that you aren't completey relaint on your  sqaudmatesto perform such combos.
  

However, I don't like two things. First, combined cooldowns would have me behind cover a lot. Second, this combined cooldown, as others have commented, would only affect casters. Those that use casts to support weapons use wouldn't really be affected at all.

• Well thats where restraint comes in, you as the  player  have to decide whetther you want to use powers to in quick succession to take care of serious threat but at the cost of increased downtime.

Perhaps the way to balance that out would be a global cooldown modifier. Use two casts together and the global cooldown is reduced by 50%. 3 and it's reduced by only 25% of the total. Spam them all and you have to wait the full combined cooldown period.

This would allow for combos and omg moments without too much penalty compared to a weapon-centric class. And discourage an all out cast fest (which may also have it's uses that justify the penalty).[

• This would be a great addtion to GCC system, I agree fully.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[Praetor Knight]

For now, I'm inclined to stick with ME2's cool down mechanics and just add powers and new power evolutions to the system that has proven to work well enough and kick some ****

But, considering that powers will have more branching in ME3 (from what I've read about the GI article on the ME forums, I haven't read it myself yet), maybe this could workout to benefit the player's power casting, especially if there are going to be more solo sections. I'm also thinking that squadmates should stay with ME2's cool down mechanics regardless in ME3 (especially if they get more powers themselves at their disposal).

The key for me will be how dynamic ME3 combat will be, and from what I understand, with bigger maps/ levels and less cover, we'll face more challenges , so any advantage is welcome IMHO.

[mcsupersport]

The casters would face a burst damage, then hug a wall for a long time, then burst damage again. The Shooter classes would be unaffected, and if you built waves to withstand the burst damage, the it might overwhelm the shooters as well, effecting balance. You have the ability to fire singularity(6 sec), pull(3 sec), throw(3 sec) then warp(6 sec) plus shockwave(6 sec) and you take out a bunch of the enemies.....but you have to wait 24 seconds to use any powers again. The reason you used shockwave was because your pull power was on 18 seconds of cooldown and so why not, you don't have anything else to do in that time to be able to handle the charging enemies. Now you play a little bit smarter, in you singularity(6 seconds), wait, pull forget them to float over an abyss and die, (3 second wait instead of 9 seconds) pull again(3 seconds) and throw (3 seconds)and pull(3 seconds) again and warp(6 seconds), and let your companion warp the final in the singularity, allowing a much more even power usage. So in the same time you pulled once, throw once, singularity once, warp once, and shockwave once, I managed to singularity once, pull three times warp once and throw once, in a constant barrage that I can mix with teammates to really do some damage. That is six power uses in the time your system gives me 5, and it is more sustained and tactical to my mind with the current system.

[termokanden]

mcsupersport wrote...

The casters would face a burst damage, then hug a wall for a long time, then burst damage again.

 
This is exactly what concerns me about the idea and why I would prefer the old system. You'd be a fool not to go for super combos I guess, but then you get hit by the giant cooldown of doom. There'd be nicer flow to just following the old system.

[Bozorgmehr]

mcsupersport wrote...

The casters would face a burst damage, then hug a wall for a long time, then burst damage again. The Shooter classes would be unaffected, and if you built waves to withstand the burst damage, the it might overwhelm the shooters as well, effecting balance. You have the ability to fire singularity(6 sec), pull(3 sec), throw(3 sec) then warp(6 sec) plus shockwave(6 sec) and you take out a bunch of the enemies.....but you have to wait 24 seconds to use any powers again. The reason you used shockwave was because your pull power was on 18 seconds of cooldown and so why not, you don't have anything else to do in that time to be able to handle the charging enemies. Now you play a little bit smarter, in you singularity(6 seconds), wait, pull forget them to float over an abyss and die, (3 second wait instead of 9 seconds) pull again(3 seconds) and throw (3 seconds)and pull(3 seconds) again and warp(6 seconds), and let your companion warp the final in the singularity, allowing a much more even power usage. So in the same time you pulled once, throw once, singularity once, warp once, and shockwave once, I managed to singularity once, pull three times warp once and throw once, in a constant barrage that I can mix with teammates to really do some damage. That is six power uses in the time your system gives me 5, and it is more sustained and tactical to my mind with the current system.

Yeah, that's my issue too. It would be like ME1 where you can one-shot CC all enemies before they have any chance to fight back - huge cooldown forces you to shoot for a long time before powers become available again. ME2 has a more fluent system and squadmates allow near instant power-combos as it is.

[ralx22]

termokanden wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

The casters would face a burst damage, then hug a wall for a long time, then burst damage again.

 
This is exactly what concerns me about the idea and why I would prefer the old system. You'd be a fool not to go for super combos I guess, but then you get hit by the giant cooldown of doom. There'd be nicer flow to just following the old system.

But this system is the exact same system as as the one currently in ME2 but with an added "option". I stress the word option because you as player have to decide whether or not you want to burst and suffer the long cooldown and or just use a power  under your own discretion depending on the situation.High burst but long cooldown or indivdual use of power and less time behind cover.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 10:43 .

[ralx22]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


Yeah, that's my issue too. It would be like ME1 where you can one-shot CC all enemies before they have any chance to fight back - huge cooldown forces you to shoot for a long time before powers become available again. ME2 has a more fluent system and squadmates allow near instant power-combos as it is.

Well i guess your right about the balance issue that would occur but ultimately, the idea that once you use a power it completely locks the use of other abilities for a set amount of time is somewhat of a bother . The devs could buff enemies to some extent but i guess that would need more time for deliberation.

Modifié par ralx22, 15 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[termokanden]

Yeah I see that, and I suppose you could just ignore the option. But it makes sense that you'd probably go for the quick combos and then get in cover for a longer time with this system.

Having that option might be a good thing anyway. I don't really know.

[Bozorgmehr]

ralx22 wrote...

Well i guess your right about the balance issue that would occur but ultimately, the idea that once you use a power it completely locks the use of other abilities for a set amount of time a somewhat of a bother . The devs could buff enemies to me extent but i guess that would need more time for deliberation.

Your idea does try to address one of the major flaws of ME2's power usage system, that's a good thing. And I too would love to have my Vanguard Charge a group of enemies and use some biotic powers soon after making contact - that would be awesome and make Vanguards a true hybrid (biotic) class - but your proposal has other implications too; it would make casters too powerful (and cast, cast, cast, shoot, shoot, shoot). Casters could use a little buff though - thank goodness they are allowed to carry decent weaponry in ME3

[termokanden]

Do casters need or buff or do others need a nerf? I'm very serious when I say this. Seems to me that casters are actually pretty well-balanced (engineers and adepts at least) and have to focus on multiple powers to get the job done well.

I still see it as a flaw that a soldier for example has such an easy time just using one power. No you don't HAVE to play a soldier like that, but it works too well.

I'm not entirely convinced that casters need a buff in any case. Well there should be three biotic upgrades before Horizon, but that's about it

[kstarler]

I'm not a fan of the idea, but just to brainstorm, have folks considered a global cool down/independent cool down hybrid system? What about a set global cool down after using a power (say 3.0 seconds that can be reduced through upgrades) when no power can be used, but then having a longer individual cool down for more powerful abilities. That way, a Vanguard could charge, wait 3.0 seconds, Pull/Shockwave, wait 3.0 more seconds, and Charge again (assuming a 6.0 second charge cool down). Truth be told, I'd rather not have any real change to the cool down system as I think it works fine as is, but I do like a good spitballing session.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maybe blocking the use of the same power twice could improve the system. It would stop spamming one power because you'll need to use a different power first to 'unlock' the other. A Vanguard can Charge, but has to use one of its other abilities (Pull, Shockwave), before they can Charge again. Or a penalty which increase cooldown of the last power used hence the Vanguard who has used Charge can use all other abilities 'normally' but cannot use Charge (on double cooldown though using Pull would reset timer). Just thinking here

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 15 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[kstarler]

Boz, I gotta say it. In the words of my good friend, Michael Bluth, "What? No. No. No. No no no." Why not just increase the cool down to 9.0 seconds in that case?

[ralx22]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Maybe blocking the use of the same power twice could improve the system. It would stop spamming one power because you'll need to use a different power first to 'unlock' the other. A Vanguard can Charge, but has to use one of its other abilities (Pull, Shockwave), before they can Charge again. Or a penalty which increase cooldown of the last power used hence the Vanguard who has used Charge can use all other abilities 'normally' but cannot use Charge (on double cooldown though using Pull would reset timer). Just thinking here

But this leads to the problem mention by kronner about having to use a power u might not want to use inorder to use another one. If you use charge but want to use it again afterwards, you'll have to wait for the full 6 seconds(base cooldown), which is how it is now in ME 2.  Under GCC you can do same thing but if you decide to use another available power, it cumulative adds onto the previous remaining cooldown. Now adding a penelty is an interesting suggestion but again, such as some has mention you end up spending even more time in cover.

All the input has been great so far and highyly aprreciated it definitely shows that this system needs more deliberation.

More ideas are gladly welcomed.

[JimL68]

The global cooldown actually makes sense from a lore standpoint, especially if you have read the Mass Effect novels. A biotic needs a certain amount of concentration to use an ability. What actually doesn't make sense is that a Sentinel, for example, has one cooldown for both tech and biotic powers even though they use separate mechanisms. I can see an omni-tool needing to refill its capacitors or whatever and I can see a biotic needing to regather whatever it is they gather but why are both sets of powers under one cooldown for a character that can use both?