141 réponses à ce sujet

[Relix28]

How about limiting the number of casts to just two at the time? I mean like charge an enemy -> shottgun to the face -> use pull/shockwave/reave on another enemy in a distance before charge cools down. After that you are basically stuck with the remaining charge and pull/shockwave/reave cooldown and cannot cast another power until the whole thing cools down. It's basically what ralx sugested, but with a slight limitation. 
I think the problem with global cooldown in ME2 was just that, it was global and all your powers were unavailable for a duration of your previous cooldown. After you charged an enemy or a group of enemies and took them out, there was no reason NOT TO charge again once it cooled down. Now if you could cast two powers one after another, not limited by global cooldown, there would definitelly be an incentive for players to use it, wich could result in less repetitive gameplay and more variety in tactics.

An example that comes to mind.

ME2 Global Cooldown Style: Charge a group of two, take them out. Use Garrus' area overload on the nex group, charge, take them out. Repeat x10 until all are dead.

GCC Style: Charge a group of two, take them out. Use Garrus' Area Overload on the next group, charge one, pull field the rest, use Thane for Warp bombing.
Or
Use Garrus' area overload on the first group, area reave them, then immediatly charge the next group and take them out, while still having the benefit of reave's health regen.

And I don't think that the combined cooldown of just two powers would be an issue. Imo it would add a nice incentive to try different tactics that are just as effective as constant charge/tech armor/adrenaline rush spam.

Just my two cents.

 

Modifié par Relix28, 16 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[mcsupersport]

The only real change that would make a huge difference in casters is put in two cooldowns, one for the Signature power and the other for all others. This would encourage other power uses, and still sort of balance the times and classes. It would allow the Soldier to pop AR and shoot a Concussive shot or Infiltrators to cloak and hit with an incendiary blast, engineers pop a drone and well with a 3 second base that almost doesn't count... ;D

[Relix28]

That's basically what I said minus the penalty. It could would make the game even more dynamic and fluid, but there would have to be compensations somewhere else then, just to make sure some things are not completely OP.

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

As long as I am not forced to use powers I don't like, I don't really care tbh.

i honestly dont know how much unfound pent up anger i have for investing 5 points into armor as an ME1 adept, or putting three points into shockwave as a vangaurd in ME2. im afraid of my skill point distrebution subconcious.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 16 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[aDuck]

I would like to see cooldowns based on types: Tech and Biotic. When using, say incinerate, you would not be able to use any tech powers for a certain time. However, you can still use push or shockwave etc, because they work on completely different systems.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

What if this cumulative cooldown was restricted to pure-caster Sheppard only? Then caster squadmates won't be overpowered, and Adept / Engineer will have a few more special tactics available that no one else can get?

aDuck wrote...

I would like to see cooldowns based on types: Tech and Biotic. When using, say incinerate, you would not be able to use any tech powers for a certain time. However, you can still use push or shockwave etc, because they work on completely different systems.

^Neither mechanic is mutually exclusive to the other. It could be possible to have both...

If balance is an issue, the ability to split tech / biotic cooldowns can be made into a Sentinel-only ability, which wouldn't interfere with the Adept / Engineer's 'alpha-strike' ability, while preventing combat classes from benefitting too much from having both strong weapon and power combos.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 16 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

Boz, I gotta say it. In the words of my good friend, Michael Bluth, "What? No. No. No. No no no." Why not just increase the cool down to 9.0 seconds in that case?

Yeah, but then Vanguards will still be Charge-bots; it will make Charge less powerful (which is good imo) but there's still harldy any room for Vanguards to use their biotic powers. I want them to do both but without abandoning the global cd system, increasing Charge's cd doesn't really help with that.

ralx22 wrote...

But this leads to the problem mention by kronner about having to use a power u might not want to use inorder to use another one. If you use charge but want to use it again afterward, you'll have to wait for the full 6 seconds(base cooldown), which is how it is now in ME 2. Under GCC you can do same thing but if you decide to use another available power, it cumulative adds onto the previous remaining cooldown. Now adding a penalty is an interesting suggestion but again, such as some has mention you end up spending even more time in cover.

Yes and No, if Kronner wants to Charge only - he can, but he's gimping himself coz he could use other powers between Charges without lowering the number of times Charge is available. I also consider Kronner's point "I don't want to use powers I don't like" lame. Of course players should have the freedom to do as they please; but to argue one will only use the uber-power aka I-WIN button indefinitely makes it pointless to give Vanguards other powers. In ME2 Vanguards are complete when they have Charge and a shottie (you start the game like this) which is bad; Charge and shotguns are great, but too little for a biotic/combat class that can use 6 powers.

Obviously something must be done with the power layout; Pull and Shockwave are not enough; other biotic and/or combat powers have to be added to the Vanguard's arsenal to give them viable options between Charges. The cooldown system has to be re-balanced too, so, for example, a Vanguard Charges a group of enemies, the (charged) target will die - at which point ~2 seconds have past - an other powers should (roughly) become available at this point, but Charge cannot be used - it requires an extra X seconds before it will be available again.

Again, my point and aim here is to discourage / block spamming. Another example is Barrier (or TA). A great (bonus) power but due to its huge cooldown not very interesting (activating it means you cannot use powers for a long time = bad); my proposal will have all other powers available shortly after activation - so the Barrier Adept can still cast his/her biotic powers (except Barrier); but without the option to go tanking (this would allow Assault Sentinels to go tanking, but only for a short time - no more invincibility through spamming TA) - that would be great imo.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yes and No, if Kronner wants to Charge only - he can, but he's gimping himself coz he could use other powers between Charges without lowering the number of times Charge is available.

Maybe I want to Charge almost all the time, with occasional Slam or something? Why should that
style nerf my Vanguard? Why should I adapt to YOUR view of what Vanguard should be? That's just stupid and does not make sense. Maybe I WANT the Vanguard to be one dimensional shotgun Charging madman. Consider that.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I also consider Kronner's point "I don't want to use powers I don't like" lame. Of course players should have the freedom to do as they please; but to argue one will only use the uber-power aka I-WIN button indefinitely makes it pointless to give Vanguards other powers.

Charge is hardly I win button, it is one of the very few powers in the game that put you in a dangerous position, and you actually have to be quick to survive. I don't like sitting in cover and spamming Pull, Shockwave or something. Again, why should I play the way YOU want me to? If I wanted caster, I'd play Adept, I don't, so I play Vanguard. I do not want it to be nerfed Soldier and nerfed Adept in one package.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
In ME2 Vanguards are complete when they have Charge and a shottie (you start the game like this) which is bad; Charge and shotguns are great, but too little for a biotic/combat class that can use 6 powers.

Well, maybe I do NOT want to play half Soldier half Adept class?

What's to stop you from using Pull or Shockwave. You CAN do it. No one forces you to use Charge only.

Your argument is actually pretty lame.

Modifié par Kronner, 16 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Maybe I want to Charge almost all the time, with occasional Slam or something? Why should that
style nerf my Vanguard? Why should I adapt to YOUR view of what Vanguard should be? That's just stupid and does not make sense. Maybe I WANT the Vanguard to be one dimensional shotgun Charging madman. Consider that.

If you want that, why bother with anything else except Charge?

I like Charge, but I think it's stupid one power can get you through the game on Insanity by spamming it. No tactics required, no teamwork, no real challenge, nothing except Charge.

Charge is hardly I win button, it is one of the very few powers in the game that put you in a dangerous position, and you actually have to be quick to survive. I don't like sitting in cover and spamming Pull, Shockwave or something. Again, why should I play the way YOU want me to? If I wanted caster, I'd play Adept, I don't, so I play Vanguard. I do not want it to be nerfed Soldier and nerfed Adept in one package.

Charge is an I-WIN button; with some knowledge of game-mechanics you can only be killed by a (charge) bug or stunlock (when you're unlucky). I would not have minded if this was possible on Veteran, but to cruise through Insanity like this is not good.

How would it 'nerf' the Vanguard? Can you explain that? I don't want to ruin Charge, I want to add something to give Vanguards a little more flavor; or are you saying you would not use other powers when they don't affect ME2's Charge fest at all? What about Slam, I believe you love it on your Vanguard - does it ruin your experience when you're using Slam every now and then? I think it makes the Vanguard not only a better class, but also more fun to play.

Well, maybe I do NOT want to play half Soldier half Adept class?

What's to stop you from using Pull or Shockwave. You CAN do it. No one forces you to use Charge only. [u][b]

What do Soldiers and Adepts have to do with this? I think you are over-reacting Kronner - I don't want the berserk Vanguard to go - I only want them to be capable of more than Charge only. I've also said Pull and Shockwave are not enough. Are you seriously suggesting you would hate having the option to Charge some goons and after killing the first you can fire a Carnage Shot at another?

Again; please explain why ADDING equals nerfing/gimping or whatever - that makes no sense at all.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

If you want that, why bother with anything else except Charge?

I like Charge, but I think it's stupid one power can get you through the game on Insanity by spamming it. No tactics required, no teamwork, no real challenge, nothing except Charge.

Why is it stupid?
No tactics?
No challenge?
Are you kidding me? Charge is extremely tactical power.

Overload + Singularity/Pull + Warp/Throw is not really complex either. It is no different than Charge, it is only a different style, why would I want THIS when I play Vanguard (example only).

Also, we should realize that both of us think about Insanity mode. Look at Normal or something, Pull and Shockwave are definitely viable choices besides Charge. Actually, they might be even better.
Reave also happens to be quite effective on Insanity, I think that Sabresandiego used it as much as Charge, and he had great results too.

Charge is an I-WIN button; with some knowledge of game-mechanics you can only be killed by a (charge) bug or stunlock (when you're unlucky). I would not have minded if this was possible on Veteran, but to cruise through Insanity like this is not good.

With some knowledge?
OK, in that case, with some knowledge you can melee 99% opponents to death. You can spam Singularity and still beat the game. What are you talking about here? It's not like Charge wins it for you, you gotta do stuff after you Charge too. Charge is very powerful when used correctly, but then again, all other signature powers are like that.
IMHO it is good that classes are so different in ME2.

How would it 'nerf' the Vanguard? Can you explain that? I don't want to ruin Charge, I want to add something to give Vanguards a little more flavor; or are you saying you would not use other powers when they don't affect ME2's Charge fest at all? What about Slam, I believe you love it on your Vanguard - does it ruin your experience when you're using Slam every now and then? I think it makes the Vanguard not only a better class, but also more fun to play.

You said I would gimp myself if I used only Charge - read your previous post.

I don't mind using other powers, BUT I'd hate it if I was forced to use other powers. If there was a separate cooldown, something would HAVE TO be nerfed (your abilities) or beefed up (enemy damage, defense). How is that better than the current system? All it does is that it forces you to play in a certain way, or be severely gimped otherwise.

What do Soldiers and Adepts have to do with this? I think you are over-reacting Kronner - I don't want the berserk Vanguard to go - I only want them to be capable of more than Charge only. I've also said Pull and Shockwave are not enough. Are you seriously suggesting you would hate having the option to Charge some goons and after killing the first you can fire a Carnage Shot at another?

Again; please explain why ADDING equals nerfing/gimping or whatever - that makes no sense at all.

They are capable of doing that already, last time I checked.
Once again, with your system, something would have to be changed, but in any case, your powers would be less effective (either due to longer cooldown or beefed up enemies).

Adding powers is fine, but without the global cooldown, something has to be made less effective.

And by the way, I apologize if my previous post sounded too harsh or over-reactionary

Modifié par Kronner, 16 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Why is it stupid?
No tactics?
No challenge?
Are you kidding me? Charge is extremely tactical power.

Overload + Singularity/Pull + Warp/Throw is not really complex either. It is no different than Charge, it is only a different style, why would I want THIS when I play Vanguard (example only).

Using 3 powers (including squadmates) and without the certainty you'll survive when your out in the open (most likely get you killed) isn't rocket science, but it requires more than using one ability. Charge's tactics are: charge the first fool in sight, kill him, kill someone else who might be nearby, target another fool, rinse and repeat (= one power only, no squadmates/teamwork > is less tactical imo).

With some knowledge?
OK, in that case, with some knowledge you can melee 99% opponents to death. You can spam Singularity and still beat the game. What are you talking about here?

There's a clear difference between immunity and the option to play the game while ignoring most abilities. Spamming Singularity does not allow you to hang around without dying (like Charge). I would have less issues if you needed your squadmate powers to allow ME2 Charging (but you don't need squadmates at all - Charge alone is powerful enough).

You said I would gimp myself if I used only Charge - read your previous post.
I don't mind using other powers, BUT I'd hate it if I was forced to use other powers. If there was a separate cooldown, something would HAVE TO be nerfed (your abilities) or beefed up (enemy damage, defense). How is that better than the current system? All it does is that it forces you to play in a certain way, or be severely gimped otherwise.

Yes, you gimp yourself but I don't think you understand my point:

ME2 system: You Charge >>>>>>>>>>>> Charge >>>>>>>>>>> Charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> Charge

My System :  You Charge >>> power  >>> Charge >>> power >>> Charge >>> etc

note: by power I mean everything except Charge.

This does not change a thing - you can play like you always do (and ignore the option to use other abilities if Charge is all that matters to you) - but it also allows the use of other powers (Pull, Throw, Slam, Reave, combat powers etc between charges). It's win win - not gimping.

They are capable of doing that already, last time I checked.
Once again, with your system, something would have to be changed, but in any case, your powers would be less effective (either due to longer cooldown or beefed up enemies).
Adding powers is fine, but without the global cooldown, something has to give.

If you mean ME2 Vanguards can be played like gimped Adepts, then yes they can be just that, but I think we agree that's not a 'cool' option. Adding powers to the current system is pointless when they're not equally powerful/useful compared to Charge. Which would mean Charge has to be gimped (which destroys it) or the other powers need to be insanely powerful (like Charge) - neither option looks interesting to me.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Using 3 powers (including squadmates) and without the certainty you'll survive when your out in the open (most likely get you killed) isn't rocket science, but it requires more than using one ability. Charge's tactics are: charge the first fool in sight, kill him, kill someone else who might be nearby, target another fool, rinse and repeat (= one power only, no squadmates/teamwork > is less tactical imo).

Why would you be in the open? You can be in the cover, all the time. So what if it requires you to press 2 extra buttons. Big deal. It is NO different when it comes to strategy. It is simply a different style.

If using Charge was so easy, why have people been b***ing and whining about it? Why do people think biotics are gimped in ME2? You know it is not the case. They just don't understand it, so there is a learning curve. And again, gimping Charge* just so that it is possible to use Pull between Charges is fraking ridiculous, to me.
*this is a must in your system one way or the other

There's a clear difference between immunity and the option to play the game while ignoring most abilities. Spamming Singularity does not allow you to hang around without dying (like Charge). I would have less issues if you needed your squadmate powers to allow ME2 Charging (but you don't need squadmates at all - Charge alone is powerful enough).

Singularity DOES allow you to just spam it, shoot the poor bastard and make it go boom. I know that for sure, I did such playthrough a long time ago. And that was without GPS or Mattock.
Is that kinda boring? Yeah. Does it work flawlessly and with no risk connected to it? You bet.

Yes, you gimp yourself but I don't think you understand my point:

ME2 system: You Charge >>>>>>>>>>>> Charge >>>>>>>>>>> Charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> Charge

My System :  You Charge >>> power  >>> Charge >>> power >>> Charge >>> etc

note: by power I mean everything except Charge.

This does not change a thing - you can play like you always do (and ignore the option to use other abilities if Charge is all that matters to you) - but it also allows the use of other powers (Pull, Throw, Slam, Reave, combat powers etc between charges). It's win win - not gimping.

Oh, I perfectly understood what you mean - and I have posted why I think it sucks. Using two gimped powers is not cool. And yes, they must be gimped with your system*, otherwise the game becomes a laughable kite shooter ala ME1. Either way, it sucks.

*Why? Because Charge >>> Barrier >>> Charge would be an invincible combo (example only)

If you mean ME2 Vanguards can be played like gimped Adepts, then yes they can be just that, but I think we agree that's not a 'cool' option. Adding powers to the current system is pointless when they're not equally powerful/useful compared to Charge. Which would mean Charge has to be gimped (which destroys it) or the other powers need to be insanely powerful (like Charge) - neither option looks interesting to me.

Again, you consider insanity ONLY. As I posted earlier, on Normal (example) Pull or Shockwave are arguably more powerful than Charge.

And again, you determine what is cool and what is not, I simply disagree with your definition. Simple as that.

Modifié par Kronner, 16 avril 2011 - 11:58 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Why would you be in the open? You can be in the cover, all the time.

If using Charge was so easy, why have people been b***ing and whining about it? Why do people think biotics are gimped in ME2? You know it is not the case. They just don't understand it, so there is a learning curve. And again, gimping Charge* just so that it is possible to use Pull between Charges is fraking ridiculous, to me.
*this is a must in your system one way or the other

You have not explained why it 'gimps' Charge - it doesn't change a thing; are you saying Charge is gimped the way it is now?

Charge's "learning curve" comes down to the simple "use it whenever available and you're good" principle. Adepts have to use multiple powers and squadmates to get anywhere near the Vanguard (in terms of speed and killing power) - that's quite a difference AND they remain vulnerable whenever they leave cover (something Vanguard don't have to worry about at all).

If you think using something else beside Charge is ridiculous - don't use those powers, no one is forcing you.

Singularity DOES allow you to just spam it, shoot the poor bastard and make it go boom. I know that for sure, I did such playthrough a long time ago. And that was without GPS or Mattock.
Is that kinda boring? Yeah. Does it work flawlessly and with no risk connected to it? You bet.

Behind cover yes, outside of cover you're death. Of course Adept should be weaker than Vanguards, but the option to play a cover-based TPS, on the hardest difficulty, without squadmates, without the need to look where to go next - using one ability alone. That's a bit simplistic imo.

Oh, I perfectly understood what you mean - and I have posted why I think it sucks. Using two gimped powers is not cool. And yes, they must be gimped with your system, otherwise the game becomes a laughable kite shooter ala ME1. Either way, it sucks.

You did not understand everything - coz I have said other powers have to be added to make it worthwhile to use em. How this would result in ME1 combat is beyond my understanding. ME2 Vanguard are laughable (yet cool) kite shooters - Charge basically is ME1 immunity + teleport into pointblank shotgun range.

Again, you consider insanity ONLY. And again, you determine what is cool and what is not, I simply disagree with your definition. Simple as that.

I don't determine what's cool and neither do you - all we do is give our opinion.

And yes, I do take Insanity as the benchmark. The hardest difficulty should require more than using only a fraction of ME's available means to play at full capacity. The option to clear levels at max speed using only one power is poor design.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You have not explained why it 'gimps' Charge - it doesn't change a thing; are you saying Charge is gimped the way it is now?

I said, Charge would have to be gimped, otherwise the game would be laughably easy. See below.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Charge's "learning curve" comes down to the simple "use it whenever available and you're good" principle. Adepts have to use multiple powers and squadmates to get anywhere near the Vanguard (in terms of speed and killing power) - that's quite a difference AND they remain vulnerable whenever they leave cover (something Vanguard don't have to worry about at all).

sarcasm
Adept 101:  <strip defense> + Pull/Singularity + Throw/Warp
Steep learning curve. I am lost. So complex.
/sarcasm

Maybe this is because Adepts are not built to play like Vanguards. Speed is hardly important. It is actually totally irrelevant.
You can't die as an Adept, unless you risk. That is a fact. Vanguard forces you to take the risk.
No difference in complexity of used strategy, only different approach.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
If you think using something else beside Charge is ridiculous - don't use those powers, no one is forcing you.

I never said such a thing. I said I do not want to be forced to use powers I don't like.

Behind cover yes, outside of cover you're death. Of course Adept should be weaker than Vanguards, but the option to play a cover-based TPS, on the hardest difficulty, without squadmates, without the need to look where to go next - using one ability alone. That's a bit simplistic imo.

'Simplistic' is a very subjective term. Adepts are not any more complex. (or any other class for that matter)

You did not understand everything - coz I have said other powers have to be added to make it worthwhile to use em. How this would result in ME1 combat is beyond my understanding. ME2 Vanguard are laughable (yet cool) kite shooters - Charge basically is ME1 immunity + teleport into pointblank shotgun range.

AGAIN, you would add powerful powers that could be used between Charges, and guess what you get? More powerful Vagnuard. What is the point of that? Making the game even easier? Mission accomplished. Bravo.

I won't even comment on this BS.

And yes, I do take Insanity as the benchmark. The hardest difficulty should require more than using only a fraction of ME's available means to play at full capacity. The option to clear levels at max speed using only one power is poor design.

I disagree. It's not just Charge, you know. You gotta be quick, hit your targets and always know where your enemies are. If pressing Charge button was I-WIN button, then I ask again, why did so many people b1tch and moan about its viability? Are they just stupid or is there more to Charge? You decide.

Personally, I don't see how using 3 powers instead of 1 is any different, except for the fact that you have to press more buttons. The game is not about strategy, it is a shooter based on quick reactions. Every class requires different approach, but in the end the result is the same - once you learn your stuff, you dominate no matter what.

And while I absolutely enjoy Insanity, I do realize that only a small minority of players actually play that mode, BioWare is not going to build the game around the hardest difficulty. Too bad, but it's true.

Modifié par Kronner, 16 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

I said, Charge would have to be gimped, otherwise the game would be laughably easy. See below.

It's already very easy. I reckon you've said Charge's cooldown should be increased a little to make it a little less OP. That would add some tactical depth; but Vanguards will still use Charge all the time (not doing so is gimping yourself).

Maybe this is because Adepts are not built to play like Vanguards. Speed is hardly important. It is actually totally irrelevant.
You can't die as an Adept, unless you risk. That is a fact. Vanguard forces you to take the risk.
No difference in complexity of used strategy, only different approach.

A cautious Adept can't die, but they will die when they're taking risks - Vanguard can't die (risk is almost a non-issue). Speed is important; designing one power that makes it (easily) possible to clear levels in (say) 10 minutes; and designing a set of powers who (while using them effectively) results in a 20 minute fight - is not good design or balance.

I don't care that some classes are a bit more powerful, but the difference should be small. Speed and 'tedious' are closely related - combat needs pace to keep it fun. No one likes to camp somewhere and slowly wear down the enemy - that's boring.

'Simplistic' is a very subjective term. Adepts are not any more complex. (or any other class for that matter)

Personally, I don't see how using 3 powers instead of 1 is any different, except for the fact that you have to press more buttons. The game is not about strategy, it is a shooter based on quick reactions. Every class requires different approach, but in the end the result is the same - once you learn your stuff, you dominate no matter what.

To work as a team is more complex than going at it alone; and using 3 powers at the right time is more complex than bashing one button only. It's ain't night and day, but more options increase complexity (just a little bit).

I would also like to point out that there are very few (<90%) ME2 players who don't "know" how to use Charge (that was only an issue during the first days (maybe weeks) after release) whereas most players (>80%) still don't know how to utilize the Adept's biotic powers when enemies use defenses. Does say something about the "complexity", no?

AGAIN, you would add powerful powers that could be used between Charges, and guess what you get? More powerful Vagnuard. What is the point of that? Making the game even easier? Mission accomplished. Bravo.

I don't see why making the Vanguard more powerful would change all that much anyway. They are just as strong with and without extra abilities. I'm more interested in increasing the challenge a little.

Just answer this:

Do you believe the ME2 Vanguard is the end of gaming evolution, i.e. they are perfect the way they are now?

Or do you think there might be ways to keep all the good stuff, but also give the Vanguard powers that occasionally see some action beside Charge (without forcing player to get into cover doing so)?

All I can say is that I'm glad Bioware wasn't acting like a grumpy conservative grandpa while designing ME2's combat system. I'd like to see a similar improvement in ME3. I'm not saying I know how, or that I'm holding the Holy Grail or anything. I simply don't like it that a game like Crysis is a "better" shooter-rpg than ME2. The nano suit's modes allow lots of ways to approach fights; ME2's system doesn't (you need to play a different class to be able to use another "nanosuit mode"). If the guys at Crytec can do it, Bioware can do it too.

[lazuli]

Just to step in for a moment, I would like to point out that both Kronner and Bozorgmehr represent a level of mastery over ME2 that the majority of players have not yet achieved. Saying Vanguards cannot die is ridiculous. You can be good enough at a Vanguard to cheat death in almost every encounter, but there are still moments when enemies can get lucky stagger chains going and then you're toast.

I would argue that the average ME2 player would experience a lot of frustrating deaths when playing a Charge-focused Vanguard on Insanity.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

Just to step in for a moment, I would like to point out that both Kronner and Bozorgmehr represent a level of mastery over ME2 that the majority of players have not yet achieved. Saying Vanguards cannot die is ridiculous. You can be good enough at a Vanguard to cheat death in almost every encounter, but there are still moments when enemies can get lucky stagger chains going and then you're toast.

I would argue that the average ME2 player would experience a lot of frustrating deaths when playing a Charge-focused Vanguard on Insanity.

True, but that's not the main point. Vanguards should be CQC specialists and should have better survivability than Adepts for example. But I never played a shooter game (beside ME and on the hardest difficulty) without the need to get cover.

I'd like Vanguards to be great at Charging, but also have some limitations - they should not be able to Charge everything imo. ME2 Vanguards are basically DA tanks and top tier damage dealers in one. That's a little too much. The need to reduce the number of enemies a little, before Charging in and finish the lot would be a better balance between tanking and damage dealing in my book.

[aDuck]

lazuli wrote...

Just to step in for a moment, I would like to point out that both Kronner and Bozorgmehr represent a level of mastery over ME2 that the majority of players have not yet achieved. Saying Vanguards cannot die is ridiculous. You can be good enough at a Vanguard to cheat death in almost every encounter, but there are still moments when enemies can get lucky stagger chains going and then you're toast.

I would argue that the average ME2 player would experience a lot of frustrating deaths when playing a Charge-focused Vanguard on Insanity.

^This.
Before my current try, I had no idea how to use charge.  It seemed like a waste of time, and every time I used it I became very frustrated by the fact that I am surrounded.
Flash forward 3 months and 2 vanguard runs later, and I am now just beginning to scratch the surface on how charge can be used.  I am usually like Bozorgmehr (as far as I can tell), hanging behind cover, taking potshots and generally holding the line.  Now (with the help of almost a dozen playthroughs), I am becoming more aggressive.  and expanding my capabilities.

In a nutshell, the average player will not be used to these methods, and therefore will not be "cheating death" with charges constantly.  Everything is a strategy, and the charge ability will be one that one cannot master on their first go on insanity.  Lighten up guys, The game may seem easy one way or the other because we play it so much

EDIT: I do agree that strategically, you should have to thin out enemies before charging in, however that is not what the vanguard is built for.  They are given a shotgun, not a sniper or assault rifle.  It is their role to engage the enemies in close quarters, and what better way to get into close quarters than teleporting instantaneously.

Modifié par aDuck, 16 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I'd like Vanguards to be great at Charging, but also have some limitations - they should not be able to Charge everything imo. ME2 Vanguards are basically DA tanks and top tier damage dealers in one. That's a little too much. The need to reduce the number of enemies a little, before Charging in and finish the lot would be a better balance between tanking and damage dealing in my book.

For most players, there is a need to thin the enemy ranks a bit.  Perhaps you'll recall how Vanguards were slammed last year for being too weak and flimsy to do well on Insanity.  In my opinion, Vanguards have an appropriate level of power considering their learning curve.  I will not claim, though, that the learning curve is the same for everyone.  Some people are more comfortable in close quarters while playing shooters.

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I'd like Vanguards to be great at Charging, but also have some limitations - they should not be able to Charge everything imo. ME2 Vanguards are basically DA tanks and top tier damage dealers in one. That's a little too much. The need to reduce the number of enemies a little, before Charging in and finish the lot would be a better balance between tanking and damage dealing in my book.

Here's where we have a problem, please don't try to dictate the terms on how we enjoy our classes (Vanguard/Sentinel), you are clearly an adept by heart. Problem with ME1 was too much overlapping skills which made the hybrids (Infiltrator/Vanguard) better than their pure class siblings. Hybrids needs a niche of their own rather than being half-assed versions of the pure classes (Soldier/Adept/Engineer). I love being a tank, Kronner love being a charge machine, and lots of other people do too, take that away and you've successfully ruined my fun.

[termokanden]

I also don't see Vanguards as overpowered. Charging around a lot requires precision and quick reactions. The rewards is killing very quickly.

Other classes can survive much more comfortably from a distance and never really need to take big risks.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Here's where we have a problem, please don't try to dictate the terms on how we enjoy our classes (Vanguard/Sentinel), you are clearly an adept by heart. Problem with ME1 was too much overlapping skills which made the hybrids (Infiltrator/Vanguard) better than their pure class siblings. Hybrids needs a niche of their own rather than being half-assed versions of the pure classes (Soldier/Adept/Engineer). I love being a tank, Kronner love being a charge machine, and lots of other people do too, take that away and you've successfully ruined my fun.

I'm not dictating anything - I give my opinion like everyone else. When you enjoy a particular class does not mean everyone else does too.

ME1's class system is bad, too much overlap like you've said. This has been improved a lot in ME2 but the supposedly hybrid classes are one-power specialists - they are fun to play but they don't really 'fit' the term hybrid. Vanguards are (close) combat specialist - not biotics; Sentinels are tanks - not tech/biotic specialist.

I also find it hard to believe that the fact you cannot tank or charge 100% of the time (maybe 80 % instead) ruins all the fun. Give the player options; let them decide how they like to play each class; the ME2 Vanguard is awesome at CQC but sucks at everything else - caster Sentinels are a lot weaker than Assault Sentinels. I'd like some tweaks to make it a viable option to focus on biotics (VG) and end up with a good CQC character who can cast biotics effectively. Power Sentinels should be relatively equally powerful compared to Assault Sentinels.

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I also find it hard to believe that the fact you cannot tank or charge 100% of the time (maybe 80 % instead) ruins all the fun. Give the player options; let them decide how they like to play each class; the ME2 Vanguard is awesome at CQC but sucks at everything else - caster Sentinels are a lot weaker than Assault Sentinels. I'd like some tweaks to make it a viable option to focus on biotics (VG) and end up with a good CQC character who can cast biotics effectively. Power Sentinels should be relatively equally powerful compared to Assault Sentinels.

Good points, but the problem is that Vanguards and Sentinels painted themselves into a corner by getting signature abilites that are so obviously good at one thing that going the other direction (caster) really doesn't do that well by comparison. Infiltrators however are alot better in that regard, you can go the assassin 1S1K route or mix it up with shotgun/AR/bonus power to make them alot more diverse in gameplay.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
It's already very easy. I reckon you've said Charge's cooldown should be increased a little to make it a little less OP. That would add some tactical depth; but Vanguards will still use Charge all the time (not doing so is gimping yourself).

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I mean, you basically say Vanguard's Charge wins the game by default, there is no risk and it is incredibly easy. Well, to be honest, I will rather stop now because I really do not want to throw strong/curse words at you..I mean when I look back at all the deaths I experienced while playing Vanguard..I rarely die now, but given how much time I've spent with the game, it is no surprise. In any case, you saying that Charge = I WIN button/Vanguard can't die is f***ing ridiculous. I even thought it was a joke for a second.

A cautious Adept can't die, but they will die when they're taking risks - Vanguard can't die (risk is almost a non-issue). Speed is important; designing one power that makes it (easily) possible to clear levels in (say) 10 minutes; and designing a set of powers who (while using them effectively) results in a 20 minute fight - is not good design or balance.

See above.

I don't care that some classes are a bit more powerful, but the difference should be small. Speed and 'tedious' are closely related - combat needs pace to keep it fun. No one likes to camp somewhere and slowly wear down the enemy - that's boring.

This is already present in ME2.

To work as a team is more complex than going at it alone; and using 3 powers at the right time is more complex than bashing one button only. It's ain't night and day, but more options increase complexity (just a little bit).

Well, to me, the difference between 'multiplication and addition' AND this is about the same. Either way, it is so simple combination that putting "complexity" into the same sentence is hilarious. Charge is arguably more difficult to use because you must be precise and react quickly. With Singularity or whatever you can sit behind cover and if you screw it up, you just stay where you are and try again in 4 seconds. This is not really possible to compare directly, different people will see it differently.

I would also like to point out that there are very few (<90%) ME2 players who don't "know" how to use Charge (that was only an issue during the first days (maybe weeks) after release) whereas most players (>80%) still don't know how to utilize the Adept's biotic powers when enemies use defenses. Does say something about the "complexity", no?

Not really. People simply expected Adept to be the bioticGod (ala ME1) and that is not the case in ME2. People like to b1tch and moan. I personally find Adept to be easier to play than Vanguard. Not as fast, but nowhere near as risky either.

Idon't see why making the Vanguard more powerful would change all that much anyway. They are just as strong with and without extra abilities. I'm more interested in increasing the challenge a little.

Seriously?
So first you say Vanguard is I-WIN class, and adding more power to them is gonna make the game more challenging? If you mean more challenge = enemies with more DP and HP, then, as I said above, you'd use 2 gimped powers instead of one powerful power in the same timeframe..this is not any better, it is actually much worse. Better AI would not change much given the time dilatation effect.

Just answer this:

Do you believe the ME2 Vanguard is the end of gaming evolution, i.e. they are perfect the way they are now?

Or do you think there might be ways to keep all the good stuff, but also give the Vanguard powers that occasionally see some action beside Charge (without forcing player to get into cover doing so)?

I never claimed Vanguard was perfectly designed. I just absolutely hate your change proposals, because you totally ignore many important facts.

All I can say is that I'm glad Bioware wasn't acting like a grumpy conservative grandpa while designing ME2's combat system. I'd like to see a similar improvement in ME3. I'm not saying I know how, or that I'm holding the Holy Grail or anything. I simply don't like it that a game like Crysis is a "better" shooter-rpg than ME2. The nano suit's modes allow lots of ways to approach fights; ME2's system doesn't (you need to play a different class to be able to use another "nanosuit mode"). If the guys at Crytec can do it, Bioware can do it too.

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges.
But I do agree that any gameplay improvement is welcome.

==

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ME1's class system is bad, too much overlap like you've said. This has been improved a lot in ME2 but the
supposedly hybrid classes are one-power specialists - they are fun to play but they don't really 'fit' the term hybrid. Vanguards are (close) combat specialist - not biotics; Sentinels are tanks - not tech/biotic specialist.

This is just not true. Vanguard can be played in a number of ways. The fact that you completly ignore this fact is sad. Personally, I play one dimensional, one power Vanguard, because I love it. BUT, it is possible to take AR, play a long range biotic/combat hybrid with occasional Charge, I am sure some people enjoy that.

Sentinels, again, do NOT have to be tanks. You, again, ignore this fact.

Not much to add, really.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I also find it hard to believe that the fact you cannot tank or charge 100% of the time (maybe 80 % instead) ruins all the fun. Give the player options; let them decide how they like to play each class; the ME2 Vanguard is awesome at CQC but sucks at everything else - caster Sentinels are a lot weaker than Assault Sentinels. I'd like some tweaks to make it a viable option to focus on biotics (VG) and end up with a good CQC character who can cast biotics effectively. Power Sentinels should be relatively equally powerful compared to Assault Sentinels.

And here we go again. You TOTALLY ignore the fact that the game is NOT based around Insanity. Not every power can be viable on ANY difficulty. Achieving that kind of balance in a game is not worth the resources it would take. And you know damn well I like Insanity in ME2. But this is simply a fact. Be realistic.

Modifié par Kronner, 16 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ahglock]

I don't know what or if it should be fixed. But it doesn't seem right to me that 3 classes are at their optimum by spamming one power. Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me. All of the classes can be played in a variety of ways, but you get through the levels better just with TA. I happen to like area pull on my vanguard, I strip defenses with a squadmate, pull, then charge in and point blank range floating foes. I think it is fun. But just charge spamming would have been quicker and easier.