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Global Cumulative Cooldown System for ME 3


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#76
Bozorgmehr

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There seems to be some misunderstanding about some of my 'problems' :)

First of all, I'm not, in any way, arguing for any kind of new-system - I love the global cd system and would never trade it for the crappy ME1 system. Second, I've no problem with some difference between classes - the less alike, the better. I do, however, have issues with the fact that some classes have strengths AND weaknesses whilst others have only strengths.

Ahglock wrote...

I don't know what or if it should be fixed. But it doesn't seem right to me that 3 classes are at their optimum by spamming one power. Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me. All of the classes can be played in a variety of ways, but you get through the levels better just with TA. I happen to like area pull on my vanguard, I strip defenses with a squadmate, pull, then charge in and point blank range floating foes. I think it is fun. But just charge spamming would have been quicker and easier.


Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me - I agree. Every strategic, tactical or causal game with different abilities/units/pieces has some kind of depth. A RTS game - with super-units that have no weakness and destroy all other units without breaking a sweat - is a very poor game. If you could play chess and beat everything using only one piece - nobody would have ever heard about chess in the first place. This simple principle does not (or hardly) exist is ME2.

The Vanguard class is the ME equivalent of (oldschool) cavalry. Speed and maneuverability are their strengths; they can appear everywhere on the battlefield to use their devastating charge. (Heavy) cavalry ruled the battlefield but, despite all their power, cavalry could never charge a well disciplined enemy (spear/pike) formation head on (that's suicidal). This makes cavalry an extremely useful component in the hands of any commander (including fools) - but not invincible. They can annihilate small groups of skirmishers who got separated from the main army AND they are lethal hitting the enemy in the rear or flanks.
In modern-day warfare speed still is an important factor, but a very fast vehicle cannot be well armored at the same time; speed makes it harder for enemies to catch/hit/destroy the vehicle (protecting the people inside), speed is used to stay clear of trouble. ME2 Vanguards are heavily armored F1 racing cars - a ridiculous concept.

I totally agree every class should be easy to play on Normal (they all are); everything dies quickly and all classes don't have to care about cover much; Vanguards Charge and kill, Soldiers shoot and kill, and Adepts CC the lot and kill. On Insanity, Vanguards still don't need cover and Charge-Kill; Soldier do need cover and Shoot-Kill; and Adepts also need cover and CC-Kill (regardless of skill). This doesn't make sense, the only true combat specialist (Soldier) is a lot more vulnerable than the part-combatant? Why are vanguards still armored F1 racing cars whereas Soldiers (and Adepts) all of a sudden become extremely fragile?

In my book - and if anyone still doesn't understand, why after all this time, I give up <_< - Vanguards are not the class they're supposed to be. Very powerful on Normal is OK, but without any significant weakness on Insanity is not good. Charge should be a tactical power; speed should be key to the Vanguard's success, but it isn't. Charge is used for two things only: to get shields back and to teleport into point blank shotgun range (allowing OSOK) to maximize damage; 'shields lost' > Charge, 'nearest enemy is 15+ feet away' > Charge. This has little to nothing to do with tactics, and there are no targets that cannot be charged which, again, should be (easily) possible on Normal, but not on Insanity. Just like anyone who wants to play a biotic god can be one on Normal; so should anyone who wants to play a non-cover, non-tactical Vanguard.

There is no problem with Vanguards being harder to kill than Adepts (Soldiers are a different matter though). I, however, do believe the game would have been better balanced if Bioware had added Reave to the Adept and Energy Drain to the Engineer - for example. Those powers would give them the option to keep shooting / using powers without having to get back into cover to wait for shield regen all the time - Adepts and Engineers would still be a lot more vulnerable out in the open compared to Vanguards, but it would have given them some breathing room (it'd also fit their profile; Adepts are strong against organics - Engineers against synthetics).

If you develop a 3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements - the game ME wants to be - you don't come up with near invincible classes (who need cover nor tactics) and (squisy) classes who do rely on cover and (basic) tactics. "Wait, wait, but Boz it's so much fun to play Vanguard / Sentinel like this" - Yes, so is an Adept who can go berserk with biotics > turn down the difficulty if you want to play in (near) godmode please. :)

Seriously, I really hope this changes in ME3. Vanguards should be about speed, not armor (on Insanity), Charge should be a tactical power - not something that allows players to head-butt their way through.
Heavy cavalry was best when they charged, retreated, regrouped and charged again and they (only) charged where the enemy was most vulnerable. Vanguards should charge, kill, pull back (charge back to somewhere safe maybe? - i.e. speed is used for protection, not armor), recover/regen, charge again. Other skills should play a more important role to complement charge - ME2's powers are useless (Charge = kill, Pull/Shockwave = a dizzy enemy), only a couple bonus powers have their uses (Slam-bombs, Reave, ED and Stasis (damage bug) but that's nothing special coz they are equally useful on all the other classes - hell, even the Adept cannot insta-warp-bomb without bonus power).

End of rant :P

P.S. I do want to break a lance for Charge. Because it is a truly awesome power - more than enough to play ME2. There are, however, a couple things worth mentioning. Charge is the total opposite of '3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements'-gameplay. It's a completely illogical power - instead of the usual 'get cover when you're taking heavy fire' you Charge! Which is great fun btw. The 'hardest' part is to reorganize your mind and get familiar with the new rules of engagement, 'skills' (the ability to use controls) play a less important role.
Charge needed the shield buff to allow players to get going - it would've been a fiasco without. Once adepted to this new playstyle the shield regen isn't needed anymore. Those who know how to use Charge can easily charge in (with shields up), kill 1-3 mooks and get somewhere safe without high risk (Insanity) > a more tactical version of Charge, not a quasi defensive buff.

Everything stated above is NOT directly related to ME2, it's about MY hopes for ME3. At this point we know nothing about the ME3 Vanguard except that they will have Charge (though we do not know if it will be exactly like ME2's version), that Vanguards can carry 3 weapons and (like all classes) will get a CQC melee skill. I hope Bioware treats the the ME2 Vanguard the way they did the Adept (ME1 > ME2). The Adepts' powers were 'gimped' but in a good way (still 'gamebreakingly' powerful on Normal yet less useful on Insanity). Instead of CC ing all enemies, the ME2 (Insanity) Adept can only CC a select few enemies, biotics remain useful but do not trivializing fights like in ME1. We all are familiar with ME2's Charge by now - let's turn up the difficulty and make it a true "High Risk, High Reward" power and while BW is at it - add a bunch of cool combat and biotic powers and you'll end up with combat-biotic-CQC class who needs tactics, uses more than one power/weapon and requires cover sometimes.

This Vanguard can still kill a lot faster than an Adept but not in the over-the-top ME2 way. If that's your thing play Duke Nukem Forever to kick some aliens between the legs and say something badass (if it will be released of course) or turn down the difficulty.

Yes, I will shut up now - don't worry - it's time for diner. ^_^

#77
Stardusk78

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RGFrog wrote...

BAOBAB_AOTEAROA wrote...

 i think this discussion is geared too much towards the insanity mode, then to lower level difficulties.

it could be that insanity mode forces you to be efficient, by mostly spamming class special power, and at the same time does not provide situations (enviroment, type of enemies, combination of enemies) where another power could be more useful.


I can agree with this. Except that Insanity mode has not 'forced' me to spam a power. Even on builds like Vanguard with Charge, or Engineer with Drone, etc., I find myself trying different things. The reason is that the AI is not that efficient at attacking shep.

True, arival was a bit different with the rho section, but it still showed a major flaw with the AI in that there were still locations where the AI simply failed to press sheppard.

Anytime that happens, no matter the class, no matter the build, no matter what weapons, the player has the abillity to recouperate and pretty much undue the results of prior poor decisions.

It's the lack of sustained and increasing danger that makes Insanity easy once experienced a few times. The only thing Insanity really does is add an extra stripping step that is made slightly harder (read tedious) by a slight reduction in the efficacy of weapons/powers.

In this, even simpler powers like pull are effective even OP when given enough time. Against this any change makes absolutely no gameplay difference.

What the changes proposed by the OP do, instead, is affect the gamer's ability to choose HOW he or she plays the game. I have no problem with this as the game is single player and there is absolutely nothing that requires somone to play one way or another.

Challenge right now is largely in the hands of what the player creates. In order for that to happen a player must have more choices in how to create challenge or in how to make existing challenges different or more fun to complete.

Now, if in ME3 the AI's tactics change siginificantly, then none of what has been proposed here will be even remotely OP. If you are, as a player, unable to take cover for a significant ammount of time due to enemy flanking, etc. a single global cooldown will severely hamper a player's ability to survive.

Right now the enemy AI will stay 3 feet away from Shep trying to shoot through a box nearly forever while shep's health and shields regenerate. So, the need for combined cooldowns, or me1 style separae cooldowns are completely unecessary. However, if they simply had the smarts to move around the box players would be clamoring for more of everything. Shorter CD's, more ammo, buffs that worked, etc. The abillity to make multiple casts at once would not be OP but rather the only option in many situations to keep your shep alive.


Well, they have already announced the use of 'Cover Busters'...it will be interesting what they do with powers.

#78
Stardusk78

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Bozorgmehr wrote...

There seems to be some misunderstanding about some of my 'problems' :)

First of all, I'm not, in any way, arguing for any kind of new-system - I love the global cd system and would never trade it for the crappy ME1 system. Second, I've no problem with some difference between classes - the less alike, the better. I do, however, have issues with the fact that some classes have strengths AND weaknesses whilst others have only strengths.

Ahglock wrote...

I don't know what or if it should be fixed. But it doesn't seem right to me that 3 classes are at their optimum by spamming one power. Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me. All of the classes can be played in a variety of ways, but you get through the levels better just with TA. I happen to like area pull on my vanguard, I strip defenses with a squadmate, pull, then charge in and point blank range floating foes. I think it is fun. But just charge spamming would have been quicker and easier.


Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me - I agree. Every strategic, tactical or causal game with different abilities/units/pieces has some kind of depth. A RTS game - with super-units that have no weakness and destroy all other units without breaking a sweat - is a very poor game. If you could play chess and beat everything using only one piece - nobody would have ever heard about chess in the first place. This simple principle does not (or hardly) exist is ME2.

The Vanguard class is the ME equivalent of (oldschool) cavalry. Speed and maneuverability are their strengths; they can appear everywhere on the battlefield to use their devastating charge. (Heavy) cavalry ruled the battlefield but, despite all their power, cavalry could never charge a well disciplined enemy (spear/pike) formation head on (that's suicidal). This makes cavalry an extremely useful component in the hands of any commander (including fools) - but not invincible. They can annihilate small groups of skirmishers who got separated from the main army AND they are lethal hitting the enemy in the rear or flanks.
In modern-day warfare speed still is an important factor, but a very fast vehicle cannot be well armored at the same time; speed makes it harder for enemies to catch/hit/destroy the vehicle (protecting the people inside), speed is used to stay clear of trouble. ME2 Vanguards are heavily armored F1 racing cars - a ridiculous concept.

I totally agree every class should be easy to play on Normal (they all are); everything dies quickly and all classes don't have to care about cover much; Vanguards Charge and kill, Soldiers shoot and kill, and Adepts CC the lot and kill. On Insanity, Vanguards still don't need cover and Charge-Kill; Soldier do need cover and Shoot-Kill; and Adepts also need cover and CC-Kill (regardless of skill). This doesn't make sense, the only true combat specialist (Soldier) is a lot more vulnerable than the part-combatant? Why are vanguards still armored F1 racing cars whereas Soldiers (and Adepts) all of a sudden become extremely fragile?

In my book - and if anyone still doesn't understand, why after all this time, I give up <_< - Vanguards are not the class they're supposed to be. Very powerful on Normal is OK, but without any significant weakness on Insanity is not good. Charge should be a tactical power; speed should be key to the Vanguard's success, but it isn't. Charge is used for two things only: to get shields back and to teleport into point blank shotgun range (allowing OSOK) to maximize damage; 'shields lost' > Charge, 'nearest enemy is 15+ feet away' > Charge. This has little to nothing to do with tactics, and there are no targets that cannot be charged which, again, should be (easily) possible on Normal, but not on Insanity. Just like anyone who wants to play a biotic god can be one on Normal; so should anyone who wants to play a non-cover, non-tactical Vanguard.

There is no problem with Vanguards being harder to kill than Adepts (Soldiers are a different matter though). I, however, do believe the game would have been better balanced if Bioware had added Reave to the Adept and Energy Drain to the Engineer - for example. Those powers would give them the option to keep shooting / using powers without having to get back into cover to wait for shield regen all the time - Adepts and Engineers would still be a lot more vulnerable out in the open compared to Vanguards, but it would have given them some breathing room (it'd also fit their profile; Adepts are strong against organics - Engineers against synthetics).

If you develop a 3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements - the game ME wants to be - you don't come up with near invincible classes (who need cover nor tactics) and (squisy) classes who do rely on cover and (basic) tactics. "Wait, wait, but Boz it's so much fun to play Vanguard / Sentinel like this" - Yes, so is an Adept who can go berserk with biotics > turn down the difficulty if you want to play in (near) godmode please. :)

Seriously, I really hope this changes in ME3. Vanguards should be about speed, not armor (on Insanity), Charge should be a tactical power - not something that allows players to head-butt their way through.
Heavy cavalry was best when they charged, retreated, regrouped and charged again and they (only) charged where the enemy was most vulnerable. Vanguards should charge, kill, pull back (charge back to somewhere safe maybe? - i.e. speed is used for protection, not armor), recover/regen, charge again. Other skills should play a more important role to complement charge - ME2's powers are useless (Charge = kill, Pull/Shockwave = a dizzy enemy), only a couple bonus powers have their uses (Slam-bombs, Reave, ED and Stasis (damage bug) but that's nothing special coz they are equally useful on all the other classes - hell, even the Adept cannot insta-warp-bomb without bonus power).

End of rant :P

P.S. I do want to break a lance for Charge. Because it is a truly awesome power - more than enough to play ME2. There are, however, a couple things worth mentioning. Charge is the total opposite of '3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements'-gameplay. It's a completely illogical power - instead of the usual 'get cover when you're taking heavy fire' you Charge! Which is great fun btw. The 'hardest' part is to reorganize your mind and get familiar with the new rules of engagement, 'skills' (the ability to use controls) play a less important role.
Charge needed the shield buff to allow players to get going - it would've been a fiasco without. Once adepted to this new playstyle the shield regen isn't needed anymore. Those who know how to use Charge can easily charge in (with shields up), kill 1-3 mooks and get somewhere safe without high risk (Insanity) > a more tactical version of Charge, not a quasi defensive buff.

Everything stated above is NOT directly related to ME2, it's about MY hopes for ME3. At this point we know nothing about the ME3 Vanguard except that they will have Charge (though we do not know if it will be exactly like ME2's version), that Vanguards can carry 3 weapons and (like all classes) will get a CQC melee skill. I hope Bioware treats the the ME2 Vanguard the way they did the Adept (ME1 > ME2). The Adepts' powers were 'gimped' but in a good way (still 'gamebreakingly' powerful on Normal yet less useful on Insanity). Instead of CC ing all enemies, the ME2 (Insanity) Adept can only CC a select few enemies, biotics remain useful but do not trivializing fights like in ME1. We all are familiar with ME2's Charge by now - let's turn up the difficulty and make it a true "High Risk, High Reward" power and while BW is at it - add a bunch of cool combat and biotic powers and you'll end up with combat-biotic-CQC class who needs tactics, uses more than one power/weapon and requires cover sometimes.

This Vanguard can still kill a lot faster than an Adept but not in the over-the-top ME2 way. If that's your thing play Duke Nukem Forever to kick some aliens between the legs and say something badass (if it will be released of course) or turn down the difficulty.

Yes, I will shut up now - don't worry - it's time for diner. ^_^


Hey Boz, what about this ME3 Singularity evolution; Singularity restores heath and/or barrier to Adept in proportion to amount of defences stripped on enemy by it...whatcha think?

#79
Kronner

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Bozorgmehr wrote...
...
rant
...


Ah, **** it. Nevermind.

Modifié par Kronner, 17 avril 2011 - 05:48 .


#80
Ahglock

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Average players probably wont play on insanity so it doesn't really matter.  They can go on a killing spree with or without charge anyways.  Average players will probably also hit pause unlike the top players who will get through these levels no pausing with just charge and a shotgun, so whatever challenge you might be experience on insanity that makes the vanguard tactical fun gold the average player wont be experiencing anyways.  Because even if they do play on insanity, they will be pasuing which does make it much easier than what you are doing.  

I don't think anyone is saying vanguards are invincible, but they do get through insanity at their best with one power and they don't have to pay any attention to their squad mates while doing it.  By the time I played vanguard I had put over a 100 hours into this game so I don't know what it is or was like for those who started with them.  I found them easy, but by then any class probably would be easy.  I might have to pay attention to the battlefield a bit to see the best place to charge, but that is no different than knowing the choke points of where to put a singularity, or the best place to put a drone, or the best place to sneak to etc.  Could I be killed sure, it happened plently of times when I went for something super awesome but instead should have cone for something somewhat cool, but mainly I got killed when I'd hear the dreaded words that let me know I couldn't charge there.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 17 avril 2011 - 06:55 .


#81
Kronner

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Nevermind, sorry. I am outta here.

Modifié par Kronner, 17 avril 2011 - 05:48 .


#82
NightAntilli

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I don't really like the suggestion made by the opening poster. But I do think some changes would be good..  I think it would make sense if Biotics, Tech and Combat each had a different cool-down timer. It doesn't make sense for example, that Miranda uses Overload, and she can't use Warp afterwards. They're completely different abilities and technologically speaking, they also draw power from different devices (omni-tool vs biotic amp). I think this would be an improvement to have a separate timer for each type of power..

Modifié par NightAntilli, 17 avril 2011 - 05:47 .


#83
BAOBAB_AOTEAROA

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lazuli wrote...

RGFrog wrote...
True, arival was a bit different with the rho section, but it still showed a major flaw with the AI in that there were still locations where the AI simply failed to press sheppard.

Anytime that happens, no matter the class, no matter the build, no matter what weapons, the player has the abillity to recouperate and pretty much undue the results of prior poor decisions.


Good point.  I wonder what adding a few FENRIS and LOKI mechs to the Rho section would do to it.  They pressure more reliably than pyros.



i agree with both of you

the most challenging fights in ME2 happen where there are different enemies at the same time( CQC - long combat; agressive AI  and support fire AI) and there are  vawes of enemies coming from different directions one after another(think arrival and defend the hatch) in these sitautions you had take advantage of enviroment and diversify your approach, and you couldn´t just wait behind a cover........

as RGFrog said though ai of the enemies is really lacking, or strange in some occasions, so you will find a ´ bugged´ spot

my hypothesis is :

---------------------------------------------------------
DIFFERENT ENEMIES( for example more melee enemies)

DIVERSIFIED ENEMY APPROACH

MORE ENEMY POWERS

DIFFERENT ENVIROMENTS(ledges, wind, electricity plus much more i hope in ME3)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                             will create sitations and new strategies and power combination


-----------------------------------------------
IN WHICH SPECIAL classS POWERS WILL NOT BE THE MOST EFFCIENT
----------------------------------------------

                          therefore a rational player will not want always to use the same super power
                                   and the players behavour will be more diversified and flexible


A PLUS  is ofcourse if there are new powers (1-3 MAXIMUN i would say) or power evlutions-specalisations

A PLUS is if there are new power combinations ( also in the tech branch for example)

A PLUS is there is some class twaeking

A PLUS is , for me, THE COURAGE OF BIOWARE, who decided at it´s own risk to make significant changes to the ME1 gameplaywise and made ME2 , i hope we see such an evolution jump in ME3 also

 



p.s i woud also like to add that the overall predominant  use of the class powers, does aplly only in part, to the two `caster` classes: engineers and adepts, wich in my view are also the most flexible

#84
Stardusk78

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Bozorgmehr wrote...

There seems to be some misunderstanding about some of my 'problems' :)

First of all, I'm not, in any way, arguing for any kind of new-system - I love the global cd system and would never trade it for the crappy ME1 system. Second, I've no problem with some difference between classes - the less alike, the better. I do, however, have issues with the fact that some classes have strengths AND weaknesses whilst others have only strengths.

Ahglock wrote...

I don't know what or if it should be fixed. But it doesn't seem right to me that 3 classes are at their optimum by spamming one power. Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me. All of the classes can be played in a variety of ways, but you get through the levels better just with TA. I happen to like area pull on my vanguard, I strip defenses with a squadmate, pull, then charge in and point blank range floating foes. I think it is fun. But just charge spamming would have been quicker and easier.


Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me - I agree. Every strategic, tactical or causal game with different abilities/units/pieces has some kind of depth. A RTS game - with super-units that have no weakness and destroy all other units without breaking a sweat - is a very poor game. If you could play chess and beat everything using only one piece - nobody would have ever heard about chess in the first place. This simple principle does not (or hardly) exist is ME2.

The Vanguard class is the ME equivalent of (oldschool) cavalry. Speed and maneuverability are their strengths; they can appear everywhere on the battlefield to use their devastating charge. (Heavy) cavalry ruled the battlefield but, despite all their power, cavalry could never charge a well disciplined enemy (spear/pike) formation head on (that's suicidal). This makes cavalry an extremely useful component in the hands of any commander (including fools) - but not invincible. They can annihilate small groups of skirmishers who got separated from the main army AND they are lethal hitting the enemy in the rear or flanks.
In modern-day warfare speed still is an important factor, but a very fast vehicle cannot be well armored at the same time; speed makes it harder for enemies to catch/hit/destroy the vehicle (protecting the people inside), speed is used to stay clear of trouble. ME2 Vanguards are heavily armored F1 racing cars - a ridiculous concept.

I totally agree every class should be easy to play on Normal (they all are); everything dies quickly and all classes don't have to care about cover much; Vanguards Charge and kill, Soldiers shoot and kill, and Adepts CC the lot and kill. On Insanity, Vanguards still don't need cover and Charge-Kill; Soldier do need cover and Shoot-Kill; and Adepts also need cover and CC-Kill (regardless of skill). This doesn't make sense, the only true combat specialist (Soldier) is a lot more vulnerable than the part-combatant? Why are vanguards still armored F1 racing cars whereas Soldiers (and Adepts) all of a sudden become extremely fragile?

In my book - and if anyone still doesn't understand, why after all this time, I give up <_< - Vanguards are not the class they're supposed to be. Very powerful on Normal is OK, but without any significant weakness on Insanity is not good. Charge should be a tactical power; speed should be key to the Vanguard's success, but it isn't. Charge is used for two things only: to get shields back and to teleport into point blank shotgun range (allowing OSOK) to maximize damage; 'shields lost' > Charge, 'nearest enemy is 15+ feet away' > Charge. This has little to nothing to do with tactics, and there are no targets that cannot be charged which, again, should be (easily) possible on Normal, but not on Insanity. Just like anyone who wants to play a biotic god can be one on Normal; so should anyone who wants to play a non-cover, non-tactical Vanguard.

There is no problem with Vanguards being harder to kill than Adepts (Soldiers are a different matter though). I, however, do believe the game would have been better balanced if Bioware had added Reave to the Adept and Energy Drain to the Engineer - for example. Those powers would give them the option to keep shooting / using powers without having to get back into cover to wait for shield regen all the time - Adepts and Engineers would still be a lot more vulnerable out in the open compared to Vanguards, but it would have given them some breathing room (it'd also fit their profile; Adepts are strong against organics - Engineers against synthetics).

If you develop a 3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements - the game ME wants to be - you don't come up with near invincible classes (who need cover nor tactics) and (squisy) classes who do rely on cover and (basic) tactics. "Wait, wait, but Boz it's so much fun to play Vanguard / Sentinel like this" - Yes, so is an Adept who can go berserk with biotics > turn down the difficulty if you want to play in (near) godmode please. :)

Seriously, I really hope this changes in ME3. Vanguards should be about speed, not armor (on Insanity), Charge should be a tactical power - not something that allows players to head-butt their way through.
Heavy cavalry was best when they charged, retreated, regrouped and charged again and they (only) charged where the enemy was most vulnerable. Vanguards should charge, kill, pull back (charge back to somewhere safe maybe? - i.e. speed is used for protection, not armor), recover/regen, charge again. Other skills should play a more important role to complement charge - ME2's powers are useless (Charge = kill, Pull/Shockwave = a dizzy enemy), only a couple bonus powers have their uses (Slam-bombs, Reave, ED and Stasis (damage bug) but that's nothing special coz they are equally useful on all the other classes - hell, even the Adept cannot insta-warp-bomb without bonus power).

End of rant :P

P.S. I do want to break a lance for Charge. Because it is a truly awesome power - more than enough to play ME2. There are, however, a couple things worth mentioning. Charge is the total opposite of '3rd person, cover-based shooter with tactical rpg elements'-gameplay. It's a completely illogical power - instead of the usual 'get cover when you're taking heavy fire' you Charge! Which is great fun btw. The 'hardest' part is to reorganize your mind and get familiar with the new rules of engagement, 'skills' (the ability to use controls) play a less important role.
Charge needed the shield buff to allow players to get going - it would've been a fiasco without. Once adepted to this new playstyle the shield regen isn't needed anymore. Those who know how to use Charge can easily charge in (with shields up), kill 1-3 mooks and get somewhere safe without high risk (Insanity) > a more tactical version of Charge, not a quasi defensive buff.

Everything stated above is NOT directly related to ME2, it's about MY hopes for ME3. At this point we know nothing about the ME3 Vanguard except that they will have Charge (though we do not know if it will be exactly like ME2's version), that Vanguards can carry 3 weapons and (like all classes) will get a CQC melee skill. I hope Bioware treats the the ME2 Vanguard the way they did the Adept (ME1 > ME2). The Adepts' powers were 'gimped' but in a good way (still 'gamebreakingly' powerful on Normal yet less useful on Insanity). Instead of CC ing all enemies, the ME2 (Insanity) Adept can only CC a select few enemies, biotics remain useful but do not trivializing fights like in ME1. We all are familiar with ME2's Charge by now - let's turn up the difficulty and make it a true "High Risk, High Reward" power and while BW is at it - add a bunch of cool combat and biotic powers and you'll end up with combat-biotic-CQC class who needs tactics, uses more than one power/weapon and requires cover sometimes.

This Vanguard can still kill a lot faster than an Adept but not in the over-the-top ME2 way. If that's your thing play Duke Nukem Forever to kick some aliens between the legs and say something badass (if it will be released of course) or turn down the difficulty.

Yes, I will shut up now - don't worry - it's time for diner. ^_^


BTW, excellent prose, superior to many native speakers...that aside, I will tell you why, despite your good argumentation, little will change with Charge: BW needs to make money, players love Charge as it is, so it ain't changing, far as I can tell.;)

#85
Stardusk78

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It's sad to see Kronner and Boz fight like this.

Modifié par Stardusk78, 17 avril 2011 - 07:37 .


#86
RGFrog

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lazuli wrote...

RGFrog wrote...
True, arival was a bit different with the rho section, but it still showed a major flaw with the AI in that there were still locations where the AI simply failed to press sheppard.

Anytime that happens, no matter the class, no matter the build, no matter what weapons, the player has the abillity to recouperate and pretty much undue the results of prior poor decisions.


Good point.  I wonder what adding a few FENRIS and LOKI mechs to the Rho section would do to it.  They pressure more reliably than pyros.


True, I don't often get flanked by the Fenris. I see them and take them out early because I learned in my first playthrough what a PIA they could be if they came around a corner and started their overload routine.

If every oponent had that same ability to move around cover for the kill... the game would be completely different and Insanity would have even the best players here talking about finite tactics and how one decision spurred a reload instead of videos showcasing how charge can be used to nerf the game.

Imagine if the AI took notice of an VG's charge, followed it to the target and swarmed with fire, movement, warp casts, overloads, drones and inferno blasts. The moment the VG came out of the charge it'd be lucky to get 2 claymore shots and fine cover before it was staggered to it's death.

#87
lazuli

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RGFrog wrote...
If every oponent had that same ability to move around cover for the kill... the game would be completely different and Insanity would have even the best players here talking about finite tactics and how one decision spurred a reload instead of videos showcasing how charge can be used to nerf the game.


I don't want every opponent to focus on pressure, though.  Each fight should feel a little different than the one before it, or the game could get stale.  One way to keep combat interesting is to have different enemies fulfill different roles.  Some enemies should pressure in close combat.  Some should lob powerful attacks from afar. 

These roles exist in ME2's enemies, but it could be better.  The shotgun enemies, for instance, rarely flank or pressure.  They spend most of their time firing from too far away to really be considered a threat.

#88
RGFrog

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Good points, lazuli. That should be the way it is on everything through Hardcore.

But, I'd want to see all opponents put on pressure in some significant way for Insanity, myself.

However, your way would definitely make playing on Normal and Veteran far more fun. Also, it would mean I could Adept the crap out of everything without having to deal with protections on 90% of the tangos.

Flank my adept, hah, why don't you check those rafters for bird nests.

#89
rumination888

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If 4 classes have powerful class abilities and 1 class does not... does that mean 4 classes are overpowered and 1 class is balanced, or 1 class is underpowered and 4 classes are balanced?

You can beat the entire game on Insanity with nothing more than a pistol and an SMG.
Does that mean a hypothetical class that can only weild pistols/SMGs and has no powers is balanced compared to the existing classes?

:whistle:

#90
Stardusk78

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rumination888 wrote...

If 4 classes have powerful class abilities and 1 class does not... does that mean 4 classes are overpowered and 1 class is balanced, or 1 class is underpowered and 4 classes are balanced?

You can beat the entire game on Insanity with nothing more than a pistol and an SMG.
Does that mean a hypothetical class that can only weild pistols/SMGs and has no powers is balanced compared to the existing classes?

:whistle:


Hmmm:whistle:

#91
Sparrow44

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rumination888 wrote...

If 4 classes have powerful class abilities and 1 class does not... does that mean 4 classes are overpowered and 1 class is balanced, or 1 class is underpowered and 4 classes are balanced?

You can beat the entire game on Insanity with nothing more than a pistol and an SMG.
Does that mean a hypothetical class that can only weild pistols/SMGs and has no powers is balanced compared to the existing classes?

:whistle:


On Insanity, being overpowered means there's something not right. A Soldier can steamroll any difficulty with just using AR. Adepts can use a selection of powers to deal with fights on any difficulty and can be played for fun depening on whether you think Insanity hampers the Adept or not.

#92
Bozorgmehr

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Stardusk78 wrote...

It's sad to see Kronner and Boz fight like this.


No fighting please, Asari Shepard knows her place - she'll likely get her butt kicked by Kronner's Vanguard anyways ;)

#93
Bozorgmehr

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rumination888 wrote...

If 4 classes have powerful class abilities and 1 class does not... does that mean 4 classes are overpowered and 1 class is balanced, or 1 class is underpowered and 4 classes are balanced?


All classes are overpowered on Normal. The way increasing the difficulty works plays an important part too imo, some classes/powers are affected whilst others are not.

#94
Ahglock

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Bozorgmehr wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

It's sad to see Kronner and Boz fight like this.


No fighting please, Asari Shepard knows her place - she'll likely get her butt kicked by Kronner's Vanguard anyways ;)


Kronner's vanguard is why I decided to try vanguard.  And damn the geth collosus fight at tali's recruitment made it worth it on its own.  And there was plenty of fun in other places as well.  

#95
PrinceLionheart

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Stardusk78 wrote...


Hey Boz, what about this ME3 Singularity evolution; Singularity restores heath and/or barrier to Adept in proportion to amount of defences stripped on enemy by it...whatcha think?


So it basically becomes a Combiination of Singularity and Reave. :P

#96
Aumata

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Bozorghemr, wouldn't what you propose neuter the Vanguard class? Not the Global Cumulative Cooldown, but the charge not recharging your shield/barrier. I mean I play a aggressive caster, and it would seem for me that all it does is revert the Vanguard class to a crappy version of a aggressive adept. Seeing how we are talking about insanity and all. That Vanguard basically lost his CQC status. I really not seeing how Charge is a OP skill, all it takes is one wrong charge to see the game over screen.

#97
Stardusk78

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


Hey Boz, what about this ME3 Singularity evolution; Singularity restores heath and/or barrier to Adept in proportion to amount of defences stripped on enemy by it...whatcha think?


So it basically becomes a Combiination of Singularity and Reave. :P


Uhm, well, you get barriers restored as well...

#98
NightAntilli

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NightAntilli wrote...

I don't really like the suggestion made by the opening poster. But I do think some changes would be good..  I think it would make sense if Biotics, Tech and Combat each had a different cool-down timer. It doesn't make sense for example, that Miranda uses Overload, and she can't use Warp afterwards. They're completely different abilities and technologically speaking, they also draw power from different devices (omni-tool vs biotic amp). I think this would be an improvement to have a separate timer for each type of power..

Ok it seems like no one liked my idea =(

#99
Relix28

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NightAntilli wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...

I don't really like the suggestion made by the opening poster. But I do think some changes would be good..  I think it would make sense if Biotics, Tech and Combat each had a different cool-down timer. It doesn't make sense for example, that Miranda uses Overload, and she can't use Warp afterwards. They're completely different abilities and technologically speaking, they also draw power from different devices (omni-tool vs biotic amp). I think this would be an improvement to have a separate timer for each type of power..

Ok it seems like no one liked my idea =(


This would make sense from a roleplaying perspective, but not so much in terms of gameplay. Let's be real here, and ask who would benefit from this. Sentinels would have the most benefit for obvious reasons, and maybe a squadmate or two, like Kaidan and Garrus. Every other class has only one type of powers available, Engineers and Iniltrators have Tech, Vanguards and Adepts have Biotics and Soldiers have Combat powers. And not every squadmate is a hybrid type character like Miranda/Kaidan or Garrus either. So I'm sure you can see how this idea of yours would create an imbalance between Sentinel types and everyone else.

#100
PrinceLionheart

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Stardusk78 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


Hey Boz, what about this ME3 Singularity evolution; Singularity restores heath and/or barrier to Adept in proportion to amount of defences stripped on enemy by it...whatcha think?


So it basically becomes a Combiination of Singularity and Reave. :P


Uhm, well, you get barriers restored as well...


Unless it has a large cooldown time, that would be crazy broken. :P