141 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

Stardusk78 wrote...

BW needs to make money, players love Charge as it is, so it ain't changing, far as I can tell.

You can say the same thing about biotic powers - a lot of people loved playing a biotic god in ME1 (Insanity) and complained this isn't the case anymore in ME2 (Insanity).

ME2 combat has improved (imo and I believe most frequent posters here agree) - reducing some effects (aka 'gimping' powers) does not necessarily means the game isn't fun to play anymore.

Ahglock wrote...

Kronner's vanguard is why I decided to try vanguard. And damn the geth collosus fight at tali's recruitment made it worth it on its own. And there was plenty of fun in other places as well.

I think Charging stuff like a Geth Colossus is very cool, but also a little immersion breaking. Some stuff should not be Chargeable imo - I definitely hope these kind of stunts are not possible in ME3 (on Insanity).
What's next? Shep Charging a Reaper and elbows it back into Dark-Space or wherever they're from? That would change the Vanguard into a Dragon Ball Z Super Sayain equivalent - I don't want that (brings back the immersion/game breaking Lift-the-ME1-Colossus-indefinitely BS).

Aumata wrote...

Bozorghemr, wouldn't what you propose neuter the Vanguard class? Not the Global Cumulative Cooldown, but the charge not recharging your shield/barrier. I mean I play a aggressive caster, and it would seem for me that all it does is revert the Vanguard class to a crappy version of a aggressive adept. Seeing how we are talking about insanity and all. That Vanguard basically lost his CQC status. I really not seeing how Charge is a OP skill, all it takes is one wrong charge to see the game over screen.

I disagree - Infiltrators who use Cloak and a shotgun are capable CQC fighters using stealth to move around and surprise the enemy. Infiltrators don't get a shield boost every time Cloak is used yet they are still effective CQC combatants. Infiltrators, however, cannot maintain CQC fighting indefinitely (like Vanguards and Sentinels) - they need to recuperate at some point to get shield/health back.

Which leads to another problem of Charge - it can only be used to get among the enemy, and not to get out of harms way when things get critical (Infiltrators can use Cloak to get into safety too). I'd like Charge to be able to move around the battlefield at will - into/out of CQC, but also to get into a (more) favorable position to engage the enemy at medium/long range.

I don't consider Infiltrators designated snipers only - they are exceptional SR users, but can also use their abilities for other purposes than long-range sniping. I really like that aspect of the ME2 Infiltrator. I also don't consider Vanguards to be CQC monsters only; they should be the best class when it comes to (but not limited to) CQC. Charge's speed versus Cloak's stealth = a better trade off and better balanced than ME2 Charge's speed AND armor versus Cloak's stealth only.

Back to the Global cd system; the fundamental issue with this system is the huge disbalance between powers. Giving each class 5-6 powers with one super-power that's 10x stronger than the rest doesn't work well. It almost forces players to spam one power only coz using one of the others will make Shep a (far) less effective fighter. A good system has powers which have specific strengths AND weaknesses. The situation, number of enemies, their positions, types, defenses etc should determine which power will be most effective.

The million dollar question is not about the cooldown system or a specific power; it's about how to give each class an unique ability and an edge when it comes to a particular fighting style without turning them into one-power-spam-bots who are great at one thing, and suck (bigtime) when it comes to everything else.

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Kronner's vanguard is why I decided to try vanguard. And damn the geth collosus fight at tali's recruitment made it worth it on its own. And there was plenty of fun in other places as well.

I think Charging stuff like a Geth Colossus is very cool, but also a little immersion breaking. Some stuff should not be Chargeable imo - I definitely hope these kind of stunts are not possible in ME3 (on Insanity).
What's next? Shep Charging a Reaper and elbows it back into Dark-Space or wherever they're from? That would change the Vanguard into a Dragon Ball Z Super Sayain equivalent - I don't want that (brings back the immersion/game breaking Lift-the-ME1-Colossus-indefinitely BS).

I don't mind charging the collosus, beating it just with charge and a shotgun was dumb.  But it was a bugged fight,  for some reason it never switched to his gun and only used the cannon so you always had recharge time, and no geth popped out of nowhere like they do if you get their the old fashioned way etc.  But charging it, then instantly grabbing cover would be fine with me if you time it right.  

[Bozorgmehr]

Ahglock wrote...

I don't mind charging the collosus, beating it just with charge and a shotgun was dumb.  But it was a bugged fight,  for some reason it never switched to his gun and only used the cannon so you always had recharge time, and no geth popped out of nowhere like they do if you get their the old fashioned way etc.  But charging it, then instantly grabbing cover would be fine with me if you time it right. 

Maybe Colossus isn't the best example - it's some kind of glitch you can exploit. I don't mind those kind of stunts (it would actually be cool if the devs deliberately add a couple of those 'glitches', you know, just for the lulz).

Charging a Krogan is cool; tough but manageable. Charging YMIRs or meleeing a Geth Prime to death is a bit too much imo.

[Relix28]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I don't mind charging the collosus, beating it just with charge and a shotgun was dumb.  But it was a bugged fight,  for some reason it never switched to his gun and only used the cannon so you always had recharge time, and no geth popped out of nowhere like they do if you get their the old fashioned way etc.  But charging it, then instantly grabbing cover would be fine with me if you time it right. 

Maybe Colossus isn't the best example - it's some kind of glitch you can exploit. I don't mind those kind of stunts (it would actually be cool if the devs deliberately add a couple of those 'glitches', you know, just for the lulz).

Charging a Krogan is cool; tough but manageable. Charging YMIRs or meleeing a Geth Prime to death is a bit too much imo.

Charging an YMIR mech on insanity is never a good idea. You usually die before you can charge it the third time and take it down. I've seen some videos of these one-on-one fights without cover, but it included a use of medi-gel, charge and shotgun and was very unorthodox.
And you can melee a Geth Prime to death with any class, not just with VG. You just have to get close and start dancing around him and mash the melee button. I think the problem is that they are not completely immune to melee and weapon hitstun (like YMIR mechs for instance), so you can basically keep him stunned just long enough to take down his protections (wich are not much tbh), and after that you can pretty do whatever you like to finish him off.

Just saying.

Modifié par Relix28, 18 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[Ahglock]

Relix28 wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I don't mind charging the collosus, beating it just with charge and a shotgun was dumb.  But it was a bugged fight,  for some reason it never switched to his gun and only used the cannon so you always had recharge time, and no geth popped out of nowhere like they do if you get their the old fashioned way etc.  But charging it, then instantly grabbing cover would be fine with me if you time it right. 

Maybe Colossus isn't the best example - it's some kind of glitch you can exploit. I don't mind those kind of stunts (it would actually be cool if the devs deliberately add a couple of those 'glitches', you know, just for the lulz).

Charging a Krogan is cool; tough but manageable. Charging YMIRs or meleeing a Geth Prime to death is a bit too much imo.

Charging an YMIR mech on insanity is never a good idea. You usually die before you can charge it the third time and take it down. I've seen some videos of these one-on-one fights without cover, but it included a use of medi-gel, charge and shotgun and was very unorthodox.
And you can melee a Geth Prime to death with any class, not just with VG. You just have to get close and start dancing around him and mash the melee button. I think the problem is that they are not completely immune to melee and weapon hitstun (like YMIR mechs for instance), so you can basically keep him stunned just long enough to take down his protections (wich are not much tbh), and after that you can pretty do whatever you like to finish him off.

Just saying.

Actually a single Ymir is easy with charge and a shotgun, your charge will regen before you go down every time.  Some people can handle 2 at once without cover.  Well technically they use one YMIR as cover from the other one, that I am not good enough to do, I always stumble into the line of fire of the 2nd ymir and die.  And yes again I don't like that.  I don't mind the charging it part, I just mind the charge spam with a shotgun winning.  If you waited until the YMIR prepped a missile, charged in for a point blank shot, then went to cover right after the first shot fine and dandy.  That seems to be in the working as intended area.  Whether that means foes like YMIR's need an upgrade or charge needs to be looked at I am not sure.  But, as I said earlier I think there is an issue when one power is so good your best bet is to only use that.  The class powers are generally better than your other powers, but with short duration self buffs it sort of leads to you just using that.  Which is fine if that makes the game harder for you, but when you are actually better off ignoring your other abilities it makes it seem too powerful to me.  

[Relix28]

My bad then. I usually charge just about anything (Harby, Scions, Geth Primes, etc...), except YMIR mechs. I always got screwed, so I just stoped charging at them while they they still have full protections.
Anyway, I hear ya. ME3 definitelly needs more variety, options and some balancing tweaks. But I'm not going into this debate of "what should" and "what shouldn't", because ultimately it is pointless, since the idea on how the game should be, differs from person to person.

[Ahglock]

Relix28 wrote...

My bad then. I usually charge just about anything (Harby, Scions, Geth Primes, etc...), except YMIR mechs. I always got screwed, so I just stoped charging at them while they they still have full protections.
Anyway, I hear ya. ME3 definitelly needs more variety, options and some balancing tweaks. But I'm not going into this debate of "what should" and "what shouldn't", because ultimately it is pointless, since the idea on how the game should be, differs from person to person.

I don't consider myself good and I can take out Ymirs with my vanguard without a problem. I lost to the first 2 or so, but I'd say level 10 on I could take them since charge was up fast enough from then on. Not sure about NG+ I have not done a vanguard run on NG+ yet.  But you are right everyone has a different vision on what makes the game good.  Some liked invulnerability from ME1 and meleeing a Geth Collusus to death, that made the game for them.  

[Alamar2078]

I wouldn't mind the Vanguard Charge not recharging shields as long as there were other changes made to make things workable.

I also agree that there shouldn't be any "I'll spam 1 power in your face and be invincible" skill in the game glitch or no glitch. A Collossus, Geth Prime, YMIR, etc. should take a lot of WORK & skill to take down on Insanity.

In terms of Vanguard & NG+ I find that I need about 3 upgrades across the board.  Earlier than that and I have to play like a chicken.  After that I can play like a maniac and it doesn't matter because the bad guys can't touch me.  YMMV.   Note:  I'm also not a good player.

EDIT:  The players with elite skills, builds, etc. should be able to take anything down more quickly than folks without the skills & build.  If that is NOT the case then i'd be disappointed.   I just don't want a press button .. awesome happens sort of thing going on

Modifié par Alamar2078, 19 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[Kronner]

Alamar2078 wrote...
A Collossus, Geth Prime, YMIR, etc. should take a lot of WORK & skill to take down on Insanity.

Is this really because power X is too powerful? Or maybe the enemy AI is just pathetic?

a) I Charge a Geth Prime, I kill him very quickly

I duck in cover -> I shoot the Prime -> I take cover again (shields down) -> Take Cover -> Shields Back -> I shoot the Prime ||| repeat until Prime dies

What's the difference?

a) is FUN is BORING

Seriously. The game needs to be tweaked a bit, no major changes are needed. Remember why you still play it - it IS fun to kill things in ME2.

Agree/Disagree?

[RGFrog]

LOL, i disagree. there should just be a win button I can buy on Omega... ROFL!!! j/k

On the flip side, I'm looking forward to the new system and hoping it's not so cookie cutter. I hoping to come back here on the hunt for the ultimate build and find not just one or two but dozens for each class.

Also that global cooldowns are either reduced or implemented differently than they are now.

Not a complete removal, but in such a way as to free up my choices. I'm still a fan of seperate cooldowns even though I really have no problem with the duck and wait. I'd just rather do what I want to do before ducking and waiting.

Modifié par RGFrog, 19 avril 2011 - 06:43 .

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...
A Collossus, Geth Prime, YMIR, etc. should take a lot of WORK & skill to take down on Insanity.

Is this really because power X is too powerful? Or maybe the enemy AI is just pathetic?

a) I Charge a Geth Prime, I kill him very quickly

I duck in cover -> I shoot the Prime -> I take cover again (shields down) -> Take Cover -> Shields Back -> I shoot the Prime ||| repeat until Prime dies

What's the difference?

a) is FUN is BORING

Seriously. The game needs to be tweaked a bit, no major changes are needed. Remember why you still play it - it IS fun to kill things in ME2.

Agree/Disagree?

Well I can see improved AI fixing the issues with cover huggers.  But if TA just recharges too quickly for example so a Prime can't really kill him between the staggers no AI in the world is going to fix that.  A better geth prime might so it did more DPS, or was immune to TA's stagger or whatever, but that is like a reverse nerf.  Buff the enemies so your powers don't work on them.  Better level design can fix some of it as well.  If a Geth prime was almost impossible to get alone, both cover huggers and charges would have to work for it more.  

[Kronner]

Ahglock wrote...

Well I can see improved AI fixing the issues with cover huggers.  But if TA just recharges too quickly for example so a Prime can't really kill him between the staggers no AI in the world is going to fix that.  A better geth prime might so it did more DPS, or was immune to TA's stagger or whatever, but that is like a reverse nerf.  Buff the enemies so your powers don't work on them.  Better level design can fix some of it as well.  If a Geth prime was almost impossible to get alone, both cover huggers and charges would have to work for it more. 

Hence the tweaking. Assault Armor is too good, yeah - can be fixed easily. These tough sub-bosses should be smarter, tougher and pose a threat in any situation, even if Shep is in cover.
I just don't see the problem with 'superpowers', when you can simply sit behind indestructible cover, with no danger of taking damage, let alone dying.

[Sparrow44]

RGFrog wrote...

On the flip side, I'm looking forward to the new system and hoping it's not so cookie cutter. I hoping to come back here on the hunt for the ultimate build and find not just one or two but dozens for each class.

Same here, I think potentially there's some really fun gameplay in store when ME3 hits the shelves and the chance that classes are replayable.

As for Charge being overpowered, not even the slightest. Charge is the only ability that if you use it the wrong way and isn't thoughful of enemy positioning means a sure-fire critical mission failure.

The other signature powers once activated don't send you instantly to the enemy, and to use it effectively requires good instincts and the hand on the mouse/fire button and the Charge button to move on to your next target.

[Relix28]

In short, my opinion on the matter is to leave the functioning powers as they are (maybe some tweaking here and there woulnd't hurt), but give the players more freedom with how they use their powers. That is why is generally liked the idea OP proposed. You could stil opt for a charge fest (wich is extremly fun), but also have a chance to mix it up with some biotic wizzardy after the charge if you so choose. I don't know how exactly it would work out in the end, but it does sound good in theory.
Also, the GI article confirmed more powers, evolutions and more freedom in the skill tree. If this is as it sounds, it should by itself bring a new level of depth and freshness to the game. Guess will just have to wait and see. *consideres cryofreezing himself till' November*

[Alamar2078]

Kronner wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...
A Collossus, Geth Prime, YMIR, etc. should take a lot of WORK & skill to take down on Insanity.

Is this really because power X is too powerful? Or maybe the enemy AI is just pathetic?

a) I Charge a Geth Prime, I kill him very quickly

I duck in cover -> I shoot the Prime -> I take cover again (shields down) -> Take Cover -> Shields Back -> I shoot the Prime ||| repeat until Prime dies

What's the difference?

a) is FUN is BORING

Seriously. The game needs to be tweaked a bit, no major changes are needed. Remember why you still play it - it IS fun to kill things in ME2.

Agree/Disagree?

I obviously agree that AI & scripting could be improved [dramatically?] to make things more fun.  I also agree that shoot, cover, shoot, cover, ... repeat ... bad guy dead is boring.

Morinth was right about one thing.  "Safe is boring".   In this case a cover that is never threatened is boring.  Using "immunity" from ME1 is boring & bothersome on numerous levels even if you are a "god" for a while.

Perhaps near-boss-level enemies like a Collossus, Geth Prime, YMIR need to have better AI or be more dangerous in some way.  For example maybe a Collossus should have should have multiple guns with a full 360 degree firing arc -- to make things easier maybe its belly is relatively unprotected??   Geth & YMIR could be designed in such a way to be more dangerous but still not be "perfect" in some way that could be "exploited"??

As far as "killing quickly" goes that is also boring / bad design for near boss level enemies [unless you're really clever].  Charge, shoot, elbow, repeat would not qualify as clever even if you are highly skilled.   Tricking the boss to a bridge or similar that could be blown up easier than the boss itself MIGHT be an example of something clever.

Note:  Elite players should always have methods that are VASTLY better than "shoot, cover, shoot, repeat".  I just don't think a near boss should be beaten in 10 seconds then you move on as it breaks immersion for me.  YMMV.

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Is this really because power X is too powerful? Or maybe the enemy AI is just pathetic?

a) I Charge a Geth Prime, I kill him very quickly

I duck in cover -> I shoot the Prime -> I take cover again (shields down) -> Take Cover -> Shields Back -> I shoot the Prime ||| repeat until Prime dies

What's the difference?

a) is FUN is BORING

Seriously. The game needs to be tweaked a bit, no major changes are needed. Remember why you still play it - it IS fun to kill things in ME2.

Agree/Disagree?

I agree with killing enemies is great, but the Prime example both (a) and ( are boring imo. It's great a couple times, but I always feel a little sad killing those big guys with such ease. They ought to be very hard to kill, and very dangerous opponents (not only tedious like the Praetorians). Stasis also sucks a little, one-shotting everything is cool a couple times, but gets old pretty soon.

Winning a hard fight is much more rewarding than killing so called powerful foes easily imo.

[Alamar2078]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Is this really because power X is too powerful? Or maybe the enemy AI is just pathetic?

a) I Charge a Geth Prime, I kill him very quickly

I duck in cover -> I shoot the Prime -> I take cover again (shields down) -> Take Cover -> Shields Back -> I shoot the Prime ||| repeat until Prime dies

What's the difference?

a) is FUN is BORING

Seriously. The game needs to be tweaked a bit, no major changes are needed. Remember why you still play it - it IS fun to kill things in ME2.

Agree/Disagree?

I agree with killing enemies is great, but the Prime example both (a) and ( are boring imo. It's great a couple times, but I always feel a little sad killing those big guys with such ease. They ought to be very hard to kill, and very dangerous opponents (not only tedious like the Praetorians). Stasis also sucks a little, one-shotting everything is cool a couple times, but gets old pretty soon.

Winning a hard fight is much more rewarding than killing so called powerful foes easily imo.

This

[Sparrow44]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Winning a hard fight is much more rewarding than killing so called powerful foes easily imo.

It would only be hard if you had no idea what to do, not all players are aware of the Stasis 'fall of death' and some wouldn't even dare trying to Charge a Collossus regardless if they knew about the AI's reaction.

Killing YMIR's are tedious to kill either way, Stasis without the bug is a very useful counter against them anyway. Creating an enemy AI that is both challenging and not frustrating is a difficult balance in most games, if ME3's Insanity achieves this then we might well lay this discussion to rest when the game comes out.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I agree with killing enemies is great, but the Prime example both (a) and ( are boring imo. It's great a couple times, but I always feel a little sad killing those big guys with such ease. They ought to be very hard to kill, and very dangerous opponents (not only tedious like the Praetorians). Stasis also sucks a little, one-shotting everything is cool a couple times, but gets old pretty soon.

Winning a hard fight is much more rewarding than killing so called powerful foes easily imo.

You have no other options in that fight. You can either kill it slowly from cover, or you can run to it and kill it quickly.
At least in the latter case, your Shep is the badass (s)he supposed to be, so it happens to be much more fun than the former option, for me at least.

As for Stasis, yes, the Fall of Death can be gamebreaking, but for me personally, if the YMIR was the last enemy standing, I would introduce it to the Fall any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I would kill it "the normal" way anyway, this Fall only saves time.

Winning a hard fight is not something ME2 offers, actually. I mean there is no need for sophisticated approach and strategy in any fight in the game. Some fights may be harder than the others, but that is usually because of the way enemies are positioned.

If ME3 can improve enemy AI and level design and boss design..yay for that!

Modifié par Kronner, 19 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Seeing the ME3 screencaps (dammit I wanted to be spoiler free...) there are enemies with jetpacks, so at least there's an indication that there may be un-chargeable enemies. Are there going to be a lot of them...? who knows...

Anyways, I think it's hard to talk about changing a specific class or power when there are so many outside factors that we don't know. The jetpack enemy is one thing, but if they're going to add some kind complex melee fighting, for instance, then that might affect close quarters combat in general, with or without changing Charge. I like the challenge of Charging into Harbinger and Scions because they have special close range attacks, so maybe the melee combat could be similar, at least on paper. Though in practice, I'm skeptical about how it's going to be implemented. I fear that if melee becomes like a minigame / quick-time event type of thing, it'll suck because it's a separate mechanic 'added' in instead of being 'integrated' with the system.

Regarding Charge, I think it relates to the bigger issue of how defensive powers got screwed with the global cooldown. What you get in Barrier/GSB/Fortification, is wasting 12 seconds of CD in exchange for being able to survive 2 seconds longer on Insanity. That's garbage. Charge and AA, however, have built-in offense so they're worth it. I like that ME2 is steered towards offense in that regard, but if that's the case, then why bother giving us powers with such minimal return? I would've either gotten rid of them/boost their protection or shorten their CD.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 19 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[Sparrow44]

The way bonus and loyalty powers worked is hit and miss for me, we got some nice powers and all but some of them should've been part of a particular class to begin with. Also looking at the numbers we got 3 shield powers (did we need that many?), 3 ammo powers which are a lazy implementation either way and 3 more only accessible by DLC not an impressive list IMO.

I think 12 seconds for any power is quite steep compared to the rest which are usually 3's or 6's, so I think they failed purely just by those cooldowns. All in all they're alright but I wouldn't mind if they are ditched for ME3 with some more exclusive abilities for the classes perhaps though I reckon they'll return anyway, just as long as it's not like ME1 where you could take (Super) Singularity as a bonus for any class.

Modifié par Sparroww, 19 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[rumination888]

Kronner wrote...
Hence the tweaking. Assault Armor is too good, yeah - can be fixed easily.

Too good compared to what?

Adrenaline Rush kills quicker.
Charge kills quicker.
Tactical Cloak gives more survivability.
Drone is worse vs. many mobs, better vs. few

[ExtremeOne]

Ahglock wrote...

I don't know what or if it should be fixed. But it doesn't seem right to me that 3 classes are at their optimum by spamming one power. Being able to struggle through the game using one power is one thing, but being at your best doesn't sit well with me. All of the classes can be played in a variety of ways, but you get through the levels better just with TA. I happen to like area pull on my vanguard, I strip defenses with a squadmate, pull, then charge in and point blank range floating foes. I think it is fun. But just charge spamming would have been quicker and easier.

  



You have a choice to Charge spam if you want to but to install more rules onto a single player game where who really cares what one does. Is wrong. I can half way understand this if it was a multi player game only . but I be dammed if I want my single player experienced governed by the rules of others. If I want to use certain powers only then I have that right. The system in Mass Effect 2 works fine. plus what is this the same ol nerf the Sh*t out of things because a few people hate it crap again. 

[Aumata]

rumination888 wrote...

Kronner wrote...
Hence the tweaking. Assault Armor is too good, yeah - can be fixed easily.

Too good compared to what?

Adrenaline Rush kills quicker.
Charge kills quicker.
Tactical Cloak gives more survivability.
Drone is worse vs. many mobs, better vs. few

TA can tank and thanks to a bug, restore companions skills.  Basically a Sentinel is a tank supportor and jack of trades.