21 réponses à ce sujet

[Eddie Fynn]

 Even if you have the dual weapon mastery talent, even with the 85% strength/dexterity bonus vs. an axe's 110% strength bonus, even with less base damage, daggers seem by far superior to any other weapon for dual wielding.  A dagger's swing time is about 1 second, a longsword's swing time is 1.4 seconds which means when comparing the two's damage for dps purposes you add on an additional 40% to the daggers damage thus trumping pretty much every other weapon out there significantly.  This applies even with haste or momentum.  So if you were dual wielding, why would you ever want to wield anything else besides daggers?

[Kelston]

Because there is a math thread that proves Axe+Dagger is better.

Quick summary of that thread: Your offhand speed affects your main hand attack speed so with a dagger in the offhand your "slower" axe actually ends up attacking faster than you would think. And you need to factor in chance to hit, which you will have more of via axe+dagger strength build.

That thread is here: http://social.biowar.../9/index/223777

Modifié par Kelston, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:58 .

[JamesX]

Because there is a thing called Armor.

Lets Say Armor value is 10. If your damage value is 8 you do 1 dmg. If your damage value is 13 you do 3 points. A 30% increase in weapon's damage rating is translated to 300% boost in actual damage.

Damage is not proportional to speed when armor is involved.

[Starhaus]

Mages can easily allow melee companions weapons to mostly ignore armor, though. Telekinetic damage as well as elemental damage buffs.

[Kelston]

Starhaus wrote...

Mages can easily allow melee companions weapons to mostly ignore armor, though. Telekinetic damage as well as elemental damage buffs.

Doesn't eliminate armor though and elemental damage buffs are static and based off the mage that cast it, not the rogue/warrior using it.

[Pyroclase]

Because you like the look of sword and axe or two swords? (which may pack more rune slots etc and have better bonuses in addition to the slots?)

[VeeVito]

Because it's an RPG and I like to have certain race/weapon combos.

[surrealitycheck]

Elemental buffs are better on daggers than others though, as they are static and per-hit are they not? Consequently they are a greater dps boost.



Unless they are normalised to weapon speed, which I strongly doubt.

[BeerLion]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Elemental buffs are better on daggers than others though, as they are static and per-hit are they not? Consequently they are a greater dps boost.

Unless they are normalised to weapon speed, which I strongly doubt.

No you would be correct.  Faster weapons would gain more of an advantage than slower weapons.  A hasted dual dagger user with lots of elemental enchants and then mage added fire/ice/telekinetic weapons would be sick.  A slow 2H user would not gain the same amount of DPS from a similair setup.

[Kelston]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Elemental buffs are better on daggers than others though, as they are static and per-hit are they not? Consequently they are a greater dps boost.

Unless they are normalised to weapon speed, which I strongly doubt.

The thing people are missing is the little tidbit that makes no sense but is in the game: Your main hand attack speed is affected by the speed of your offhand.

As a result, it would make sense to use an axe for the better base damage + better modifier.

[Sebbastar]

hm,, it's all about what looks cool,, two fairly large weapons look cool,, thats all,, atleast for me,, game is beatable either way..

[surrealitycheck]

It's affected, as I believe they are averaged - but the question is if that increase in base damage overcomes the nevertheless slower attack speed (although it is not as slow as initially thought).

[ITSSEXYTIME]

It's not like optimal efficiency matters at all in a single player game... I personally thought dual axe's looked pretty damn cool.

[surrealitycheck]

It may not matter TO YOU. It does, however, matter to other people.

[Kelston]

surrealitycheck wrote...

It's affected, as I believe they are averaged - but the question is if that increase in base damage overcomes the nevertheless slower attack speed (although it is not as slow as initially thought).

In the thread I linked, it showed that theoretically, dagger+dagger cunning build and axe+dagger str build are equal in damage output.

However, in practice, axe+dagger would end up pulling ahead because while a cunning build looks good on paper, that paper didn't factor in chance to hit. Cunning doesn't offer +hit chance while strength does. So in game, axe+dagger strength will pull ahead.

[surrealitycheck]

Are you factoring in elemental buffs?

[Feond]

I liked using two axes until i found a better sword and axe combo, I wish I had found starfang for my rogue but instead I found it with my mage character.

[Kelston]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Are you factoring in elemental buffs?

No, because the variables of party buffs and debuffs are endless. It did factor in grandmaster elemental runes, however.

But overall, the speed difference because of how it works makes it so that the axe modifier more than makes up the difference in slightly slower (very slightly, about 0.2 seconds slower).

[T0rin3]

The best answer is: Because daggers have low damage, and base damage is key for doing big backstab damage.

[CJohnJones]

JamesX wrote...

Because there is a thing called Armor.
Lets Say Armor value is 10. If your damage value is 8 you do 1 dmg. If your damage value is 13 you do 3 points. A 30% increase in weapon's damage rating is translated to 300% boost in actual damage.
Damage is not proportional to speed when armor is involved.

This actually speaks in favor of daggers, blunt weapons and to some extent, axes, since they penetrate armor much better than swords.

[Love-Buzz]

Kelston wrote...
However, in practice, axe+dagger would end up pulling ahead because while a cunning build looks good on paper, that paper didn't factor in chance to hit. Cunning doesn't offer +hit chance while strength does. So in game, axe+dagger strength will pull ahead.

What's basically been concluded in that thread is that no matter what build you take, you will never have it all:

- axe/dagger strength has very good dps, very high attack, the best armor, the lowest defense, and the least utility
- axe/dagger cunning has nearly the best dps, low attack, good armor, low defense, and very high ultility
- dagger/dagger cunning has the best dps, low attack, low armor, moderate defense, and the best utility
- dagger/dagger dex has good dps, the highest attack, low armor, insane defense, and moderate utility

Basically, you just pick what you want.  If you want more of a classic Rogue, probably go one of the high cunning builds.  If you want a Ninja that no one can touch, take the dex build.  If you want a great backstabber and already have another rogue (or don't care about utility), take the str build.

EDIT - this is assuming you are using the dex hotfix.  If you AREN'T, then dagger/dagger cunning has by far the highest dps.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[Togashi Mitsu]

surrealitycheck wrote...

It may not matter IN EASY MODE. It does, however, matter IN NIGHTMARE.

Fixed. Haha.