110 réponses à ce sujet

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...

I think that's a bit of a stretch.  Few, if any, of the other sci-fi shows which use worm holes have them as anything other than a short cut from one point in space to another. No time travel involved.

Stargate, Star Trek (all the series), Farscape - they all used wormholes to travel through time.

It's not just theoretically possible, it has to happen as far as known Science is concerned. Space-time is the fabric of the Universe. If you mess with one, you mess with the other. That's why gravity - something that distorts space - also distorts time.

The possibility of using Worm Holes to travel in time is no reason to dismiss them as the theory behind the relays as that's just one possibility (and I believe not one considered possible by modern Science). All you have to do is say that they can bend space and not time and you're sorted

I'm not dismissing wormholes, I was conjecturing my own methods.

However, as I said above, you can't bend space and leave time alone. Space-time doesn't work that way anymore.

[atheelogos]

Dave666 wrote...


I've been in a few debates about Relays and we've never been able to come to a proper concensus about how they work.

My understanding of how they work is this:

The ship arrives at the Relay, gives the Relay the destination and the ships Mass.

The Relay then creates both a Mass Free Corridor and a powerful Mass Effect Field around the ship and then catapults the ship to the destination.

The travel is instantaneous (or so close to it that it makes little difference), which means that the Relay must throw the Ship at tremendous speeds.

I could be wrong on this next part but its my take on it.

In space there are a lot of foreign objects, meteors, asteroids and various space debris, and since hitting those would be rather bad for the ship it makes sense to me that the Relays can communicate between each other, if travel is instantaneous then a signal between them could be also.

So Relay A sends to Relay B, Relay B says there's debris at x position and Relay A corrects for this, this to me would explain 'drift', depending on whether or not there were any debris in between then there would be more or less 'drift'.

Problems with this arise however when we introduce The Conduit.

The Conduit was basically a smaller version of a Mass Relay, however it seems to be extrordinarily accurate compared to normal Relays because had there been any drift then the Mako would have missed the Citadel entirely and what with old Newton being the Deadliest SOB in space the Mako would have kept going 'til it hit something.  There's also another problem with The Conduit, when the Mako is catapulted to its recieving relay it arrives inside of the Citadel, how did it manage to pass through solid matter and not splat against the side of the Citadel?

So how the hell do Relays work?

Are they simply fancy versions of catapults, or are they teleporters?

question 1"how did it manage to pass through solid matter and not splat against the side of the Citadel?"

question 2 "In space there are a lot of foreign objects, meteors, asteroids and
various space debris, and since hitting those would be rather bad for
the ship"

You answered your own questions
"The Relay then creates both a Mass Free Corridor" If the corridor is mass free then there is no mass to run into. That's also how a vanguard's charge works, thats how mass relays works, and that's how you could jump into the Citadel while it was closed.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

I think that's a bit of a stretch.  Few, if any, of the other sci-fi shows which use worm holes have them as anything other than a short cut from one point in space to another. No time travel involved.

Stargate, Star Trek (all the series), Farscape - they all used wormholes to travel through time.

Some times they use wormholes, or other methods, to travel in time but most of the time there is no time travel. The Enterprise didn't travel in time every time it went into Warp. Neither did the Millenium Falcon. Star Gates only travel in time if the wormhole is interfered with by a nearby Star.  B5 never travelled in time via Worm holes and I don't remember Farscape ever doing so either.

It's not just theoretically possible, it has to happen as far as known Science is concerned. Space-time is the fabric of the Universe. If you mess with one, you mess with the other. That's why gravity - something that distorts space - also distorts time.

The wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia....ole#Time_travel

discusses the subject.  The suggestion is that time travel via wormhole is only going to happen if you accelerate one end much faster than the other and there are theories that this is not possible and would actually cause the traveller to end up in an alternate dimension instead. Since mass relays are all stationary and since they clearly don't intend for the traveller to end up in an alternate dimension I think it's fine to postulate that no time travel need be involved.

Regards

Julian

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...

Some times they use wormholes, or other methods, to travel in time but most of the time there is no time travel. The Enterprise didn't travel in time every time it went into Warp. Neither did the Millenium Falcon. Star Gates only travel in time if the wormhole is interfered with by a nearby Star.  B5 never travelled in time via Worm holes and I don't remember Farscape ever doing so either.

I'm not going to debate faux-Science dreamt up for plot convenience that's been only loosely based on actual science.

I was pondering actual science, and bypassing space-time by entering the 5th dimension would allow for time travel and the instantaneous appearance of matter from one spot to another via a fold in space-time.

The wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia....ole#Time_travel

discusses the subject.  The suggestion is that time travel via wormhole is only going to happen if you accelerate one end much faster than the other and there are theories that this is not possible and would actually cause the traveller to end up in an alternate dimension instead. Since mass relays are all stationary and since they clearly don't intend for the traveller to end up in an alternate dimension I think it's fine to postulate that no time travel need be involved.

Regards

Julian

Time travel is involved because nobody ages.

Time subjectively slows down as you approach the speed of light, as the rest of the Universe ages at another rate outside. While it may not be the whole, "Looks like I traveled back to the old west" type of time travel, if you go fast enough to another solar system and then return to ours, you will have come back to a period where everyone you know is dead but you have aged relatively little.

Because this doesn't happen with the Mass Relays - nobody appears at the other edge of a Mass Relay some 5,000 years later (though it might make for an interesting plot device) - the Relays must be messing with both space and time.

If you messed with one but not the other, you might appear at your destination a living corpse, or your atoms would instantaneously be scattered across the entire length of the journey.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...
Time travel is involved because nobody ages.

Time subjectively slows down as you approach the speed of light, as the rest of the Universe ages at another rate outside. While it may not be the whole, "Looks like I traveled back to the old west" type of time travel, if you go fast enough to another solar system and then return to ours, you will have come back to a period where everyone you know is dead but you have aged relatively little.

Because this doesn't happen with the Mass Relays - nobody appears at the other edge of a Mass Relay some 5,000 years later (though it might make for an interesting plot device) - the Relays must be messing with both space and time.

If you messed with one but not the other, you might appear at your destination a living corpse, or your atoms would instantaneously be scattered across the entire length of the journey.

I disagree. That might apply to faster than light travel but if you are bending space to provide a short cut between two points in space then you don't have to travel particularly fast at all to get there. The length of the corridor can be extremely short meaning you could be travelling at a few miles an hour and still get from point A to B virtually instantaneously. The worm hole means that the distance you travel becomes shorter so the speed you need to get there doesn't have to be anywhere near fast enough to cause any noticeable time affects..

Theoretically, all your travel without relays would be much more likely to apply the affect you are describing. Except that, as far as I remember, time slows down for the observer as his relative velocity and mass increases. Mass is a vital factor in Einstein's equations so if you reduce mass to zero (which is how I  understand the relays to work) then wouldn't that avoid any time dilation?

Regards

Julian

[Naltair]

Interesting discussion we have here.

My own take on this is that the Mass Relays basically create a wormhole, the mass free corridor, allowing for instantaneous travel from Point A to Point B. Considering there are four types of Mass Relays there must be theoretical limits based on perhaps power consumption that determine their usage.

Briefly:

The first type is a primary relay, these can travel the “longest” distances in galactic space but have a fixed starting and ending point. You can travel massive distances but you always enter and leave the same two mass relays, a mated pair.

The second type is smaller and is omni-directional and can connect to any other mass relay in its more limited range but does not have a fixed exit point.

The third type is the Citadel which we know only connects to the Mass Relay in Dark Space, it could be the most powerful but that is speculation.

The fourth type is the Alpha Relay, the one destroyed in Arrival; I believe it is the second type in normal function but was capable of creating corridors that were usually reserved for the first type but also omni-directional.

I bring up these types to imply that the Mass Relays have a range probably based on power consumption. Sort of like the Stargates except as far as we know they are incapable of reaching other star systems, the farthest one being the mass relay in dark space. My theory is that when activated they create a wormhole that essentially curves space time to the point where two locations actually coincide for a split moment allowing the vehicle to pass from one location to another in a near instant. Momentum seems to be maintained which is why the Mako shoots out of the Conduit like catapult into the Citadel.

As far as drift, it seems that the mass relays are sophisticated enough to account for debris or objects in the vicinity of the mass relay and can deposit traveling objects a safe distance from possible debris or traffic. I make this assumption because it would make galactic travel messy with plenty of accidents and collisions otherwise. Plus we see a whole fleet travel through a mass relay in Mass Effect 1 quite easily, so I can only conclude that the mass relay makes calculations to account for incoming and outgoing objects.

This also accounts for why the Omega-4 Relay is so dangerous that capability has been disabled for all ships besides the Collectors/Reapers and so when they are deposited on the other side they probably crashed and died in debris. Even with the Reaper IFF the SR-2 Normandy nearly crashes anyway, which indirectly supports my idea that momentum is maintained.

In short my theory is that the mass relays create corridors in space-time essentially curving two points till they touch allowing for travel between those two points maintaining momentum of the object and accounting for objects on the exit so as to not have collisions. There is no worry for objects in between because no actual distance is traveled, the corridor has no mass and simply bends two points into one.

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...

I disagree. That might apply to faster than light travel but if you are bending space to provide a short cut between two points in space then you don't have to travel particularly fast at all to get there.

Okay, woh here...

If you appear instantaneously at another point in space, you are probably traveling faster than light.

Light travels at 3.8 x 10^8 m/s if I remember correctly. It takes some amount of time to pass over any length of distance, hence the "meters per second."

If you were to travel from the Sun to the Earth practically instantaneously, your speed would be Distance/Time. If that "Time" is anything less than 5 minutes, you are traveling faster than light.

The length of the corridor can be extremely short meaning you could be travelling at a few miles an hour and still get from point A to B virtually instantaneously.

This would be a subjective experience, not the objective measure of velocity. Your velocity could be 35mph until you entered the wormhole, at which point the wormhole accelerates you to some absurd amount until you reach another velocity, and then decelerates you an equal amount until you were back at 35mph coming out the other end.

The worm hole means that the distance you travel becomes shorter so the speed you need to get there doesn't have to be anywhere near fast enough to cause any noticeable time affects..

If the distance becomes shorter, time must become an equivalent amount of "shorter" to compensate if you expect to come out the other end "instantly" relative to the point of entry and alive. The very fact that you're using the word "instantly" when you describe wormhole travel means that time is messed with because it describes the time traveled.

Let's say you travel 100 miles in an hour. Veloctiy = 100mph

Now, you're telling me that only space is shortened - not time - when it comes to wormholes. So, when I find a wormhole along the same route that compresses the space between A and B to 50 miles, but not the time... I travel the distance of the wormhole over the same length of time. Velocity = 50mph. That's slower.

Now if the wormhole modifies both time and space, to where I travel the 50 mile journey through the wormhole in 1 minute, my Velocity during the trip is now 300mph. Keep in mind, if I traveled the 50 mile journey in 30 minutes, I would have a Velocity of 100mph because of the ratio of the original trip versus the wormhole trip is equal for both metrics (2:1).

As far as I'm aware, you cannot mess with spacial disances without messing with time.

Theoretically, all your travel without relays would be much more likely to apply the affect you are describing. Except that, as far as I remember, time slows down for the observer as his relative velocity and mass increases. Mass is a vital factor in Einstein's equations so if you reduce mass to zero (which is how I  understand the relays to work) then wouldn't that avoid any time dilation?

Regards

Julian

I'd have to dig up my equations again, but if you reduced the mass to 0, then you would reduce energy to 0 (E=m*c^2), and since time is a measurement of the ambient energy present, time would also be 0. That would also mean that Momentum was 0 (p = m*V), so you couldn't travel anywhere.

So the Mass Relays cannot operate under known Theories without exiting space-time.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

I disagree. That might apply to faster than light travel but if you are bending space to provide a short cut between two points in space then you don't have to travel particularly fast at all to get there.

Okay, woh here...

If you appear instantaneously at another point in space, you are probably traveling faster than light.

Scimal, you seem to be missing the entire point of a worm hole. I really don't follow your reasoning at all. If the distance from point A to point B is, say, 10 feet and you are travelling at 300 miles an hour you will travel from A to B in a fraction of a second. There will be no significant time dilation and no need to travel faster than light.

As far as modern science is concerned it's impossible to travel faster than light. Worm holes are the way round that limitation because they involve travelling through a different dimension which makes the distance that needs to be travelled shorter. That's the point of a worm hole, it doesn't make you faster, it makes the distance shorter. If you don't need to travel faster than light then there is no need to involve time travel.

I'm not a physicist but it looks like whoever created the Wiki I referred you to is well aware of all the science involved.

Here are some pertinent quotes from that Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia....an-light_travel

Faster-than-light travel
"The impossibility of faster-than-light relative speed only applies locally. Wormholes allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time. While traveling through a wormhole, subluminal (slower-than-light) speeds are used. If two points are connected by a wormhole, the time taken to traverse it would be less than the time it would take a light beam to make the journey if it took a path through the space outside the wormhole. However, a light beam traveling through the wormhole would always beat the traveler. As an analogy, running around to the opposite side of a mountain at maximum speed may take longer than walking through a tunnel crossing it."

http://en.wikipedia....ole#Time_travel

"The theory of general relativity predicts that if traversable wormholes exist, they could allow time travel.[2] This would be accomplished by accelerating one end of the wormhole to a high velocity relative to the other, and then sometime later bringing it back; relativistic time dilation would result in the accelerated wormhole mouth aging less than the stationary one as seen by an external observer..."


Notice how it says "could" not "must".

"It is thought that it may not be possible to convert a wormhole into a time machine in this manner; the predictions are made in the context of general relativity, but general relativity does not include quantum effects. Some analyses using the semiclassical approach to incorporating quantum effects into general relativity indicate that a feedback loop of virtual particles would circulate through the wormhole with ever-increasing intensity, destroying it before any information could be passed through it, in keeping with the chronology protection conjecture. This has been called into question by the suggestion that radiation would disperse after traveling through the wormhole, therefore preventing infinite accumulation."

It may well be plausible to suggest that worm holes in the Mass Effect universe are capable of Time Travel but it is equally plausible (and even sounds likely, from the above) that they do not.

Regards

Julian

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...
Scimal, you seem to be missing the entire point of a worm hole. I really don't follow your reasoning at all. If the distance from point A to point B is, say, 10 feet and you are travelling at 300 miles an hour you will travel from A to B in a fraction of a second. There will be no significant time dilation and no need to travel faster than light.

With you so far.

As far as modern science is concerned it's impossible to travel faster than light. Worm holes are the way round that limitation because they involve travelling through a different dimension which makes the distance that needs to be travelled shorter.

That's where you lose me.

I don't mind you saying wormholes travel through a different dimension - that's what I originally proposed, so we're pretty much in agreement on how Mass Relays would work, even if I don't call them wormholes.

Maybe I should just leave it at that.

That's the point of a worm hole, it doesn't make you faster, it makes the distance shorter.

I think my problem is that you're still trying to describe wormholes in terms of space-time. Distances don't matter when it comes to wormholes. There aren't any "distances" involved because "distance" ceases to be a metric outside of space-time. Just like traveling in 3-Dimensions isn't a big deal for you because it's inherent to your very existence, as opposed to a 2-Dimensional creature - something in higher dimensions wouldn't even notice the dimensions below it.

I'm not a physicist but it looks like whoever created the Wiki I referred you to is well aware of all the science involved.

Here are some pertinent quotes from that Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia....an-light_travel

Faster-than-light travel
"The impossibility of faster-than-light relative speed only applies locally. Wormholes allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time. While traveling through a wormhole, subluminal (slower-than-light) speeds are used. If two points are connected by a wormhole, the time taken to traverse it would be less than the time it would take a light beam to make the journey if it took a path through the space outside the wormhole. However, a light beam traveling through the wormhole would always beat the traveler. As an analogy, running around to the opposite side of a mountain at maximum speed may take longer than walking through a tunnel crossing it."

The key word there is "Time" - not distance. Wormholes bypass space-time (aka - ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded) and then re-enter it, modifying the subjective time taken but not the objective distance traveled.

The analogy is a poor one, and the author of this paragraph isn't specific enough to be much use, though. This is why I don't generally click on Wiki links. They don't generally do much to clarify an issue, so much as convolute it with poor examples and superficial examinations.

http://en.wikipedia....ole#Time_travel

"The theory of general relativity predicts that if traversable wormholes exist, they could allow time travel.[2] This would be accomplished by accelerating one end of the wormhole to a high velocity relative to the other, and then sometime later bringing it back; relativistic time dilation would result in the accelerated wormhole mouth aging less than the stationary one as seen by an external observer..."


Notice how it says "could" not "must".

That's a colloquial interpretation, and not a scientific assertation.

If the wormholes are accelerating, time is changing. Acceleration is measured in an increase of distance relative to the square of time (meters/second^2). So unless the distance between two points changes (which isn't mentioned anywhere so far), time must change.

It's also entirely Theoretical, since only quantum mechanics has - so far - shaken Relativity. We have no idea what happens with actual wormholes because we've never seen, gone through, or created one.

They're a theoretical occurrence which bypasses Relativity, and Relativity describes space-time on the macro scale.

It may well be plausible to suggest that worm holes in the Mass Effect universe are capable of Time Travel but it is equally plausible (and even sounds likely, from the above) that they do not.

Regards

Julian

Wormholes modify time. That's never been in question - even among theorists - as far as I'm aware.

Whether or not you can go back to the Old West via wormholes is something significantly different from modifying time. Since time encapsulates space, you can't modify time without modifying space - even if it's just bending space to suit the modification in time.

I'm pretty sure you're just misinterpreting the wiki articles because they're designed to be a reference - not a teaching source.

If an actual Physicist comes along and corrects me, though, I'll more than happily modify my thinking. Until then, I don't see why the debate has to continue. We both agree on a rough method for Mass Relay operation, even if we label it and understand it differently.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...
Wormholes modify time. That's never been in question - even among theorists - as far as I'm aware.

This is the root of our disagreement, I think. I have never seen any reference to the idea that Worm Holes must modify time in order to work and I've seen a lot of references to worm holes in both Sci-Fi and non Sci Fi sources.

If the wiki I linked to isn't Scientific enough then, by all means, find a link with more authoriy which contradicts it but, as it stands, that Wiki is quite clear that Time Travel is not an inherent part of worm holes. It merely states that it may be possible to cause time travel by manipulating the velocity of one end of the worm hole relative to the other (something which doesn't happen in ME) which implies that time travel is not a factor otherwise.

Even if time travel is a necessity of worm hole theory according to our current understanding of Science it is easy enough, given that Mass Effect is science fiction, to just invent some other factor that modern science doesn't know about and say that, in the ME universe, the worm holes don't modify time, or cannot be used to modify time to allow anything other than the existence of the worm hole. It can't enable deliberate and directed travel into the past or future. Problem solved

Regards

Julian

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...

This is the root of our disagreement, I think. I have never seen any reference to the idea that Worm Holes must modify time in order to work and I've seen a lot of references to worm holes in both Sci-Fi and non Sci Fi sources.

It's inherent. Assumed. Part of the definition.

You can't have one without the other.

If the wiki I linked to isn't Scientific enough then, by all means, find a link with more authoriy which contradicts it but, as it stands, that Wiki is quite clear that Time Travel is not an inherent part of worm holes. It merely states that it may be possible to cause time travel by manipulating the velocity of one end of the worm hole relative to the other (something which doesn't happen in ME) which implies that time travel is not a factor otherwise.

*sigh* Like I said in my previous post, Time Travel and Modifying Time are two different (but related) things.

The type of time travel you're talking about, going backwards or forwards, is possible via wormholes.

Wormholes - any wormhole - innately modifies time, either bypassing, decelerating or accelerating Time.

Here's my link: http://curious.astro....php?number=694
Written by a post-doc at Caltech.

Here's an excerpt (emphasis NOT mine): "Wormholes are a popular subject because if real they could allow the
possibility of time travel since they are shortcuts in space AND time."

Iif wormholes modify space (a distance), they must modify time. That's why the fabric of space is called "spacetime." They are interwoven.

Even if time travel is a necessity of worm hole theory according to our current understanding of Science it is easy enough, given that Mass Effect is science fiction, to just invent some other factor that modern science doesn't know about and say that, in the ME universe, the worm holes don't modify time, or cannot be used to modify time to allow anything other than the existence of the worm hole. It can't enable deliberate and directed travel into the past or future. Problem solved

Regards

Julian

I already said a while back that I'm not going to debate faux-Science used by Sci-Fi IPs. In Sci-Fi, you can pretty much make-up anything you want, but most are based (at least loosely) off of actual Science.

The actual Science says that wormholes modify spacetime, and because the two are interwoven, modifying space also means modifying time.

That's all I'm saying. If you asked me honestly, I'd say that we probably have the same visuals in our heads, but I just interpret it differently because of previous information.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...
I already said a while back that I'm not going to debate faux-Science used by Sci-Fi IPs. In Sci-Fi, you can pretty much make-up anything you want, but most are based (at least loosely) off of actual Science.

The actual Science says that wormholes modify spacetime, and because the two are interwoven, modifying space also means modifying time.

That's all I'm saying. If you asked me honestly, I'd say that we probably have the same visuals in our heads, but I just interpret it differently because of previous information.

You may not want to debate the faux-Science but since that is the entire point of this thread and the only reason I'm having this discussion I think that's a bit of an unfair position to take

The OP wanted a plausible explanation for the working of the Mass Relays. A fictional invention for a fictional computer game.

I suggested that worm holes not only fit the description of the Codex exactly (a corridor through space time) but also fix the OP's main issue which was that all the matter that would have provided an obstruction to ships travelling at speed across the distances involved would be bypassed by the use of a worm hole.

You disagreed that Worm Holes were a plausible explanation stating:

"Bouncing around the 5th dimension allows re-entry into any point in space-time, bypassing any particles that exist in space-time since you're effectively outside it. I doubt that's how the Relays work, though, since the Reapers would be capable of time travel to any era in which the Relays exist."


Now, I can accept that, in order to bend spacetime to bring point A together with point B so that they can be accessed through a worm hole via a 5th dimension, you have to modify time as well as space as they are both, as you say, an integral whole. I'm far from convinced that this is necessary and the link you link to doesn't say that but I'm happy to stipulate it, if it will progress this discussion.

That form of manipulation, however, is entirely different to your objection to wormholes which kicked off this discussion. You objected on the grounds that the use of worm holes implies the ability to travel in time. This would, of course, lead to major problems with the plot of the game as the Reapers strategy could be very different if they had the technology to time travel at will.

Both the Wiki and your own link explicitly state that it is far from clear whether wormholes could be used to travel in time in this way. To use an offshoot of your own link:

http://curious.astro....php?number=270

"[time travel] may be [possible], it may not be. The laws of physics that we know about don't seem to forbid it. The easiest way to do it would be with a worm-hole, a sort of "short cut" from one part of the universe to another. There are ways (in principle) of creating a worm-hole with one mouth in the present and one mouth in the past, so that if you went through it, you would be travelling back into the past. There are reasons to believe, however, that such a wormhole would be unstable. The matter is still very undecided. In any case, you would not be able to go back and change recorded history, since everything you do in the past must be consistent with the state of things in the future."

It seems to me that this is totally consistent with the original Wiki. In that the way to create one end in the past is to use the acceleration of one end to a different velocity to the other which is mentioned in the Wiki. This is something that does not apply to the relays as the relays are not travelling at different velocities to each other. Both sources cite that that there are scientific theories indicating that this might not be possible because such a worm hole would not be stable.

So I submit, that worm holes are still an entirely plausible explanation for the Mass Relays despite your earlier objection.

Regards

Julian

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...
Now, I can accept that, in order to bend spacetime to bring point A together with point B so that they can be accessed through a worm hole via a 5th dimension, you have to modify time as well as space as they are both, as you say, an integral whole. I'm far from convinced that this is necessary and the link you link to doesn't say that but I'm happy to stipulate it, if it will progress this discussion.

You cannot say that two things are interconnected so as to be practically inseparable and then believe one can be modified without the other. It is a basic fault of logic. A fundamental flaw. The most concise definition of wrong. 

You eat bread without eating flour. You cannot see without light. You cannot hear without density.

  You cannot shortcut space without shortcutting time.  This is not an "either, or" debate here. All that's in debate is the magnitude of time manipulation (which is why I said that "Time Travel" to the past and appearing instantly between points were different, but related).

That is why we call it spacetime. A single word. A single idea. We exist in 4-Axis: XYZ and (t). Width, Height, Length, and Time. If you do not believe that space and time are interwoven on a level so intimate it would make the Nuns in Rome quiver, then the clock you are using is a lie. It is measuring nothing.

The discussion cannot progress until you understand that.

Also, it would be a good idea to re-read the paragraph you quoted from the Cornell site. It doesn't say what you think it does.

Modifié par Scimal, 19 avril 2011 - 03:06 .

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...

Thrombin wrote...
Now, I can accept that, in order to bend spacetime to bring point A together with point B so that they can be accessed through a worm hole via a 5th dimension, you have to modify time as well as space as they are both, as you say, an integral whole. I'm far from convinced that this is necessary and the link you link to doesn't say that but I'm happy to stipulate it, if it will progress this discussion.

You cannot say that two things are interconnected so as to be practically inseparable and then believe one can be modified without the other. It is a basic fault of logic. A fundamental flaw. The most concise definition of wrong.

I already stipulated this so we could move past it. Since it doesn't affect my argument in any way I fail to see why we need to discuss this particular aspect further.

Just to explain why I don't necessarily take this on faith, however:

Imagine a hemi-sphere. Imagine a world where someone is only aware of one dimension which is basically backwards and forwards around the circumference of the base of the hemi-sphere. By travelling in a hitherto unknown dimension it is entirely possible to take a shortcut through the center of the base of the hemisphere and, thus get to the other side in less distance than would otherwise be the case.

At no time, however, did you have to be aware of the existence of the up/down dimension or alter it in anyway in order to take advantage of that shortcut.  If you need to manipulate the hemisphere to reduce the distance further you could stretch out the plane upon which the base of the hemi-sphere is standing applying a force along one axis only. This would elongate the bottom of the hemisphere making the shortcut through it that much smaller but, still, at no time did you need to apply any pressure in the up or down direction despite the fact that this direction was an integral part of the whole.

That's why I don't accept the argument that just because we are manipulating spacetime we must necessarily manipulate the time part in order to achieve a worm hole. It may be the case that you have to but I don't see that it necessarily follows.

Also, it would be a good idea to re-read the paragraph you quoted from the Cornell site. It doesn't say what you think it does.

That's not helpful. If you think I'm misinterpreting something say what you think I'm misinterpreting. It seems perfectly clear to me, not to mention in accordance with the other references that I've read.

In any case, why do you want to get side-tracked by all these irrelevancies?

The only question that we need to answer is whether the Reapers being capable of creating worm holes would necessitate their ability to deliberately travel in time to any point during the lifetime of the relays. Which was your original objection. If the answer is no then we've finished our discussion and worm holes can be a valid explanation for the relays.

If the answer is yes then please explain how that can be reconciled with the previous quotes.

Regards

Julian

Modifié par Thrombin, 19 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[BWpimper]

What does the Vanguard Charge power allow you to do? Phase through solid matter, therefore mass effect fields (such as used in the Relays) somehow allow you to phase through matter when you are in transit between relays.
Unless phasing through objects using Charge is just a glitch, in which case this argument is totally useless.

[Dave666]

BWpimper wrote...

What does the Vanguard Charge power allow you to do? Phase through solid matter, therefore mass effect fields (such as used in the Relays) somehow allow you to phase through matter when you are in transit between relays.
Unless phasing through objects using Charge is just a glitch, in which case this argument is totally useless.

I'm hesitant to accept that as evidence to be honest, or we also have to accept that Mass Effect Fields somehow allow one to control minds (Dominate).

[Dave666]

Arcian wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

BWpimper wrote...

What does the Vanguard Charge power allow you to do? Phase through solid matter, therefore mass effect fields (such as used in the Relays) somehow allow you to phase through matter when you are in transit between relays.
Unless phasing through objects using Charge is just a glitch, in which case this argument is totally useless.

I'm hesitant to accept that as evidence to be honest, or we also have to accept that Mass Effect Fields somehow allow one to control minds (Dominate).

I thought dominate was pretty much canon, that's what Morinth does to her victims (and Shepard, if he somehow lacks the morality to withstand it :S)

From a gameplay perspective its a lot of fun and a useful ability.

From a lore perspective it makes bugger all sense.

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...

Imagine a hemi-sphere. Imagine a world where someone is only aware of one dimension which is basically backwards and forwards around the circumference of the base of the hemi-sphere.

Yes, they'd see it as an endless straight line. A single axis. However, you hemisphere example is funky because a hemisphere is already three-dimensional.

By travelling in a hitherto unknown dimension it is entirely possible to take a shortcut through the center of the hemisphere and, thus get to the other side in less distance than would otherwise be the case.

Circumference = pi*r^2
Diameter = r^2

Yes, the diameter would be a shorter route if the two points were on opposite sides of the circular plane. With you.

At no time, however, did you have to be aware of the existence of the up/down dimension or alter it in anyway in order to take advantage of that shortcut.

I wouldn't call it the "up/down dimension," but correct... to take advantage of another axis, you wouldn't have to alter it.

You do not have to modify the circular plane in order to travel the diameter, since the circumference has stayed the same. With you so far.

If you need to manipulate the hemisphere to reduce the distance further you could stretch out the plane upon which the base of the hemi-sphere is standing applying a force along one axis only.

... and you've lost me.

A circular plane is a two-dimensional representation of what you've described so far. Should you make the circular plane into an oval by stretching it or squeezing it (the overall shape would be the same, regardless), and assuming that nothing is created or lost, you change the coordinates of both dimensions encapsulated by the ovoid.

An easier visulation might be something like going from this: O to this: ()  (and imagining that the area must remain constant)

You are losing X-coordinates, but gaining Y-coordinates. If you were to do the reverse, going from () to O you would gain X-coordinates, but lose Y-coordinates.

You cannot modify one without modifying the other.

This would elongate the bottom of the hemisphere making the shortcut through it that much smaller but, still, at no time did you need to apply any pressure in the up or down direction despite the fact that this direction was an integral part of the whole.

Stretching the one applies pressure to the other. Stretching the other applies pressure to the one. They are equal and opposite.

If you don't believe me take a square towel and stretch two of the opposing corners away from each other. You'll notice that the two corners you're not stretching come closer - as you say. You are not, as you say, pushing them towards each other in any way ("applying pressure"). However, that doesn't mean they are unaffected.

You cannot do something to one axis and leave the other unaffected. Modifying one, in any way, modifies the other.

That's why I don't accept the argument that just because we are manipulating spacetime we must necessarily manipulate the time part in order to achieve a worm hole. It may be the case that you have to but I don't see that it necessarily follows.

You are thinking incorrrectly, then. You started out in a poor position by envisioning a hemisphere when all you needed was a line. Then you added a bridge - which was fine - but described it as the "up/dimension" when a two-dimension universe doesn't have an up or down. You are doing this because you are a three-dimension being and are used to seeing things in three-dimensions.

I recommend starting out simpler. Make your first axis - a line. Make your second axis - a coordinate system emerges.

Now make a shape in that coordinate system - square, circle, octagon - doesn't matter. Now pretend that the area of that shape has to stay the same. A square is the easiest example here, because you can do it by hand. Now manipulate one of the axis with the constraint that the area must stay the same.

The coordinates of the other axis will change to compensate.

That's not helpful. If you think I'm misinterpreting something say what you think I'm misinterpreting. It seems perfectly clear to me, not to mention in accordance with the other references that I've read.

The paragraph you quoted basically said, "If you want to time-travel, wormholes are the way to go." It didn't, in any way, imply that wormholes manipulated distance and not time.

The only question that we need to answer is whether the Reapers being capable of creating worm holes would necessitate their ability to deliberately travel in time to any point during the lifetime of the relays. Which was your original objection. If the answer is no then we've finished our discussion and worm holes can be a valid explanation for the relays.

Having the capability does not necessitate that capability's use. Never has, never will.

Depending on your belief about the Universe, traveling backwards in time is fruitless since you can't change the past, or traveling backwards in time merely plops you into another Universe where what you want to change has already occurred. The other option, the one I thought the most obvious plot hole, is a Universe which accomdates changes to the past - so that you could change things in your own Universe - leading to a giant, "Why don't they just kill Shepard before he's born?" enigma.

But, otherwise, yes. If you can create wormholes, theoretically, you should be able to travel through time. Wormholes connect two points in spacetime. What's the difference between a point 0 years and 5,000 lightyears away or a point 5,000 years and 0 lightyears away? Equal (and opposite?) forces at work.

Modifié par Scimal, 19 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[didymos1120]

BWpimper wrote...
Unless phasing through objects using Charge is just a glitch, in which case this argument is totally useless.

It more like a convenience thing, for both devs and players.  You can only "phase" in certain conditions where you're dealing with partial obstructions.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...
... and you've lost me.

A circular plane is a two-dimensional representation of what you've described so far. Should you make the circular plane into an oval by stretching it or squeezing it (the overall shape would be the same, regardless), and assuming that nothing is created or lost, you change the coordinates of both dimensions encapsulated by the ovoid.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't disagree with you but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

I know the area is the same on the flat plane. The point is that the analogy manipulates the hemisphere in such a way that the distance between the two points I want to travel between becomes smaller if I were to travel in this 'new' direction but I don't have to apply any pressure in the  up/down direction in order to achieve this even though that dimension is an integral part of the object that I am actually dealing with. I am using the up/down dimension as my analogy of the Time dimension.  

Probably a more appropriate analogy would be if I just put my hands on either side of the base of a squashy hemisphere. One hand pushing at point A on the circumference and one pushing at poing B. If I push my fingers together I can essentially bisect the area of the base into two bulbs. This is my three dimensional analogy to the five dimensional warping of spacetime that I believe is happening with worm holes. The distance between A and B is now almost negligible in the 'new' direction but would still be the same for someone limited to the original circumference dimension.

However, at no time did I need to apply pressure in the up/down dimension. I'm just interested in what I'm doing in the two dimensional space. I'm sure the topology of the hemisphere will be doing all sorts of interesting things because of the pressure I'm applying but I'm not doing anything directly to manipulate that other dimension. It's an integral part of the continuum that I am manipulating but I don't have to have knowledge of that dimension or how to influence it to achieve the 'wormhole' affect. 
 
That's what I mean when I say that time manipulation doesn't necessarily need to be involved. The analogy is supposed to demonstrate that just because I  have to manipulate several dimensions of a multi-dimensional object to get the affect I'm after, I don't necessarily have to modify every dimension of that object just because that object possesses those dimensions.

Depending on your belief about the Universe, traveling backwards in time is fruitless since you can't change the past, or traveling backwards in time merely plops you into another Universe where what you want to change has already occurred. The other option, the one I thought the most obvious plot hole, is a Universe which accomdates changes to the past - so that you could change things in your own Universe - leading to a giant, "Why don't they just kill Shepard before he's born?" enigma.

But that's my whole point. I believe we've established that it's perfectly possible (if not probable) to suggest that worm holes are too unstable to function if they travel in time. Even if they can allow travel in time, it's highly likely that it's not possible to change past events anyway. In which case we've come up with several entirely plausible reasons, based on legitimate science, for why the relays can be worm holes without leading to the type of plot hole you describe.

Which is all I was trying to establish

Regards

Julian

[Scimal]

Thrombin wrote...


Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't disagree with you but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

You're not making it easy. You're not showing any math to backup your claims, you're not using proper terminology in favor of whatever has significance to you (I pretty much have to derive whatever you mean each time you say "up/down dimension" or "new direction"), you haven't addressed a single one of my mathematical examples, and you haven't simplified your analogies or restrained yourself to the agreed upon hypothetical of spacetime = space + time.

You are just bowling forward, and no matter what I do, you come up with the most bizarre explanations to accomodate my counterpoint.
 

The analogy is supposed to demonstrate that just because I  have to manipulate several dimensions of a multi-dimensional object to get the affect I'm after, I don't necessarily have to modify every dimension of that object just because that object possesses those dimensions.

Then it's a failed analogy.

You manipulated every single dimension that you gave to the hemisphere in your analogy by creating two bulbs from the joining of A and B. As you squeezed them together, the singular hemipshere retained its total volume, but changed its width/length/depth to accomodate the displaced portion of itself - and formed your "two bulbs."

You didn't consciously give it more than 3 dimensions, so you couldn't affect more than 3.

But that's my whole point. I believe we've established that it's perfectly possible (if not probable) to suggest that worm holes are too unstable to function if they travel in time.

It's as well established as the peanut-eating habits of Unicorns.

No more, no less.

Even if they can allow travel in time, it's highly likely that it's not possible to change past events anyway.

What're you basing this on? I said it was one possibility - and not the most likely one, because nothing we've discovered has turned up a "most likely" scenario for traveling back in time.

In which case we've come up with several entirely plausible reasons...

Which you haven't listed... convenient.

...based on legitimate science...

Well, my bit was. I didn't see a single solitary equation from you, and the paragraphs you quoted from other websites never supported your point in the first place. 

...for why the relays can be worm holes without leading to the type of plot hole you describe.

Yeah, there are two reasons:

1) They do use wormholes but it's impossible to change the past, so the Reapers don't find a use traveling to the past.

2) They don't use wormholes.

Take your pick. I don't particularly care which one. For my part, I'm done. Your analogies have errors in their most basic assumptions - not to mention your seeming inability to describe things in understandable terms when dealing with the veritable mine field of confusion that is physics, you can't describe your points mathematically, you don't even take the courtesy to address my mathematical evidence, and you insult me time and time again by imbuing what I've taken pains to say precisely with additional meanings or significance.

Get back to me when you've bought a Calculus-based Physics textbook, and we can pick it up from there.

[Bookman230]

The topic title sounds like a bad comedian. Or the Insane Clown Posse.

"******* Mass relays, how do they work?"

That's all I have to say.

[Dave666]

Bookman230 wrote...

The topic title sounds like a bad comedian. Or the Insane Clown Posse.

"******* Mass relays, how do they work?"

That's all I have to say.

Thank you, thank you very much.  Without your helpful contribution to this topic I fear we would all be lost.

[didymos1120]

Bookman230 wrote...
 Or the Insane Clown Posse.

Gee...ya think?