110 réponses à ce sujet

[IntrepidProdigy]

Think of the Vanguard's charge, and how you can phase through objects when surrounded by the biotic energy. Probably works in relation to that.

[Avalon Aurora]

IntrepidProdigy wrote...

Think of the Vanguard's charge, and how you can phase through objects when surrounded by the biotic energy. Probably works in relation to that.

'ed

Although you probably won't believe I thought if it before seeing that post.

My best guess is that the mass relay alters the mass and energy state to your ship compared to the corridor so that your ship no longer has the mass or energy reactions with mass or energy within the corridor. It doesn't actually move any particles or energy within the corridor, only alters the state of space within the corridor so that the rules of E=MCsquared is all messed up and the speed of light behaves differently. Your ship is given a similar altered state as it enters the corridor so that it reacts with the corridor itself and is slingshotted along the corridor with an effect similar to a giant railgun, only the ship's mass and energy doesn't interact with any mass or energy within the formed corridor.

Ez0 is essential to this process, stupidly huge amounts of Ez0.

The Mass Relays likely maintain tight-beam areas of the corridors, usually too small to transit ships through, to maintain a basic record of nearby mass relays they have a relatively clear path to, in order to avoid debris with Ez0 in it which would cause wonky effects when they try to create the slingshot zone.

[Admoniter]

I'm honestly not sure if charge should be used as an example of how phasing through things is a possible for mass relays. And by that I mean look at charge it functions how I imagine relays function. But at the same time it doesn't, the two relays aline with one another and create the mass free corridor. But clearly that is not the case with charge; because Shep when charging somehow performs both the role of one of the relays and the object catapulted by said relay. You can make the argument the chargee acts as the second relay in the pair but from where I stand it seems like Shep performs all three of the roles involved by his/herself.

[Thrombin]

Scimal wrote...
Well, my bit was. I didn't see a single solitary equation from you, and the paragraphs you quoted from other websites never supported your point in the first place. 

...for why the relays can be worm holes without leading to the type of plot hole you describe.

Yeah, there are two reasons:

1) They do use wormholes but it's impossible to change the past, so the Reapers don't find a use traveling to the past.

2) They don't use wormholes.

Take your pick. I don't particularly care which one. For my part, I'm done. Your analogies have errors in their most basic assumptions - not to mention your seeming inability to describe things in understandable terms when dealing with the veritable mine field of confusion that is physics, you can't describe your points mathematically, you don't even take the courtesy to address my mathematical evidence, and you insult me time and time again by imbuing what I've taken pains to say precisely with additional meanings or significance.

Get back to me when you've bought a Calculus-based Physics textbook, and we can pick it up from there.

Look, I'm sorry if I've upset you but I'm not a physicist or a mathematician and have never pretended to be so I fail to see any reason why you should expect me to be using mathematics to explain things or understand your mathematics in return.

I certainly wasn't intending to be insulting.

I tried to explain, using analogy, why I don't follow your reasoning that in order to use a different dimension to shorten the distance travelled between two points it necessarily require manipulation of another dimension just because that other dimension exists as part of the whole. I still believe I did that, but never mind, I'm not really paritcularly invested in the answer to that one either way.

I may not have progressed past A level physics but I am still quite capable of English comprehension and, in my opinion, the links that I pointed out as well as the links that you pointed out both indicate that physicists are unsure whether worm holes that travel in time can ever be stable and seem quite categorical in saying that even if they could do so you wouldn't be able to change the past.

The only thing you need for sci-fi is scientific plausibility. As far as I'm concerned, all the links I've read establish that plausibility for the worm hole solution and that's good enough for me. YMMV.

Regards

Julian

[Thrombin]

Admoniter wrote...

I'm honestly not sure if charge should be used as an example of how phasing through things is a possible for mass relays. And by that I mean look at charge it functions how I imagine relays function. But at the same time it doesn't, the two relays aline with one another and create the mass free corridor. But clearly that is not the case with charge; because Shep when charging somehow performs both the role of one of the relays and the object catapulted by said relay. You can make the argument the chargee acts as the second relay in the pair but from where I stand it seems like Shep performs all three of the roles involved by his/herself.

I didn't think the charge actually phases anyway, does it?  I've only ever been able to charge a target that I had line of sight to. I just saw it as travelling very fast rather than through things?

[dreman9999]

Is not a go any where portal device it's a two way door, it alway opens to one place and that place goes to the place you came from but they are relays that go to multiple locations. The way they move object though are based on two common powers used by biotics:Lift/pull and push. The engine place a mass effect feild on the object, lower it gravity feild and density and the arcs generates a intense push force. The object gets pushed to the next relay that catches that object with it's own mass effect feild. FTL work the same way but they can't generate the same intensity of the push force of a relay

[didymos1120]

IntrepidProdigy wrote...

Think of the Vanguard's charge, and how you can phase through objects when surrounded by the biotic energy. Probably works in relation to that.

No you can't.  Not remotely consistently.  It only occurs in certain circumstances (when the path is only partially obstructed by some inanimate object, and even then, only up to a point), and is almost certainly about making life simpler for the devs (and as side-effect, for us).  Besides which,  extrapolating lore from how biotic powers work in gameplay is a dubious proposition at best.

[Almostfaceman]

Scimal wrote...

Thrombin wrote...


Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't disagree with you but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

You're not making it easy. You're not showing any math to backup your claims, you're not using proper terminology in favor of whatever has significance to you (I pretty much have to derive whatever you mean each time you say "up/down dimension" or "new direction"), you haven't addressed a single one of my mathematical examples, and you haven't simplified your analogies or restrained yourself to the agreed upon hypothetical of spacetime = space + time.

You are just bowling forward, and no matter what I do, you come up with the most bizarre explanations to accomodate my counterpoint.
 

The analogy is supposed to demonstrate that just because I  have to manipulate several dimensions of a multi-dimensional object to get the affect I'm after, I don't necessarily have to modify every dimension of that object just because that object possesses those dimensions.

Then it's a failed analogy.

You manipulated every single dimension that you gave to the hemisphere in your analogy by creating two bulbs from the joining of A and B. As you squeezed them together, the singular hemipshere retained its total volume, but changed its width/length/depth to accomodate the displaced portion of itself - and formed your "two bulbs."

You didn't consciously give it more than 3 dimensions, so you couldn't affect more than 3.

But that's my whole point. I believe we've established that it's perfectly possible (if not probable) to suggest that worm holes are too unstable to function if they travel in time.

It's as well established as the peanut-eating habits of Unicorns.

No more, no less.

Even if they can allow travel in time, it's highly likely that it's not possible to change past events anyway.

What're you basing this on? I said it was one possibility - and not the most likely one, because nothing we've discovered has turned up a "most likely" scenario for traveling back in time.

In which case we've come up with several entirely plausible reasons...

Which you haven't listed... convenient.

...based on legitimate science...

Well, my bit was. I didn't see a single solitary equation from you, and the paragraphs you quoted from other websites never supported your point in the first place. 

...for why the relays can be worm holes without leading to the type of plot hole you describe.

Yeah, there are two reasons:

1) They do use wormholes but it's impossible to change the past, so the Reapers don't find a use traveling to the past.

2) They don't use wormholes.

Take your pick. I don't particularly care which one. For my part, I'm done. Your analogies have errors in their most basic assumptions - not to mention your seeming inability to describe things in understandable terms when dealing with the veritable mine field of confusion that is physics, you can't describe your points mathematically, you don't even take the courtesy to address my mathematical evidence, and you insult me time and time again by imbuing what I've taken pains to say precisely with additional meanings or significance.

Get back to me when you've bought a Calculus-based Physics textbook, and we can pick it up from there.

Nerd.
Rage.

Dude hasn't insulted you if anything he's gone out of his way to be polite, which is more than can be said for you at this point and more than can be said for most of the people goofing around here.

Chill the flock out - make your angry face in the mirror and learn to laugh at it or something.

[Admoniter]

Thrombin wrote...
I didn't think the charge actually phases anyway, does it?  I've only ever been able to charge a target that I had line of sight to. I just saw it as travelling very fast rather than through things?

You can phase through the various chest high walls littered around every level.

[didymos1120]

Admoniter wrote...

You can phase through the various chest high walls littered around every level.

And they're pretty much the only thing you can phase through (sometimes, the edges of doors/walls, but only if you're mostly clear of them).  Why? Because otherwise Charge would be really inconvenient to use and more work for the programmers.

ETA: Oh, and BTW, the way Charge is implemented, Shep actually just vanishes then reappears just before he/she hits the target.  Viewed in flycam mode, it looks like teleportation.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Talveton]

Avalon Aurora wrote...

My best guess is that the mass relay alters the mass and energy state to your ship compared to the corridor so that your ship no longer has the mass or energy reactions with mass or energy within the corridor. It doesn't actually move any particles or energy within the corridor, only alters the state of space within the corridor so that the rules of E=MCsquared is all messed up and the speed of light behaves differently. Your ship is given a similar altered state as it enters the corridor so that it reacts with the corridor itself and is slingshotted along the corridor with an effect similar to a giant railgun, only the ship's mass and energy doesn't interact with any mass or energy within the formed corridor.

This is more or less how I see Mass Relays working, too, based on the information we have been given in the codex. A corridor where the speed of light, the ultimate speed limit, has been mysteriously altered, to allow exceptionally high speeds.

However, I don't think Vanguard's Charge works the same way, as you need a mass relay in both ends to make the corridor, but with charge you just use biotics to sling yourself towards your target. I doubt any "mass-free corridors" are created in Charge, as you don't need "faster-than-light" velocities in such short distances.