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[Ryzaki]

Are Anders Rivalry and Friendship love scenes supposed to be exactly the same? It's...kind of jarring on the rivalry mace and doesn't seem to fit with the rest of their relationship. It goes from "I hate you!" from Anders to "I want you beside me UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE." with Hawke in about 2 scenes.

Is that supposed to happen?  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 12:51 .

[autumnyte]

I thought that was incredibly strange too, and actually had to bail from the Rivalmance for that reason. The scene was just too tender and loving for a dude who said he didn't know whether to kiss you or kill you not long ago.

Could it possibly be bugged, I wonder?

[ashyraine]

I'm hoping it's a bug. It just sooo didn't make sense. Though he did call Punk!Hawke "my love" several times during the Justice quest dialogue so maybe they just bury politics at home and manage a loving relationship?

[Ryzaki]

ashyraine wrote...

I'm hoping it's a bug. It just sooo didn't make sense. Though he did call Punk!Hawke "my love" several times during the Justice quest dialogue so maybe they just bury politics at home and manage a loving relationship?

Yeah but if you give him the Cellar key he reacts like Hawke is very rarely affectionate. (And he treasures those few times). So yeah going from that to the whole "I want you here until the day we die." is just...I dunno it feels off. 

It doesn't help that there's not even a line of difference between that and the friendship mance during the love scene. Which again given all the differences between friendship and rivalry romances seems...odd.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

The whole "Rivalry romance" concept makes no sense to me to begin with, especially Anders'.


"I hate everything you do! You stand against everything I live for, you murder innocent mages, help Templars, made a poor child Tranquil, you treat me like a *****, and you are an all-around jerk to everyone!"

"That turns me on so much, let's have sex!"


There is a fine line between "angry sex" and whatever the hell that was supposed to be.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

The whole "Rivalry romance" concept makes no sense to me to begin with, especially Anders'.

"I hate everything you do! You stand against everything I live for, you murder innocent mages, help Templars, made a poor child Tranquil, you treat me like a *****, and you are an all-around jerk to everyone!"

"That turns me on so much, let's have sex!"


There is a fine line between "angry sex" and whatever the hell that was supposed to be.

You say this as though Anders is sane to begin with.  

Edit: Though what "innocent" mages did Hawke kill? The child that was made Tranquil asked Hawke to do it. And was very vulnerable to demons to the extent of having 2 of them fighting over him (with a third spectator). You don't have to treat Anders like **** and you don't have to be a jerk. 

But do continue with your misunderstanding of the rivalrymance. It's fascinating. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Edit: Though what "innocent" mages did Hawke kill? 

You can turn in a few to Meredith knowing full well that they will be executed, like Emile de Launcet.

Anders did not know that Grace was evil at that point, and we don't really know about her other companions.  Ser Thrask says Meredith had three of them executed just to make an example if you turn them in.  (in Act II he says she had three of them made Tranquil to make an example if you let them go free)

But yeah, aside from Emile and Bethany, almost every mage in Kirkwall is a blood mage, abomination, or ******.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Edit: Though what "innocent" mages did Hawke kill? 

You can turn in a few to Meredith knowing full well that they will be executed, like Emile de Launcet.

Anders did not know that Grace and company were evil at that point.

But yeah, aside from Emile and Bethany, almost every mage in Kirkwall is a blood mage, abomination, or ******.

Emile isn't executed. Nothing Meredith says suggests that he would be executed if he wasn't a bloodmage. (Especially considering she isn't said to do that for the other mages that handed themselves over.) 

Edit: The executions of three of the mages "at random." is something I'm irritated by. Why does Grace get plotshield? How is her bloodmagic completely unnoticed? However those mages *were* with a bloodmage. So I can see where the suspicion came from. (And frankly considering Grace and Alain it was pretty warrented. They just killed the wrong mages.) 

Then again those templars are the ones who completely ignore Hawke stabbing himself in the stomach so I shouldn't be too surprised. 

Grace practically wore a "I AM A BLOODMAGE" sign on her forehead. Everyone but Hawke and Anders were smart enough to see it. (And Hawke's stupidity at least is aided by plot dumb). And she wasn't "Innocent" by any stretch of the imagination. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Emile isn't executed. Nothing Meredith says suggests that he would be executed. (Especially considering she isn't said to do that for the other mages that handed themselves over.)

He was thought to be a blood mage, and it is clearly stated more than once that mages suspected of using blood magic are executed.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Grace practically wore a "I AM A BLOODMAGE" sign on her forehead. Everyone but Hawke and Anders were smart enough to see it. (And Hawke's stupidity at least is aided by plot dumb). And she wasn't "Innocent" by any stretch of the imagination. 

They didn't know that, and you can't claim retroactive wisdom about it.  That's just silly.

That would be like saying,  "They should have known Rosebud was the name of his sleigh the whole time, didn't they watch the movie?"

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Grace practically wore a "I AM A BLOODMAGE" sign on her forehead. Everyone but Hawke and Anders were smart enough to see it. (And Hawke's stupidity at least is aided by plot dumb). And she wasn't "Innocent" by any stretch of the imagination. 

You don't know that, and you can't claim retroactive wisdom about it.  That's just silly.

That would be like saying,  "They should have known Rosebud was the name of his sleigh the whole time, didn't they watch the movie?"

Actually I suspected it heavily. She was kneeling beside a bloodmage as he did some ritual. She wasn't being held, she hadn't tried to escape. Why would I believe she wasn't helping him and a bloodmage herself? The fact that I couldn't say that is what's silly. The fact that Hawke didn't suspect anything at all even when she suggests I kill the Templar outside is even more ridculous. 

Uh no. (I don't understand the whole it was his sleigh thing anyway wasn't remotely interested in that movie.) 

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
He was thought to be a blood mage, and it is clearly stated more than once that mages suspected of using blood magic are executed.

He stupidly went around *saying* he was a bloodmage. If he was executed it was because of his own stupidity. 

That said. He's not executed. And Hawke even tells Meredith she shouldn't execute him. She regards his word highly (if you're helping the templars) so it would be enough for Hawke to have the intention of handing Emile over and not thinking about trying to get him executed. 

Edit: That said this thread isn't about this. So I'll end it here. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually I suspected it heavily. She was kneeling beside a bloodmage as he did some ritual. She wasn't being held, she hadn't tried to escape. Why would I believe she wasn't helping him and a bloodmage herself? The fact that I couldn't say that is what's silly.

Welcome to fantasy games/movies, where characters are able to wear all black, have glowing red eyes, and speak in a low guttural tone without anyone so much as guessing that they are evil until they kill the protagonist's dad.

Uh no.

Magnificent rebuttal.  Truly breathtaking!  Nothing I say could possible counter that astounding logic!

He stupidly went around *saying* he was a bloodmage. If he was executed it was because of his own stupidity.

Which is relevant to the fact that Anders would be mad that he is executed how?


Seriously, what the **** are you arguing?  That Anders would not be mad at Hawke for being a dick to mages?  I don't give a crap whether or not you think it was justifed.  I already said I agreed that almost every mage in the game is a jerk or an idiot.  Regardless, Anders would be furious at Hawke for helping Templars.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
Seriously, what the **** are you arguing?  That Anders would not be mad at Hawke for being a dick to mages?

I'm arguing that I'm not being a dick to poor innocent mages. <_< 

That said I'm wasting my breath. Have a nice life. Do continue taking bits out of my post though. 

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm arguing that I'm not being a dick to poor innocent mages. <_<

Which is completely irrelevant to the fact that Anders would be furious at Hawke for you being mean to mages or nice to templars at all.  Especially when you don't find out they deserved it until more than 5 years later.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[Ryzaki]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
Which is completely irrelevant to the fact that Anders would be furious at Hawke for you being mean to mages or nice to templars at all.  Especially when you don't find out they deserved it until more than 5 years later.

You say that like it's some unknown phenomenon to be with someone that does things that you don't agree with. Like people always fall in love with people that they agree with and that are good to them. Everyone doesn't have a healthy relationship. Anders is obsessive and clingy even in the friendship mance. His relationship is a trainwreck and one to run away from really really fast. There's little healthy about it on either path (to be perfectly honest). Like racist people never have lovers and friends of the race they spew vitrol out, sexists can never be resepectful to even one woman by justifying it with "she's different." even if she really isn't. 

So *yes* he could fall in love with someone who does those things.

You also say it as though Hawke must do those things out of spite. 

If your asking me to try to explain human emotion with logic well that's not gonna happen. It doesn't work that way. Most people aren't logical in certain situations. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
Which is completely irrelevant to the fact that Anders would be furious at Hawke for you being mean to mages or nice to templars at all.  Especially when you don't find out they deserved it until more than 5 years later.

You say that like it's some unknown phenomenon to be with someone that does things that you don't agree with. Like people always fall in love with people that they agree with and that are good to them. Everyone doesn't have a healthy relationship. Anders is obsessive and clingy even in the friendship mance. His relationship is a trainwreck and one to run away from really really fast. There's little healthy about it on either path (to be perfectly honest). Like racist people never have lovers and friends of the race they spew vitrol out, sexists can never be resepectful to even one woman by justifying it with "she's different." even if she really isn't. 

So *yes* he could fall in love with someone who does those things.

If your asking me to try to explain human emotion with logic well that's not gonna happen. It doesn't work that way. Most people aren't logical in certain situations. 

It isn't just about Anders.  It's the idea of people liking Jerk Hawke in general.  Anders' particularly strong passion for mages just makes it even more ridiculous.

"Loving" someone more intensely the more cruel and mean-spirited they are to you is a psychological disorder, not normal sort of relationship.  Like Fenris "rival loving" Hawke more for saying he thinks "slavery is useful."  Or Merrill loving Hawke for being a jerk to her.

Isabela... well, she would **** anything capable of fogging a mirror.  Although, she may be a necrophiliac too...

The concept sounds like the sort of thing you would find in a bad fanfiction about Cloud and Sephiroth falling in love.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Ryzaki]

I never argued the relationship was healthy or normal. It is however quite possible. So if you want to get on a soapbox about sappy slash fanfiction this isn't the place. 

Also if you want to argue the merits of Jerk Hawke in general (which by the way isn't necessary for a rivalmance with Anders to begin with) Could you make your own thread instead of hijacking mine? It's not difficult if you're that bothered by it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 03:12 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Ryzaki wrote...

I never argued the relationship was healthy or normal. It is however quite possible.

In fanfiction.

[yoshibb]

It's pretty much the same with Fenris. There might be different dialogue here and there but it always ends the same. I always thought rivalry would be more violent and friendship more tender but the scenes are always the same.

[Ryzaki]

yoshibb wrote...

It's pretty much the same with Fenris. There might be different dialogue here and there but it always ends the same. I always thought rivalry would be more violent and friendship more tender but the scenes are always the same.

Actually while the love scenes look the same for Fenris friendship/romance the dialogue isn't exactly the same. (There's only slight variations in lines but they still vary) 

But with Anders the dialogue is exactly the same. 

[yoshibb]

Ryzaki wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

It's pretty much the same with Fenris. There might be different dialogue here and there but it always ends the same. I always thought rivalry would be more violent and friendship more tender but the scenes are always the same.

Actually while the love scenes look the same for Fenris friendship/romance the dialogue isn't exactly the same. (There's only slight variations in lines but they still vary) 

But with Anders the dialogue is exactly the same. 

Well, towards the beginning there is, but I'm not sure about the romance part. For instance, in Act 3 the questioning beliefs scene is different in the beginning but as soon as he says 'we haven't talked about what happened three years ago..." everything after that is the same. So I feel like rivalry and friendship scenes are different, but friendmance and rivalmance are pretty much the same thing.

[Ryzaki]

yoshibb wrote...
Well, towards the beginning there is, but I'm not sure about the romance part. For instance, in Act 3 the questioning beliefs scene is different in the beginning but as soon as he says 'we haven't talked about what happened three years ago..." everything after that is the same. So I feel like rivalry and friendship scenes are different, but friendmance and rivalmance are pretty much the same thing.

Oh you're right but it's the pretty much part I'm getting at. 

I mean there's no difference at all in the anders rivalry/friendship scene. Not even the usual 2 sentences. Not a different opening scene, not a different opening line, no different lines at all. 

And considering Anders' rivalrymance ending is completely boinked (as is the rivalry version of giving him the Tevinter amulet) it is pretty possible that this is bugged too. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 03:06 .

[yoshibb]

Ryzaki wrote...

yoshibb wrote...
Well, towards the beginning there is, but I'm not sure about the romance part. For instance, in Act 3 the questioning beliefs scene is different in the beginning but as soon as he says 'we haven't talked about what happened three years ago..." everything after that is the same. So I feel like rivalry and friendship scenes are different, but friendmance and rivalmance are pretty much the same thing.

Oh you're right but it's the pretty much part I'm getting at. 

I mean there's no difference at all in the anders rivalry/friendship scene. Not even the usual 2 sentences. Not a different opening scene, not a different opening line, no different lines at all. 

And considering Anders' rivalrymance ending is completely boinked (as is the rivalry version of giving him the Tevinter amulet) it is pretty possible that this is bugged too. 

It's definitely annoying. I chalk it up to another case of lack of time and money. I mean they couldn't even be bothered to make a shirtless Fenris for the love scene. Kind of shows that they really didn't put all the effort they could into the romances. 

Modifié par yoshibb, 16 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[Ryzaki]

yoshibb wrote...
It's definitely annoying. I chalk it up to another case of lack of time and money. I mean they couldn't even be bothered to make a shirtless Fenris for the love scene. Kind of shows that they really didn't put all the effort they could into the romances. 

Shirtless Fenris? He was supposed to be half dressed in the lovescene? 

[yoshibb]

Ryzaki wrote...

yoshibb wrote...
It's definitely annoying. I chalk it up to another case of lack of time and money. I mean they couldn't even be bothered to make a shirtless Fenris for the love scene. Kind of shows that they really didn't put all the effort they could into the romances. 

Shirtless Fenris? He was supposed to be half dressed in the lovescene? 

According to Gaider, the part where they talk afterwards he was supposed to be yes. But when he told the art department to do it they said "Well, what do you want us to cut then?" So basically they thought it was a waste to have it for one scene in the game. It's little cuts like these that get under my skin. It's like walking into the same cave ten times and having to pretend it's different from the last one. It just seems lazy and unfinished.