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[ShadowLordXII]

"Rant warning"

This guy is about as evil as the darkspawn themselves but I've read a lot of people saying that they like this guy and actually preferred him to Alistair.  It's the equivelent of Gotham City calling the Joker a saint and Batman the devil.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand that he was acting as a father pissed at Cailan for planning to ditch Anora for the Orleasian Empress because she hadn't given him a son yet.  I also understand why he hated the Orleasians since he lived through the occupation and that Ostagar may have been doomed regardless of his actions.

But put ands and ifs aside, this guy devised the battle plan for Ostagar and left while everyone was playing true to their roles in his plan.  After leaving most of the Army, Grey Wardens (Duncan among them), and the king, his best friend's son, to die horribly, he starts a civil war with the nobles and puts a bounty on any remaining Grey Wardens (the only group capable of stopping the blight), including his best friend's other son, after blaming them for the King's death. 

Not to mention knowingly consorting with Rendon Howe, you know the guy who allows elves to be sold to Tevinter (aka the Evil Magic Empire in the north that started the whole darkspawn mess), butchers the Couslands (one of the strongest noble familys in Ferelden therefore that's one less asset to use against the blight), and Loghain himself hired the blood mage who poisoned Eamon, setting off a chain of events that made everything worse.  All while doing next to nothing to fight the Blight that was destroying the nation he claimed to be trying to save!

Thoughts anyone?  Because I'm honestly perplexed.

[GSSAGE7]

Okay, let's take these one at a time.

Okay, I haven't really
heard a decent reason for this, so yeah, he's guilty of desertion at
least, and treason at worst. However, not everyone knows that the Grey
Wardens are NECESSARY to stop Blights. Most people see them as people
who are better at killing darkspawn, but not needed.

The other
ones are easier to defend, sorta. I believe it was stated that Loghain
had nothing to do with Howe killing the Couslands. That was all in his
sick little mind. I also saw somewhere here that Loghain never planned
on killing Eamon, as strange as that sounds. He had that elf keeping an
eye on Redcliffe, so that if his condition took a turn for the worst,
he'd be able to deliver an antidote. He didn't want to kill him, so much
as remove him from the equation temporarily. Also, he states in I think
the 3rd cutscene with him, Anora, and Howe that he doesn't even believe
it was a real Blight, just a large raid. Hence, he thought that the
civil war was a bigger problem.

Finally, if you keep an open mind
when watching his cutscenes, you can tell that at least in the scene
where Howe hired Zevran, he's more or less disgusted. The longer the
civil war and Blight goes on, the more he starts slipping. This topic could probably explain better though.

Oh, and despite my avatar, I'm not the biggest Loghain supporter. I just like his expression.

Modifié par GSSAGE7, 16 avril 2011 - 01:46 .

[ShadowLordXII]

thanks for the link

[Brawne]

Excuses excuses... off with his head!

[GSSAGE7]

Brawne wrote...

Excuses excuses... off with his head!

Considering that sparing him and the Dark Ritual means he ends up in the company of trained fighters who know he has betrayed them once, and recruiting more for that organization in a country he hates so much, that his paranoia over them almost led to him destroying his own...
I'd say the sadist in me likes keeping him alive. If we didn't have to deal with those Anora cutscenes afterwards, I'd always spare him.

[Greta13]

GSSAGE7 wrote...
Finally, if you keep an open mind
when watching his cutscenes, you can tell that at least in the scene
where Howe hired Zevran, he's more or less disgusted. The longer the
civil war and Blight goes on, the more he starts slipping. This topic could probably explain better though.

Oh, and despite my avatar, I'm not the biggest Loghain supporter. I just like his expression.

Oh, well of course my warden would have been greatly comforted knowing that Loghain was disgusted by having to hire a assassin! It's really just the thought that counts!! I don't like you assassin, but I'll still pay you to go kill this person so he doesn't bother me!!
Tche!!

[Biotic_Warlock]

I was thinking of him instead of alistair because of how hard he was to kill in the duel... but im thinking he was only hard cos of his boss bonuses.

Plus i kept alistair cos i was romancing him - JUST BEFORE HE DUMPED ME.

[NicolinoH]

I mainly enjoy killing alistair hes such a ******

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

Oh man the Anora cutscenes were not very good, especially the rally speech, eek! But it was totally worth having Loghain though!

I used to loathe him but after my third playthrough, I absolutely love him! Even with all the mistakes he made.

[TBastian]

Let's face it - if things had gone Loghain's way, Ferelden would have met the same fate as Lothering (wiped off the face of Thedas) and no amount of his spouting nationalistic balderdash could have stopped this from happening.

Modifié par TBastian, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .

[ShadowLordXII]

After a little review, I'd say that Loghain really is a deep character...stupid...but deep and complex at the same time.

The real blight on Ferelden I see now is Anora. She is the ruling queen of Ferelden and what does she do against Howe and Loghain? Nothing!

She sits in her pretty throne and let Daddy and Pennywise run her nation into the dirt while either keeping her ears in the dirt to keep from knowing what's going on or doing absolutely nothing against them despite technically holding the true power in Ferelden...

[Zaxares]

While I think Loghain needs to die for his crimes regardless, I think he is indeed a very deep and complex character with believable motivations. My only grumble was that there wasn't a dialogue option to tell Alistair to "[Persuade] Trust me...", so you could send Loghain to his death against the Archdemon without performing the Dark Ritual.

[Gallimatia]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

The real blight on Ferelden I see now is Anora. She is the ruling queen of Ferelden and what does she do against Howe and Loghain? Nothing!

She sits in her pretty throne and let Daddy and Pennywise run her nation into the dirt while either keeping her ears in the dirt to keep from knowing what's going on or doing absolutely nothing against them despite technically holding the true power in Ferelden...

Anora did what she could to get rid off Howe. She hated Howe because of how he controlled her father whom she'd much rather control herself. As for her holding the true power remember that the King has no army, much less an unelected Queen. A few palace guards is nothing to rule a country with. It's a weak monarchy when the nobility is loyal and a monarchy only in name when it is not. Loghain had a force to reckon with.

When Anora learned that Howe had a plan to lock her up and that Loghain had denied his request to carry it through (a friendly Loghain will tell you as much) she responded by going over to Howe and goading him into kidnapping her. This way she was guaranteed to force a break between the two men or better still get Howe killed in a carefully orchestrated rescue. It was a brave and bold plan and it spelled the end of Howe.

Anora is the one who points you towards the Alienege which shows that she was not holding her ears but rather monitoring the powers that be and keeping track of that which might be used against them. She will add her voice to yours in the Landsmeet which makes it easier to make Loghain to step down. You can accuse Anora of many things but not caring who holds the power and not working to acquire it herself are not among them.

[ShadowLordXII]

Gallimatia wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

The real blight on Ferelden I see now is Anora. She is the ruling queen of Ferelden and what does she do against Howe and Loghain? Nothing!

She sits in her pretty throne and let Daddy and Pennywise run her nation into the dirt while either keeping her ears in the dirt to keep from knowing what's going on or doing absolutely nothing against them despite technically holding the true power in Ferelden...

Anora did what she could to get rid off Howe. She hated Howe because of how he controlled her father whom she'd much rather control herself. As for her holding the true power remember that the King has no army, much less an unelected Queen. A few palace guards is nothing to rule a country with. It's a weak monarchy when the nobility is loyal and a monarchy only in name when it is not. Loghain had a force to reckon with.

When Anora learned that Howe had a plan to lock her up and that Loghain had denied his request to carry it through (a friendly Loghain will tell you as much) she responded by going over to Howe and goading him into kidnapping her. This way she was guaranteed to force a break between the two men or better still get Howe killed in a carefully orchestrated rescue. It was a brave and bold plan and it spelled the end of Howe.

Anora is the one who points you towards the Alienege which shows that she was not holding her ears but rather monitoring the powers that be and keeping track of that which might be used against them. She will add her voice to yours in the Landsmeet which makes it easier to make Loghain to step down. You can accuse Anora of many things but not caring who holds the power and not working to acquire it herself are not among them.

Then why did she wait a whole year to act?  Why did she allow the Civil War to drag on for that long while a blight was ravaging the land? Why did she even allow Loghain to try and become regent?

Link for full thoughts on Anora: http://social.biowar...6/index/8565310

[Gallimatia]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Then why did she wait a whole year to act?  Why did she allow the Civil War to drag on for that long while a blight was ravaging the land? Why did she even allow Loghain to try and become regent?

Link for full thoughts on Anora: http://social.biowar...6/index/8565310

Anora is not omnipotent. She does not allow Loghain to try and become regent. He tries it and she stops him when the circumstances allow it. That is when Eamon shows up with an opposing force.

It all boils down to Anora being powerless. Something she is demonstrably eager to change.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:48 .

[ShadowLordXII]

A lot of stuff happened beyond her control, true...

But what really bothers me is that she never really tries. Even when you arrive, she's perfectly willing to betray and backstab you if you don't promise her your full support...she'll even back her already incompetent father...that just screams incompetence to me...But again, that's just me.

[Mike3207]

About Loghain-you have to keep in mind he was a bit unreasonable on the subject of Orlais.It was not only the marriage to Celene, but I think it had been agreed between the two of them Ferelden would become a province of Orlais. It definitely had the appearance of treason, and somewhat like Loghain would definitely think it was.

[Mike3207]

Gallimatia wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Then why did she wait a whole year to act?  Why did she allow the Civil War to drag on for that long while a blight was ravaging the land? Why did she even allow Loghain to try and become regent?

Link for full thoughts on Anora: http://social.biowar...6/index/8565310

Anora is not omnipotent. She does not allow Loghain to try and become regent. He tries it and she stops him when the circumstances allow it. That is when Eamon shows up with an opposing force.

I believe she does name Loghain regent, but it was just after Ostagar at about the same time they hold the funeral service for Cailan. It's mentioned as rumor by Bodahn Feddic, but it seems a plausible rumor. It is a mistake, and she corrects it when she can.

[magelet]

Some people like the idea of redemption in Loghain's story. If you let him become a Grey Warden he can redeem his name by defeating the Archdemon. It makes it seem a little nicer than him betraying Cailin and then dying before he can fix anything.

But then some people just really hate Alistair...

[Aeowyn]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

"Rant warning"

This guy is about as evil as the darkspawn themselves but I've read a lot of people saying that they like this guy and actually preferred him to Alistair.  It's the equivelent of Gotham City calling the Joker a saint and Batman the devil.

I wouldn't consider Loghain to be evil at all.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand that he was acting as a father pissed at Cailan for planning to ditch Anora for the Orleasian Empress because she hadn't given him a son yet.  I also understand why he hated the Orleasians since he lived through the occupation and that Ostagar may have been doomed regardless of his actions.

Loghan knew nothing about that and won't know anything about it unless you spare him and bring him back to Ostagar in the DLC. Gaider said that they originally planned for him to know about it, but it was cut off from the game, and therefore it has nothing to do with his actions.

But put ands and ifs aside, this guy devised the battle plan for Ostagar and left while everyone was playing true to their roles in his plan.  After leaving most of the Army, Grey Wardens (Duncan among them), and the king, his best friend's son, to die horribly, he starts a civil war with the nobles and puts a bounty on any remaining Grey Wardens (the only group capable of stopping the blight), including his best friend's other son, after blaming them for the King's death.

The battle plan was doomed from the start because they did not know that the army of darkspawn was that big. They were overwhelmed, and would've lost the battle no matter what. Cailan chose to fight on the frontlines despite Loghain's warnings because he wanted to play a hero "like in the tales".
I prefer to have half the army alive, than the majority of the army dead, and it is my theory that Duncan and Cailan would've died even if Loghain and his men went ahead with the plan. I can recommend this blog post by KnightofPhoenix.
As for Loghain's actions afterwards, well, he let his paranoia get the best of him.

Not to mention knowingly consorting with Rendon Howe, you know the guy who allows elves to be sold to Tevinter (aka the Evil Magic Empire in the north that started the whole darkspawn mess)

Play Legacy.

Howe is a man I can call truly evil and manipulative, but he was also cunning and intelligent, and he knew exactly which pieces to play so he could use Loghain to fulfill his plans.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:42 .