126 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Also, Casey Hudson says we won't know the real reason behind Shepard being hunted by Cerberus until we actually play ME3, which, quite honestly, leads me to believe there is more to it than just Cerberus being themselves.

It's been raised before that the final choice of ME3 might be Shepard siding with the Reapers or not, but hearing Cerberus's shindig makes me wonder if the final choice is Shepard agreeing with Cerberus about X or not.

[KainrycKarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
And the Council is, you know...the Council. They, legally, represent the galaxy.

They're also racist, oppressive and keep the 'lesser races' from having any say in galactic politics.

And they don't even control the galaxy.

They don't even control all of the 2% they've surveyed.

The Council composes all the galaxy in the same way the city of New York composes North America.

2+2 = 4

Chair + chair = table

???

Well duh.  When did the council, or anyone, ever say that controlled the entire galaxy?

But they ARE the legitimate legal governing body of the known major civilizations in ME, and are accepted as such.

Why do people not get this? You don't have to like the council to understand that they are the recognized authority by the general populace.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Also, Casey Hudson says we won't know the real reason behind Shepard being hunted by Cerberus until we actually play ME3, which, quite honestly, leads me to believe there is more to it than just Cerberus being themselves.

It's been raised before that the final choice of ME3 might be Shepard siding with the Reapers or not, but hearing Cerberus's shindig makes me wonder if the final choice is Shepard agreeing with Cerberus about X or not.

What you're suggesting is essentially Shepard turning into Saren 2.0, meaning the trilogy going a full circle all over again. Which... would be interesting in its own right.

[Dean_the_Young]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
And the Council is, you know...the Council. They, legally, represent the galaxy.

They're also racist, oppressive and keep the 'lesser races' from having any say in galactic politics.

And they don't even control the galaxy.

They don't even control all of the 2% they've surveyed.

The Council composes all the galaxy in the same way the city of New York composes North America.

2+2 = 4

Chair + chair = table

???

Well duh.  When did the council, or anyone, ever say that controlled the entire galaxy?

But they ARE the legitimate legal governing body of the known major civilizations in ME, and are accepted as such.

Why do people not get this? You don't have to like the council to understand that they are the recognized authority by the general populace.

You missed a right turn awhile back. Take a few more lefts and you might make it, though.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Also, Casey Hudson says we won't know the real reason behind Shepard being hunted by Cerberus until we actually play ME3, which, quite honestly, leads me to believe there is more to it than just Cerberus being themselves.

It's been raised before that the final choice of ME3 might be Shepard siding with the Reapers or not, but hearing Cerberus's shindig makes me wonder if the final choice is Shepard agreeing with Cerberus about X or not.

What you're suggesting is essentially Shepard turning into Saren 2.0, meaning the trilogy going a full circle all over again. Which... would be interesting in its own right.

I don't know about 'full circle', but 'Shepard, you're a symbol, but not the good sort' might be right.

Especially a Renegade Shepard, who would be half Templar!Champion of Kirkwall, half-Lelouch-vi-Britannia 'All the anger in the galaxy if focused on me.' Shepard being killed could actually help calm galactic anger and environment.


Of course, that's more of a post-Reaper rational. I wonder what the pre-Reaper rational is.

[KainrycKarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
And the Council is, you know...the Council. They, legally, represent the galaxy.

They're also racist, oppressive and keep the 'lesser races' from having any say in galactic politics.

And they don't even control the galaxy.

They don't even control all of the 2% they've surveyed.

The Council composes all the galaxy in the same way the city of New York composes North America.

2+2 = 4

Chair + chair = table

???

Well duh.  When did the council, or anyone, ever say that controlled the entire galaxy?

But they ARE the legitimate legal governing body of the known major civilizations in ME, and are accepted as such.

Why do people not get this? You don't have to like the council to understand that they are the recognized authority by the general populace.

You missed a right turn awhile back. Take a few more lefts and you might make it, though.

I'm just stating the facts. I don't even like the council.

[Dean_the_Young]

You aren't stating facts. You're stating assumptions that are in now way conclusive or objective, only you believe they are because you haven't even asked yourself important questions regarding them.

How a government can claim to represent a galaxy when it hasn't even seen but a percentile of it is another. The nature of legitimacy is one. Why anyone should recognize the same authority that other people do is a question that doesn't even standup to contemporary politics.

[wizardryforever]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You aren't stating facts. You're stating assumptions that are in now way conclusive or objective, only you believe they are because you haven't even asked yourself important questions regarding them.

How a government can claim to represent a galaxy when it hasn't even seen but a percentile of it is another. The nature of legitimacy is one. Why anyone should recognize the same authority that other people do is a question that doesn't even standup to contemporary politics.

I believe he's saying that they represent the known galaxy to a large extent.  Pretty much every government (and the people supporting them) recognize the authority of the council.  That recognition may be grudging, but they recognize it.  The Batarians, Geth, and Terminus are the only ones who buck the council's authority.  Perhaps the council should change their rhetoric to "we are the known galaxy"?  That way people couldn't fixate on the semantics.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 16 avril 2011 - 05:25 .

[Naltair]

I represent the Quarian Flotilla.

No one expects tha Quarian Flotilla.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[KainrycKarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You aren't stating facts. You're stating assumptions that are in now way conclusive or objective, only you believe they are because you haven't even asked yourself important questions regarding them.

How a government can claim to represent a galaxy when it hasn't even seen but a percentile of it is another. The nature of legitimacy is one. Why anyone should recognize the same authority that other people do is a question that doesn't even standup to contemporary politics.

You aren't getting it. I am saying the council represents the general populace of known civilizations. The general populace accepts them as their government. That is what makes it legitimate. If the general populace were forming a revolution, or were protesting the Council's right to govern them, that is when legitimacy would come into question.

It's not a matter of whether they should accept it. They DO accept it.

This is a fact.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 16 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[KainrycKarr]

wizardryforever wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You aren't stating facts. You're stating assumptions that are in now way conclusive or objective, only you believe they are because you haven't even asked yourself important questions regarding them.

How a government can claim to represent a galaxy when it hasn't even seen but a percentile of it is another. The nature of legitimacy is one. Why anyone should recognize the same authority that other people do is a question that doesn't even standup to contemporary politics.

I believe he's saying that they represent the known galaxy to a large extent.  Pretty much every government (and the people supporting them) recognize the authority of the council.  That recognition may be grudging, but they recognize it.  The Batarians, Geth, and Terminus are the only ones who buck the council's authority.  Perhaps the council should change their rhetoric to "we are the known galaxy"?  That way people couldn't fixate on the semantics.

Precisely.

[Dean_the_Young]

wizardryforever wrote...

I believe he's saying that they represent the known galaxy to a large extent.  Pretty much every government (and the people supporting them) recognize the authority of the council.  That recognition may be grudging, but they recognize it.  The Batarians, Geth, and Terminus are the only ones who buck the council's authority.  Perhaps the council should change their rhetoric to "we are the known galaxy"?  That way people couldn't fixate on the semantics.

Recognition never equates to legitimacy, nor is recognition permanent and required.

Ultimately, the Council doesn't represent the known galaxy. The Council represents three particular species, and with large parts of the galaxy which are not Council space. (The Terminus, the Geth, the frontier, the Batarians, the Rachni, the Krogan, Humanity pre-Council, every other undiscovered world.) 

To call the Council the 'legitimate' representatives of the galaxy fixates on an entirely arbitrary definition of legitimate, which is no small semantic. The Council can't claim to a democratic legitimacy (ie, it is elected), the Council doesn't claim religious legitimacy. The Council doesn't even claim 'legitimacy', only that it exists and should continue to do so.

Such legitimacy only matters if one agrees, and respects it. When one doesn't, it has no more weight than the wind.

[Dean_the_Young]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You aren't getting it. I am saying the council represents the general populace of known civilizations. The general populace accepts them as their government. That is what makes it legitimate. If the general populace were forming a revolution, or were protesting the Council's right to govern them, that is when legitimacy would come into question.

It's not a matter of whether they should accept it. They DO accept it.

This is a fact.

Your difinition of legitimacy is highly debatable on legalist, moral, and practical grounds, all separately. That the Council exists does not ential it is legitimate. The Council doesn't even 'represent' the galaxy for any meaningful definition of the word: stands before no one but itself, and stands for no one but the Council species themselves. Everyone else is not represented.

[Naltair]

Recognition is a key to legitimacy. Governments accept their role and they are a recognized political entity. The Council is as legitimate as you can get. They control economics, politics, and society in the majority of galactic space. Even if you are in the Terminus you recognize the right of the Council as an entity.

[ElectronicFerret]

Nope, no Cerberus fans here

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your difinition of legitimacy is highly debatable on legalist, moral, and practical grounds, all separately. That the Council exists does not ential it is legitimate. The Council doesn't even 'represent' the galaxy for any meaningful definition of the word: stands before no one but itself, and stands for no one but the Council species themselves. Everyone else is not represented.

This isn't philosophy this is recognition as a state, the Council is a recognized state authority.  It represents the Council races plus all associated races.  Those races/governments in turn follow Council bylaws and answer to Council authority.  They also get access to the resources of the Council and the lucrative trade and information networks it controls.

[KainrycKarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

You aren't getting it. I am saying the council represents the general populace of known civilizations. The general populace accepts them as their government. That is what makes it legitimate. If the general populace were forming a revolution, or were protesting the Council's right to govern them, that is when legitimacy would come into question.

It's not a matter of whether they should accept it. They DO accept it.

This is a fact.

Your difinition of legitimacy is highly debatable on legalist, moral, and practical grounds, all separately. That the Council exists does not ential it is legitimate. The Council doesn't even 'represent' the galaxy for any meaningful definition of the word: stands before no one but itself, and stands for no one but the Council species themselves. Everyone else is not represented.

I'm going to state it one more time.

The council claims to represent the known civilizations(or at least the vast majority). Those civilizations ACCEPT them as their governing body. This makes their claim to being the government, LEGITIMATE.

I am not TALKING about the uncharted, unknown areas of the galaxy; NOONE IS.

[Naltair]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I'm going to state it one more time.

The council claims to represent the known civilizations(or at least the vast majority). Those civilizations ACCEPT them as their governing body. This makes their claim to being the government, LEGITIMATE.

I am not TALKING about the uncharted, unknown areas of the galaxy; NOONE IS.

Agreed.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[wizardryforever]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I believe he's saying that they represent the known galaxy to a large extent.  Pretty much every government (and the people supporting them) recognize the authority of the council.  That recognition may be grudging, but they recognize it.  The Batarians, Geth, and Terminus are the only ones who buck the council's authority.  Perhaps the council should change their rhetoric to "we are the known galaxy"?  That way people couldn't fixate on the semantics.

Recognition never equates to legitimacy, nor is recognition permanent and required.

Ultimately, the Council doesn't represent the known galaxy. The Council represents three particular species, and with large parts of the galaxy which are not Council space. (The Terminus, the Geth, the frontier, the Batarians, the Rachni, the Krogan, Humanity pre-Council, every other undiscovered world.) 

To call the Council the 'legitimate' representatives of the galaxy fixates on an entirely arbitrary definition of legitimate, which is no small semantic. The Council can't claim to a democratic legitimacy (ie, it is elected), the Council doesn't claim religious legitimacy. The Council doesn't even claim 'legitimacy', only that it exists and should continue to do so.

Such legitimacy only matters if one agrees, and respects it. When one doesn't, it has no more weight than the wind.

They do represent the other species as well.  Just because they don't have a representative on the council, that doesn't mean that the council ignores them.  The volus, elcor, hanar, quarians, and of course krogan affect the galaxy and their grievances are brought before the council.  They too recognize the council's authority the same way the rest of the UN recognizes the Security Council.  The principle is the same.

To claim legitimacy, you simply must have recognition.  Your claim is baseless without it.  I could claim to the entire world that I represented the best interests of the entire human race, and that everyone should listen to me.  Would my claim be legitimate?  Even if I did represent the best interests of the human race, people would not take me seriously and thus I would not be legitimate.  If people don't recognize your authority, it doesn't matter what claims you make, it is not legitimate (not anymore, if it ever was).  Legitimacy is a matter of popular consensus, always was and will be until we change the definition.

[ExtremeOne]

Quole wrote...

Wait.... Cerberus has fans?

  


Oh you damn right it does and what Bioware has done to us Cerberus fans was give us a big F U in ME 3 and that will be dealt with at least in My game by Extreme disobedience of all Allaince orders and revenge. 

[Seboist]

Hopefully despite getting screwed out of working with Cerberus I can have another Renegade option like rallying the non-council races like Krogan,Vorcha,Rachni,etc against the Council.

[Dean_the_Young]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I'm going to state it one more time.

The council claims to represent the known civilizations(or at least the vast majority). Those civilizations ACCEPT them as their governing body. This makes their claim to being the government, LEGITIMATE.

I am not TALKING about the uncharted, unknown areas of the galaxy; NOONE IS.

And I'll repeat it to you:

Not everyone accepts your definition of what makes a government legitimate. You're conducting a variation of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your difinition of legitimacy is highly debatable on legalist, moral, and practical grounds, all separately. That the Council exists does not ential it is legitimate. The Council doesn't even 'represent' the galaxy for any meaningful definition of the word: stands before no one but itself, and stands for no one but the Council species themselves. Everyone else is not represented.

This isn't philosophy this is recognition as a state

Agreed.

, the Council is a recognized state authority.

Disagreed on the basis of what we agreed.

 It represents the Council races plus all associated races.

Disagreed on the basis of what 'representation' entials in terms of what we agreed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

Recognition is a key to legitimacy.

Recognition can also be withdrawn. Therefore, legitimacy also springs from something else.

Even if you are in the Terminus you recognize the right of the Council as an entity.

Not by any historic  standard of governance is this intrensic. You can well not be a part of something AND not recognize it's right to do so.

[Chewin]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Also, Casey Hudson says we won't know the real reason behind Shepard being hunted by Cerberus until we actually play ME3, which, quite honestly, leads me to believe there is more to it than just Cerberus being themselves.

It's been raised before that the final choice of ME3 might be Shepard siding with the Reapers or not, but hearing Cerberus's shindig makes me wonder if the final choice is Shepard agreeing with Cerberus about X or not.

What you're suggesting is essentially Shepard turning into Saren 2.0, meaning the trilogy going a full circle all over again. Which... would be interesting in its own right.

'Interesting' is a good word here. I wouldn't mind an ending like this one

Modifié par Chewin3, 16 avril 2011 - 06:48 .