126 réponses à ce sujet

[88mphSlayer]

NKKKK wrote...

I agree with everything that Cerberus does, ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS, HUMANITY.

I'M HARDOCRE AND YOU KNOW IT

what Cerberus has done is a drop in the bucket compared to what the council races have already done to non-council races

[KainrycKarr]

88mphSlayer wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

I agree with everything that Cerberus does, ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS, HUMANITY.

I'M HARDOCRE AND YOU KNOW IT

what Cerberus has done is a drop in the bucket compared to what the council races have already done to non-council races

Which is...(besides the genophage)

[Seboist]

KainrycKarr wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

I agree with everything that Cerberus does, ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS, HUMANITY.

I'M HARDOCRE AND YOU KNOW IT

what Cerberus has done is a drop in the bucket compared to what the council races have already done to non-council races

Which is...(besides the genophage)

1. Refusing to aid the Quarians against the Geth during Morning war.

2. Encouraging humans to settle Batarian claimed systems.

3. Refusing to assist human colonies against Geth attacks.

4. Exterminating the Rachni

[Nashiktal]

Don;t forget the refusal of aid to said human colonies after said encouragement, also the refusal of aid when full blown colonies are disappearing.

Ah and the Turian empire's policy of conquering minor races, only being stopped by the other council races once one of the races actually managed to fight back.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The only reason Cerberus hasn't done the large scale evils that one could claim the Council have done is simply because they aren't big enough. If Cerberus was as strong as the Council you could bet your life every single specie in the galaxy would be worse for it including humanity.

As for the Quarians they created their own problem so the Council was right not to help them.

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, I don't think I've ever heard support for genocide ever been based on 'it was their own fault' before.

[Quole]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The only reason Cerberus hasn't done the large scale evils that one could claim the Council have done is simply because they aren't big enough. If Cerberus was as strong as the Council you could bet your life every single specie in the galaxy would be worse for it including humanity.

As for the Quarians they created their own problem so the Council was right not to help them.

It wasnt just that they dint help, they also kicked them off the citadel, allowed racism towards them, and havent let them recolonize. Also, I doubt all the Quarians were involved in making/attacking the geth, so you would essentially be punishing millions of innocents.

Modifié par Quole, 16 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know, I don't think I've ever heard support for genocide ever been based on 'it was their own fault' before.

1) It wasn't genocide the Qurians are still alive.
2) The Quarians were trying to commit genocide on the Geth for no reason at all.
3) I was never in favor of what happened to the Quarians, if I had been the Council I would have helped them evacuate their worlds sooner to save more lives or try for peace but siding with them against the Geth who had done nothing to deserve an attack would be evil.

@Quole Check number 3 for what I would have done. But between doing nothing to help the Quarians and helping them wipe out the Geth I think the former was the correct course of action. The Quarians that didn't want to be in the war should have ran out of the system.

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 16 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know, I don't think I've ever heard support for genocide ever been based on 'it was their own fault' before.

1) It wasn't genocide the Qurians are still alive.

Not the ones who were killed. A small fraction of a population surviving doesn't make a population reduction not genocide.

2) The Quarians were trying to commit genocide on the Geth for no reason at all.

They had many reasons... if you even concede the the Geth were alive at all. Not least of which was the Council's own policies.

3) I was never in favor of what happened to the Quarians, if I had been the Council I would have helped them evacuate their worlds sooner to save more lives or try for peace but siding with them against the Geth who had done nothing to deserve an attack would be evil.

But, alas, that's not what the Council did.

Rest assured, though, I've never confused you for part of the Council.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know, I don't think I've ever heard support for genocide ever been based on 'it was their own fault' before.[/quote]

1) It wasn't genocide the Qurians are still alive.[/quote]Not the ones who were killed. A small fraction of a population surviving doesn't make a population reduction not genocide.
[quote]
2) The Quarians were trying to commit genocide on the Geth for no reason at all.[/quote]They had many reasons... if you even concede the the Geth were alive at all. Not least of which was the Council's own policies.

[quote]
3) I was never in favor of what happened to the Quarians, if I had been the Council I would have helped them evacuate their worlds sooner to save more lives or try for peace but siding with them against the Geth who had done nothing to deserve an attack would be evil.
[/quote]But, alas, that's not what the Council did.

Rest assured, though, I've never confused you for part of the Council.

[/quote]

If there is a system wide war going on and there is technology that can evacuate your people instantly out of that system than the civilians should have done that when the war started. For whatever reasone they all stayed and got themselves caught in the cross fire. Clearly though when they decided to flee they weren't followed so whatever lose of life can be blamed on Quarian stuberness as it can be on a Geth's weapon.

Those 'reasons' were based on nothing but a racist fear of non-organic life = evil. If they feared the Geth being hostile and they chose to go to war with them which is the only choice to assure hostility than that is idiocy and being stupid isn't a good reason for trying to commit genocide.

It should have been handled better by the Council. When the war started the Council should have come in instantly to stop the conflict. Heck had they done that everyone would have found out the Geth just want to be left alone and the Council could have relocated them to a lifeless system and that would have been the end of it

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If there is a system wide war going on and there is technology that can evacuate your people instantly out of that system than the civilians should have done that when the war started. For whatever reasone they all stayed and got themselves caught in the cross fire. Clearly though when they decided to flee they weren't followed so whatever lose of life can be blamed on Quarian stuberness as it can be on a Geth's weapon.

Uh, no. Not by any modern definition of what genocidal wars entail.

Short of the Quarians literally throwing themselves on Geth bayonets... the one faction responsible for the death of billions of Quarian civilians are the Geth.

Those 'reasons' were based on nothing but a racist fear of non-organic life = evil. If they feared the Geth being hostile and they chose to go to war with them which is the only choice to assure hostility than that is idiocy and being stupid isn't a good reason for trying to commit genocide.

A bunch of subjective opinions.

It should have been handled better by the Council. When the war started the Council should have come in instantly to stop the conflict. Heck had they done that everyone would have found out the Geth just want to be left alone and the Council could have relocated them to a lifeless system and that would have been the end of it

Unfortunately, the Geth have a habbit of killing any peace envoys sent to ascertain their intentions.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Quarians that finally left the worlds were able to leave without being followed which means they could have left at any point but they didn't. The Quarians wanted to fight a war and they ended up lossing alot of people in a war that ended up using chemical and probably nuclear weapons. If the Quarian govenrment didn't have their civilians evacuated long ago than yes the Quarian govenrment is partially to blame for not protecting their people.

A bunch of logicall points you mean. Having a knee-jerk reation to something and trying to kill it without even trying to talk to the Geth is stupid. Their logic is broken and their reasons are baseless.

The people who were sent back were turned into husks, husk tech is Reaper tech and the heritics are the only Geth that use Reaper tech. So the death of the envoys is because of the heritics not the core Geth.

[Sajuro]

Seboist wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

I agree with everything that Cerberus does, ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS, HUMANITY.

I'M HARDOCRE AND YOU KNOW IT

what Cerberus has done is a drop in the bucket compared to what the council races have already done to non-council races

Which is...(besides the genophage)

1. Refusing to aid the Quarians against the Geth during Morning war.

2. Encouraging humans to settle Batarian claimed systems.

3. Refusing to assist human colonies against Geth attacks.

4. Exterminating the Rachni

1. The Quarians got themselves into their own mess by attempting genocide as soon as they were aware that the Geth were sentient instead of some sort of psuedo compensation (geth bucks )

2. The Batarians wanted those systems, but they had no claim to it and it was basically the galactic version of "I call shotgun!" and humans were like "stfu" and Batarians did a :rageface:

3. Human colonies that were on the edge of Citadel Space, and for the collectors (since I know it will come up) Human colonies that were in the Termimus system because they didn't want taxes and government involved.

4. The 'oh **** they're gonna kill us all!' bugs? during the course of the war they probably attempted to make peace several times before they were about to die and then they uplifted the Krogan, so kind of justified.

[jojon2se]

You know... seeing that picture in the first post... stylistically... it kinda looks like a reaper descending.

Modifié par jojon2se, 16 avril 2011 - 09:32 .

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not by any historic  standard of governance is this intrensic. You can well not be a part of something AND not recognize it's right to do so.

Historically a state tends to deal with another state if they feel the new state is actually worth dealing with and not just conquered or ignored.  In the case of the Council the Terminus systems and the Batarians and other independent government may not give the Council authority but they would be foolish to just discount them as some yahoos with no power.  The Council has significant resources to back up their claims of authority.  This is authority given to them by the countless systems/species/governments that participate in trade, politics, and daily galactic business under the Council umbrella.

So yes you as an individual or even a nation/state can deny their “legitimacy” but that does not mean they are not a legitimate governing authority.  Council space is the majority of known sentient space so in this case sure they can say they represent the Galaxy, because for the most part they do.  If this were not the case then the Batarian Hegemony would not go out of their way to make sure that their language is kept up to date, in the language translation they would just ignore the Council, so that they can maintain a dialogue with the Council races and Council space.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 11:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not by any historic  standard of governance is this intrensic. You can well not be a part of something AND not recognize it's right to do so.

Historically a state tends to deal with another state if they feel the new state is actually worth dealing with and not just conquered or ignored.  In the case of the Council the Terminus systems and the Batarians and other independent government may not give the Council authority but they would be foolish to just discount them as some yahoos with no power.  The Council has significant resources to back up their claims of authority.  This is authority given to them by the countless systems/species/governments that participate in trade, politics, and daily galactic business under the Council umbrella.

So yes you as an individual or even a nation/state can deny their “legitimacy” but that does not mean they are not a legitimate governing authority.  Council space is the majority of known sentient space so in this case sure they can say they represent the Galaxy, because for the most part they do.  If this were not the case then the Batarian Hegemony would not go out of their way to make sure that their language is kept up to date, in the language translation they would just ignore the Council, so that they can maintain a dialogue with the Council races and Council space.

This works both ways, on all acounts. A group can claim legitimacy, and not be legitimate. Legitimacy by recognition is legitimacy by popular opinion... which is only as enduring as anyone else feels it should be.

And, of course, if someone or someones else holds a different standard of legitimacy... well, you lose out (as far as they are concerned). You aren't legitimate.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[Naltair]

In the case of the Council it has endured for over a thousand years at least.

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

In the case of the Council it has endured for over a thousand years at least.

Which only matters if you care.

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
This works both ways, on all acounts. A group can claim legitimacy, and not be legitimate. Legitimacy by recognition is legitimacy by popular opinion... which is only as enduring as anyone else feels it should be.

And, of course, if someone or someones else holds a different standard of legitimacy... well, you lose out (as far as they are concerned). You aren't legitimate.

I am not arguing individual opinion I am arguining state policy and how political states interact.

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Naltair wrote...

In the case of the Council it has endured for over a thousand years at least.

Which only matters if you care.

What?  I am really at a loss here as to your point.  So basically if I sit here and say the United States is not a legitimate government then it isn't?  Is that your stance?

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[PicdiCr80]

Well for the people saying the Council aren't legal and or the governing body of the known galaxy:


1. Legality = whatever the law dictates after that law is defined by the majority(consensus) of those to be under that law.

2. The council are the governing body in the known galaxy because the codex said so and considering it's a video game, stop bringing in all this outside information when the game itself says they are, so they are.

3. I don't agree with anything Cerberus does or anyone IN Cerberus for the fact they believe in the greater good. Those that believe in the greater good are wrong.

[lovgreno]

The Council are only going to be able to rule the council races as long as they allow themselves to be ruled. For a very long time now Average Galactic Joe obviously thinks he is somehow represented by the rulers seeing as they are still in power.

[Peer of the Empire]

****** Sapiens Invictus

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 17 avril 2011 - 02:50 .

[NKKKK]

GodWood wrote...

This is pretty much all Cerberus fans

[88mphSlayer]

NKKKK wrote...

GodWood wrote...

This is pretty much all Cerberus fans

Cerberus isn't vintage enough for Alliance fans