74 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMew]

Well, that's the only point of criticism on the Friendship/Rivalry system in my book. There is no way of 'saving your companion from him/herself' if you actually agree with them most of the time (but not always). Merril and Anders romances are like that -- if you want to be able to be a *real* friend and tell them they're doing something nuts you basically have to oppose their whole worldview.

[Asdara]

The rivalmance of Anders, Merrill, Isabella, and - once for a lark - Sebastian "make sense" to me and feel like I am the kind of partner who challenges them, but ultimately cares about them too. Obviously, this is in part because they hold some fairly uncommon character quirks that make a good issue for my character to be working on with them. Sort of like the teenage habit of finding someone who "You could help if you were only closer to them" (guys may not get that way, I know most of my female friends went through this stage at least once though and I with them).

The Fenris one though... just doesn't lend itself to that idea as well. I think because he's already got so much baggage that he displays pretty obviously - taking up another issue with him is just poking him with a sharp stick because you can. I guess you could presume that he falls in love with Hawke even if they are mean because he's got a complex that drives him to be devoted to a figure that appears to be his chief source of protection. That isn't as familiar a dynamic for most of us though and it wears a little uncomfortably.

[Saephy]

I found the parts I´ve played of the Rivalmance with Fenris to be less credible than for instance, Anders.
I too get the distinct feeling that Fenris just plain despises you on the rival path, as a player I had problems seeing why the two would stay together at all, perhaps it changes later on?

Anders was way better and I like this one a lot because of the added dialogue and perspective.
I don`t get the feeling that they hate eachother although I certainly get the impression they disagree, this is more in line with what I´d expect from a rivalmance.
The problem here is that if you´ve gotten to that point in the rivalmance, it is very likely Hawke has committed acts that WOULD make Anders actually hate him/her.

I haven`t played Merrill and Isabela rivalmances yet so can`t comment on those.

To me, friendship doesn`t mean agreeing on EVERYTHING and rivalry doesn`t mean disagreeing on EVERYTHING, the two concepts are "general"-markers on your relationship with a companion however, so role-playing occasional agreement/disagreement is more likely to leave you in the middle which is not exactly an attractive option no matter how you look at it.

Anders Rivalmance dialogue does a lot better at embracing this idea than his Friendmance, allowing you to essentially agree on mages (his hot button) yet disagree with his possession, or methods, or choice in clothes or what have you, a friend doesn`t have this option at all, it is just presumed you agree on everything.
This is my main problem with Anders friendmance, the dialogue reflects complete and utter agreement and compliance at all times, and it really downplays the "Anders being possessed"-issue.
Presumably he has stopped considering it a curse (which is what he himself calls it in one of your earliest conversations), and is now happy with being "wiped out" by Vengeance, and this without Hawke ever saying anything to indicate that it was a remotely good idea at any point, and without any indicators as to what else changed his mind.

Friendmance-Fenris actually does this as well, you may suggest that maaaybe magic isn`t, in fact, the root of all evil and all his problems, of course he respectfully disagrees, but you get to express a dissenting opinion at least.

I do agree if Hawke despises mages or is an adamant supporter of Meredith, a relationship between him/her and Anders is much less credible, or if Hawke thinks the Tevinters got it right, a relationship between him/her and Fenris would be a bit "out there".

The points do not distinguish between disagreement on major topics and minor topics however, so you get the same result if Hawke despises mages as if Hawke likes mages but has disagreed on minor topics.
There´s also a shortage of minor topics to disagree on, or so it feels like, in comparison to major ones and agreeing on major ones will push you towards friendship again.
At the top of my head, I have no idea or suggestions as to how you´d implement a system that took all this into consideration though, nor if it would actually work out well at all or make any sense, overall I´m pleased with the Friendship/Rivalry system with romances and the basic concept does make sense to me and is a huge step in the right direction as far as I´m concerned.

Modifié par Saephy, 16 avril 2011 - 03:48 .

[Ollymandias]

I have been able to rivalmance both Fenris and Merrill to 100% while roleplaying a consistent and reasonable standpoint, though I did have to be careful about which quests I brought which companions to.

With Fenris, I took a stance of helping mages while despising slavery, and I didn't have problems getting him to full rivalry by around the mid-point of Act 3. Even with friendship hits for giving Hadriana's slave a job, and helping horrible Uncle Gamlen, I didn't have to resort to being a dick to him in order to max his bar. Hawke was sanctimonious about forgiving grudges and putting his past behind him, but not outright unkind.

With Merrill I took the stance of liking mages but hating blood magic. I was a bit stern and condescending towards her, kept the elven mirror-restoration-device out of her hands, and this balanced out helping the Starkhaven mages escape and whatnot. Destroying the Evil Books helped, and refusing to negotiate with demons.

Both were pretty satisfying stories. Fenris was a bit grumpy, but I never got the impression he disliked my Hawke- but was instead frustrated by Hawke's views and exasperated by him now and then.  

I haven't played Anders rivalmance or Isabela's, but I imagine they are also completable without compromising a consistent Hawke.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 16 avril 2011 - 04:03 .

[KJandrew]

Rifneno wrote...

I haven't even tried them.  I find it a odd decision at best.  Only in badly written TV shows and movies do people jump straight into bed from wanting to tear each other's heads off.

You've obviously never heard angry sex then

[Addai]

Asdara wrote...
The Fenris one though... just doesn't lend itself to that idea as well. I think because he's already got so much baggage that he displays pretty obviously - taking up another issue with him is just poking him with a sharp stick because you can. I guess you could presume that he falls in love with Hawke even if they are mean because he's got a complex that drives him to be devoted to a figure that appears to be his chief source of protection. That isn't as familiar a dynamic for most of us though and it wears a little uncomfortably.

I think it plays out the most sensibly with Fenris.  He goes through the same essential transformation in both rivalry and friendship- in both he realizes he needs to move on from his hatred and realizes he has something to move on to.  In act 3 he asks for Hawke's advice and says "we don't always agree, but you're obviously doing something right."  There is respect there, not a complex.  I really didn't see much difference except in the tone of some conversations.  And the friendship romance wasn't sweeter to me.  He seemed sadder.

Anders and Merrill make me more uncomfortable because I don't like the idea that the PC has such an overreaching influence on their lives, that you can actually influence their orientation towards their life goals.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Asdara]

Addai67 wrote...

Asdara wrote...
The Fenris one though... just doesn't lend itself to that idea as well. I think because he's already got so much baggage that he displays pretty obviously - taking up another issue with him is just poking him with a sharp stick because you can. I guess you could presume that he falls in love with Hawke even if they are mean because he's got a complex that drives him to be devoted to a figure that appears to be his chief source of protection. That isn't as familiar a dynamic for most of us though and it wears a little uncomfortably.

I think it plays out the most sensibly with Fenris.  He goes through the same essential transformation in both rivalry and friendship- in both he realizes he needs to move on from his hatred and realizes he has something to move on to.  In act 3 he asks for Hawke's advice and says "we don't always agree, but you're obviously doing something right."  There is respect there, not a complex.  I really didn't see much difference except in the tone of some conversations.  And the friendship romance wasn't sweeter to me.  He seemed sadder.

Anders and Merrill make me more uncomfortable because I don't like the idea that the PC has such an overreaching influence on their lives, that you can actually influence their orientation towards their life goals.

I thought the Friendship Romance with Fenris, as you said, basically took him to the same realization - and I didn't find him sadder so much as less angry.  Differences of perception though, and I respect your assessment too.  That was part of the hang up for me though - since both his paths seem to end in the same place (unlike Merrill and Anders, who I'll get to) it seemed to me more natural to just be natural around Fenris, and whatever your character developed depending on their stance (because he is very reactionary to things you do and choose) then that's what you end up with.  

Anders and Merrill... ok Anders: yeah, it seems messed up that you could make him realize he was on the crazy side with the whole mage freedom cause, or at least not going about it well until you account for the alchemy that is Justice/Vengeance/Anders, and consider that making him realize that is just pulling away those first two layers of internal influence to get to the Anders who just wanted to shoot fire at fools.  That's my take on it anyway.  Merrill: the mirror is a bad idea; everyone and their Keeper thinks so; making her realize that shouldn't be impossible if so many other people see it so clearly.  I think enabling her is only appropriate for certainly RP'ed characters, which is her Friend path.

[ejoslin]

Asdara wrote...

The rivalmance of Anders, Merrill, Isabella, and - once for a lark - Sebastian "make sense" to me and feel like I am the kind of partner who challenges them, but ultimately cares about them too. Obviously, this is in part because they hold some fairly uncommon character quirks that make a good issue for my character to be working on with them. Sort of like the teenage habit of finding someone who "You could help if you were only closer to them" (guys may not get that way, I know most of my female friends went through this stage at least once though and I with them).

The Fenris one though... just doesn't lend itself to that idea as well. I think because he's already got so much baggage that he displays pretty obviously - taking up another issue with him is just poking him with a sharp stick because you can. I guess you could presume that he falls in love with Hawke even if they are mean because he's got a complex that drives him to be devoted to a figure that appears to be his chief source of protection. That isn't as familiar a dynamic for most of us though and it wears a little uncomfortably.

I think a Fenris rivalmance with a mage makes a lot of sense.  You don't have to be mean to him -- you just have to be a mage.

In a rivalmance with him, he acknowledges it's time to let go of the hate that has been driving him.  I like that part of it.  In the friendmance he says something about the future instead.

I can't be friends with Merrill for some reason.  Her rivalry is usually maxed out before act 3.  She just disapproves of everything my Hawkes do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 avril 2011 - 05:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Rivalrymance with Anders is trying to get him to see compromise is possible. And that Vengeance is a demon and not good for him, defintely not a force he should be listening to about tactical advice for better lives for mages.

Oh it can be abusive, manipulative petty and cruel (but so can anything if you do it a certain way). But it can also be trying to stop him from making things worse. For both himself and other mages.

At least that's how I saw it.

Once the rivalry ending is fixed I'll be able to expand on this.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
I think a Fenris rivalmance with a mage makes a lot of sense.  You don't have to be mean to him -- you just have to be a mage.

His other line that I like is "you are strong, Hawke, but not all mages are," and tries to warn her not to assume that all mages are as she is.  it was another moment where I saw there was respect for Hawke and not hatred, and that their common ground was not in how they treated mages but the fact that they are both strong individuals.

I can't be friends with Merrill for some reason.  Her rivalry is usually maxed out before act 3.  She just disapproves of everything my Hawkes do.

I ended up with friendship on my mage because I hate the idea of running someone's life, so with a more laissez faire approach, she ends up thinking you approve of her playing around with the mirror.  I also don't like the rivalry because again, it's like meddling and ends up seeming illogical to me- why would I go to all the trouble to get the arulin holm and then keep it from her?  In a romance it seems like Hawke is the adult and she's the child.  That just repels me.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I think a Fenris rivalmance with a mage makes a lot of sense.  You don't have to be mean to him -- you just have to be a mage.

His other line that I like is "you are strong, Hawke, but not all mages are," and tries to warn her not to assume that all mages are as she is.  it was another moment where I saw there was respect for Hawke and not hatred, and that their common ground was not in how they treated mages but the fact that they are both strong individuals.

I can't be friends with Merrill for some reason.  Her rivalry is usually maxed out before act 3.  She just disapproves of everything my Hawkes do.

I ended up with friendship on my mage because I hate the idea of running someone's life, so with a more laissez faire approach, she ends up thinking you approve of her playing around with the mirror.  I also don't like the rivalry because again, it's like meddling and ends up seeming illogical to me- why would I go to all the trouble to get the arulin holm and then keep it from her?  In a romance it seems like Hawke is the adult and she's the child.  That just repels me.

Not everything you do to earn her disapproval is meddling though.  Just destroying those demon books adds a ton of rivalry.  And trusting her keeper over her regarding the knife thing is not meddling -- she by that time has admitted she is doing this on behest of a demon and the mirror already killed someone she knew.

I do agree that Fenris and Hawke in a rivalmance respect each other.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[bleetman]

I generally found Merrill's rivalmance works better if you clear the Dog Lords out of Lowtown first.

You never want to see me again? Mission accomplished.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[sonoko]

I wish Bioware would distinguish between rivalry and hostility.

 I can understand Anders' rivalmance if you are telling him that merging with Justice was bad idea, but rivalmancing him while being actively pro-templar and anti-mage - that absolutely doesn't make any sense to me! The same thing with Fenris: rivalmance is ok when you are trying to persuade him that magic itself isn't evil, but if you are supporting slavery - how can he still be with you?!

It would be more logical if companions could left you or break their relationships with you if you disagree with them about such crucial things.

Modifié par sonoko, 16 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[ejoslin]

sonoko wrote...

I wish Bioware would distinguish between rivalry and hostility.

 I can understand Anders' rivalmance if you are telling him that merging with Justice was bad idea, but rivalmancing him while being actively pro-templar and anti-mage - that absolutely doesn't make any sense to me! The same thing with Fenris: rivalmance is ok when you are trying to persuade him that magic itself isn't evil, but if you are supporting slavery - how can he still be with you?!

It would be more logical if companions could left you or break their relationships with you if you disagree with them about such crucial things.

There IS a point in Anders romance where he will dump Hawke if Hawke does something particularly heinous in Anders' eyes.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
There IS a point in Anders romance where he will dump Hawke if Hawke does something particularly heinous in Anders' eyes.

And it's the one action that can't really be justified. 

For those curious it's making a deal with Torpor for Feyrnriel's soul and killing Anders when he attacks you for it. 

Giving all the mages to the circle can be justified (easily truthfully) by not wanting them to get caught by the Templars anyway and facing worst punishment. (And heck a diplomatic Hawke will even say so.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
There IS a point in Anders romance where he will dump Hawke if Hawke does something particularly heinous in Anders' eyes.

And it's the one action that can't really be justified. 

For those curious it's making a deal with Torpor for Feyrnriel's soul and killing Anders when he attacks you for it. 

Giving all the mages to the circle can be justified (easily truthfully) by not wanting them to get caught by the Templars anyway and facing worst punishment. (And heck a diplomatic Hawke will even say so.) 

Oh, I think it's great that he does break up with Hawke.  Though Feynriel makes me nervous -- he's going to be very very powerful.  Heh, maybe he'll be the stand in for the OGB if someone didn't do the ritual in origins!  Abomination or no, he is going to be scary.  Though he can be made tranquil so who knows.

I was thinking a bit about Fenris' rivalry romance.  It's actually not as hostile as some people seem to think it is.  They certainly don't hate each other.  I do wish that the slavery thing could have been a point of no return for him (taking an elven slave would have been a good reason for him to break up).

At a couple of points Fenris acknowledges that they disagree on many things, but there does seem to be a respect for Hawke.  But I prefer the rivalry romance.  It certainly makes the 3 year gap in between acts 2 and 3 make a lot more sense.

[ReallyRue]

The rivalry romance with Anders makes little sense to me. Anders' whole point of being and every waking thought seems to be on freeing mages. Opposing that (and by extension, his own freedom) doesn't seem like it would make sense for a romance, especially unsettling because as he's almost as sentimental with a rivalryHawke as a friendshipHawke. I still proclaims his love, which I find odd. She's telling him all mages are dangerous and belong in Circles, the next he's telling her he's in love.

[sonoko]

Ryzaki wrote...

Giving all the mages to the circle can be justified (easily truthfully) by not wanting them to get caught by the Templars anyway and facing worst punishment. (And heck a diplomatic Hawke will even say so.) 

I wish there were different outcomes in such situations: e.g. if you free mages you get friendship points, if you send them to the Circle for the sake of their safety - you get rivalry points, but if you send them there because you believe all mages are dangerous - you get hostility points or something like this.  Currently in DA2 one can hate mages on principle and romance Anders or Merril at the same time (or be a slavery-supporting blood mage and romance Fenris) - it often looks odd and unrealistic, as if characters are shizophrenic or mazochistic or have problems with memory.

My point is that now it depends entirely on players how they build their rivalmances: WE can play them as either more realistic and justifiable or utterly ridiculous. I just wish odd rivalmances were impossible. 

[Rheia]

ejoslin wrote...

Asdara wrote...

The rivalmance of Anders, Merrill, Isabella, and - once for a lark - Sebastian "make sense" to me and feel like I am the kind of partner who challenges them, but ultimately cares about them too. Obviously, this is in part because they hold some fairly uncommon character quirks that make a good issue for my character to be working on with them. Sort of like the teenage habit of finding someone who "You could help if you were only closer to them" (guys may not get that way, I know most of my female friends went through this stage at least once though and I with them).

The Fenris one though... just doesn't lend itself to that idea as well. I think because he's already got so much baggage that he displays pretty obviously - taking up another issue with him is just poking him with a sharp stick because you can. I guess you could presume that he falls in love with Hawke even if they are mean because he's got a complex that drives him to be devoted to a figure that appears to be his chief source of protection. That isn't as familiar a dynamic for most of us though and it wears a little uncomfortably.

I think a Fenris rivalmance with a mage makes a lot of sense.  You don't have to be mean to him -- you just have to be a mage.

In a rivalmance with him, he acknowledges it's time to let go of the hate that has been driving him.  I like that part of it.  In the friendmance he says something about the future instead.

I can't be friends with Merrill for some reason.  Her rivalry is usually maxed out before act 3.  She just disapproves of everything my Hawkes do.

Regarding Fenris, I agree: if Hawke indulges in benefits of slavery, that SHOULD be a breaking point for romance, hell, it should probably be a breaking point for his loyalty/respect as well.

Not killing slavers because Hawke doesn't wish to risk the life of a hostage is quite different from taking a slave for themselves. In the first case, just rivalry points are fine. In the second, I don't think they are quite enough.

I understand people who are frustrated about filling the rivalry meter: ping-ponging back and forth based on disagreing on one major issue, while being in accord regarding the other (Fenris mage views/slavery is probably the best example there is) can be a bit frustrating. However, I do think that there are enough leeway to fill the meter one way or the other without gaming the system too much if you keep the companion in the party constantly.
-----
To answer the original question,  I'm a big fan of rivalry path romances, I find them more satisfying. It strikes a chord with me that people can fall in love despite wanting to strangle each other on the occasion, and be there for each other despite their different believes.

Modifié par Rheia, 16 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[Rifneno]

KJandrew wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I haven't even tried them.  I find it a odd decision at best.  Only in badly written TV shows and movies do people jump straight into bed from wanting to tear each other's heads off.

You've obviously never heard angry sex then

Angry sex or make-up sex with someone you genuinely care about and had an occasional argument with is a whole different matter than jumping into bed with someone that totally goes against what you believe in.  This isn't regular vs decaff, these are characters literally willing to die for their causes and they're just fine and dandy with rivalmancing a Hawke that's actively working for their opposition.  No, that's no realistic and it's not the same thing as a married couple going to bed after an argument.

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
There IS a point in Anders romance where he will dump Hawke if Hawke does something particularly heinous in Anders' eyes.

And it's the one action that can't really be justified. 

For those curious it's making a deal with Torpor for Feyrnriel's soul and killing Anders when he attacks you for it. 

Giving all the mages to the circle can be justified (easily truthfully) by not wanting them to get caught by the Templars anyway and facing worst punishment. (And heck a diplomatic Hawke will even say so.) 

This was a great scene.  I took the demon's deal one time just to see what would happen and reloaded after talking to Anders.  Again, great scene full of emotion.  Talks about how he's just haunted by the memory of her striking him down and what the demon could've offered to make her turn on him.  I felt so bad for the poor guy.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rivalrymance with Anders is trying to get him to see compromise is possible. And that Vengeance is a demon and not good for him, defintely not a force he should be listening to about tactical advice for better lives for mages.

Oh it can be abusive, manipulative petty and cruel (but so can anything if you do it a certain way). But it can also be trying to stop him from making things worse. For both himself and other mages.

At least that's how I saw it.

Once the rivalry ending is fixed I'll be able to expand on this.

This!! So much!

SPOILER!!

The Rivalry path with Anders (Even without the romance) had my heart in knots. When I confronted him about lying well before the Chantry went BOOM.... That scene was so heartbreaking. His extremist way of trying to force my Hawke to think as he does.... (Stuffing his manifesto in every nook and cranny at the Hawke mansion etc.) and her not giving an inch because she couldn't bear to see him destroy himself.

But what got to me the most was Justice taking complete control....

"You have given in to sloth........Anders has no need of you."

Hawke: That's Anders' decision to make. Not yours!

"I AM Anders."

And then Anders comes back and asks what happened and that he has these "moments" way more often.

My poor Lady Hawke went away saying "It does not matter. It's quite clear who is in charge here.":crying:

[Rifneno]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rivalrymance with Anders is trying to get him to see compromise is possible. And that Vengeance is a demon and not good for him, defintely not a force he should be listening to about tactical advice for better lives for mages.

Oh it can be abusive, manipulative petty and cruel (but so can anything if you do it a certain way). But it can also be trying to stop him from making things worse. For both himself and other mages.

At least that's how I saw it.

Once the rivalry ending is fixed I'll be able to expand on this.

This!! So much!

SPOILER!!

The Rivalry path with Anders (Even without the romance) had my heart in knots. When I confronted him about lying well before the Chantry went BOOM.... That scene was so heartbreaking. His extremist way of trying to force my Hawke to think as he does.... (Stuffing his manifesto in every nook and cranny at the Hawke mansion etc.) and her not giving an inch because she couldn't bear to see him destroy himself.

But what got to me the most was Justice taking complete control....

"You have given in to sloth........Anders has no need of you."

Hawke: That's Anders' decision to make. Not yours!

"I AM Anders."

And then Anders comes back and asks what happened and that he has these "moments" way more often.

My poor Lady Hawke went away saying "It does not matter. It's quite clear who is in charge here.":crying:

Not to detract from what you're saying, because I agree it's a very good emotional scene...  but I think the manifesto bit was just an attempt at a joke.  Even if you totally agree with him on everything, he still stuffs those things everywhere.  Pretty much everything Hawke can click on in the estate is a joke, and every companion has some bits.  Isabela's are the best, as she usually is when it comes to humor.  Likewise, Aveline will stick "friendly reminders" in the bookcase sometime, books on law, even if you're a paragon of justice.  Err, not twisted spirits, I mean like the concept of justice.  

[Persephone]

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rivalrymance with Anders is trying to get him to see compromise is possible. And that Vengeance is a demon and not good for him, defintely not a force he should be listening to about tactical advice for better lives for mages.

Oh it can be abusive, manipulative petty and cruel (but so can anything if you do it a certain way). But it can also be trying to stop him from making things worse. For both himself and other mages.

At least that's how I saw it.

Once the rivalry ending is fixed I'll be able to expand on this.

This!! So much!

SPOILER!!

The Rivalry path with Anders (Even without the romance) had my heart in knots. When I confronted him about lying well before the Chantry went BOOM.... That scene was so heartbreaking. His extremist way of trying to force my Hawke to think as he does.... (Stuffing his manifesto in every nook and cranny at the Hawke mansion etc.) and her not giving an inch because she couldn't bear to see him destroy himself.

But what got to me the most was Justice taking complete control....

"You have given in to sloth........Anders has no need of you."

Hawke: That's Anders' decision to make. Not yours!

"I AM Anders."

And then Anders comes back and asks what happened and that he has these "moments" way more often.

My poor Lady Hawke went away saying "It does not matter. It's quite clear who is in charge here.":crying:

Not to detract from what you're saying, because I agree it's a very good emotional scene...  but I think the manifesto bit was just an attempt at a joke.  Even if you totally agree with him on everything, he still stuffs those things everywhere.  Pretty much everything Hawke can click on in the estate is a joke, and every companion has some bits.  Isabela's are the best, as she usually is when it comes to humor.  Likewise, Aveline will stick "friendly reminders" in the bookcase sometime, books on law, even if you're a paragon of justice.  Err, not twisted spirits, I mean like the concept of justice.  

I do see the joke in Lady Hawke going "Another manifesto? Really?". But I do remember the Questioning Beliefs where, if you are at Rivalry, you see him writing it almost furiously. And what he read from it made me cringe. Esp. after that hopeful "What do you think?".

And the last bit of your post made me giggle. In a very good way.

[The Angry One]

Persephone wrote...

I do see the joke in Lady Hawke going "Another manifesto? Really?". But I do remember the Questioning Beliefs where, if you are at Rivalry, you see him writing it almost furiously. And what he read from it made me cringe. Esp. after that hopeful "What do you think?".

And the last bit of your post made me giggle. In a very good way.

You know, that particular scene was poignant to me. I wasn't rivalmancing him, but my Hawke was a pro-Templar in a Templar uniform and Anders is frantically scribbling on his manifesto and reading it out, saying "If I only make you change your mind then it's all been worth it!" and Hawke is just staring coldly at him. It was pretty tense.

[Rifneno]

Persephone wrote...

I do see the joke in Lady Hawke going "Another manifesto? Really?". But I do remember the Questioning Beliefs where, if you are at Rivalry, you see him writing it almost furiously. And what he read from it made me cringe. Esp. after that hopeful "What do you think?".

And the last bit of your post made me giggle. In a very good way.

 Anyway, I didn't know you ever actually get a chance to hear any of it.  That's interesting...  I've gotta console debug him to rival sometime just to see that I think.