95 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

I take it you don't value a different playstyle, or the ability to cloak and move around unharmed, or to snipe people without getting hit in the process.

That's your choice. I have more fun playing an Infiltrator than a Soldier, and I have a very hard time understanding why these threads pop up claiming the Infiltrator is useless because Adrenaline Rush has such a high bonus damage.

You may also argue that AR is superior to Cloak, but even if that's the case, you can't conclude that the whole Infitrator class is obsolete. And you gain nothing from doing so either. It's not like you MUST have a 140% damage buff to complete this game.

Modifié par termokanden, 05 mai 2011 - 06:30 .

[AK404]

tonnactus wrote...

The soldier for sure is the better sniper,from the beginning to the end.
The infiltrator has absolutly nothing that made him interesting in the first game: Almost all good tech powers of the engineer,as much weapon damage as one soldier and only little less surviability.

The infiltrator was fairly interesting from the first game, yes.  Also quite boring once you started on the Marksman Commando build, capable of the highest DPS in the game...basically, a soldier with a pistol (the fact that assault rifles were fairly gimped by comparison didn't help matters much).

However, it might be useful to remember that while an Infiltrator might not be as effective at the OSOK as the Widow Soldier, the Widow Soldier cannot do something like take a Viper sniper rifle, force slo-mo, headshot three enemies to strip their defenses for their squad to take out, launch an incineration blast for added damage, take cover, reload, then force slo-mo as he headshots three more with yet another burst through the scope.

Well, technically, they can, but not as quickly.  There seems to be an obsession among some OSOK players with putting the bulk of the squad's offensive power in Shepard's hands, and it's a sad minority that remembers that there are two other squadmates to help shoulder the load.

Modifié par AK404, 05 mai 2011 - 09:01 .

[tonnactus]

termokanden wrote...

I take it you don't value a different playstyle, or the ability to cloak and move around unharmed, or to snipe people without getting hit in the process.

Cloak give the ability to move around unharmed...
As long as you dont get into crossfire.
Also,common troopers often enough take cover everytime shepardt activate cloak.

[tonnactus]

AK404 wrote...

However, it might be useful to remember that while an Infiltrator might not be as effective at the OSOK as the Widow Soldier, the Widow Soldier cannot do something like take a Viper sniper rifle, force slo-mo, headshot three enemies to strip their defenses for their squad to take out, launch an incineration blast for added damage, take cover, reload, then force slo-mo as he headshots three more with yet another burst through the scope.

The mattock doesnt need slow mow for headshots and isnt worser then the viper when it comes to damage.The soldier with heavy inferno ammo also spread damage across an area,without the need to wait for a cooldown.Activate one ammo "power" once and use it the whole mission.

[AK404]

tonnactus wrote...
Cloak give the ability to move around unharmed...As long as you dont get into crossfire.Also,common troopers often enough take cover everytime shepardt activate cloak.

Funny thing, the cloak helps you set up a crossfire when you set up your squad in the right way, and as for enemies ducking for cover once you activate your cloak...well, set your squad up and that's a good thing, as they get out of your line of fire and into yours.

Storm has a time dilation for all classes.  In addition, it all depends where you're running.  Presumably, you're placing yourself behind the enemy or at the flank; if the flank, there's no issue.  If moving to the rear (and hence, behind the enemy), your squad will be catching the enemy's attention.  In most cases, I have Kasumi drop a flashbang to stop up the enemy for a few precious seconds while I move through.

Oh, and for the sniping thing, you don't activate the cloak until you've scoped up. Saves time, and you still get your headshot.

And seriously, the Mattock?  Almost all of the posters here agree that weapon is seriously broken.  Using the Mattock as an argument that the soldier has superior damage, AR or no, is simply silly.  In addition, the Mattock is a semi-automatic weapon, tailor-made for Heightened Adrenaline Rush: before its appearance, Heightened was the 'alternative' AR because it didn't mesh will the other assault rifles, but did go well with Sniper Rifles.  With the Mattock, Heightened now benefits two of the Solider's weapons (three, if he chooses the Claymore); combine this with the Mattock's ridiculous damage, immunity to time dilation, and high rounds per thermal clip, and of course, the Soldier will overpower the Infiltrator.

By comparison, the Infiltrator operates the same either as OSOK or CQC, regardless of her weapon layout (excepting the Widow for OSOK, of course).

Again, we're arguing that the Infiltrator is an interesting and viable class, able to make it through Insanity on its own merits.  It is also, as we have pointed out, more challenging than the Soldier in certain aspects.  The soldier just blasts thrugh everything using superior firepower, while an infiltrator takes a bit more thought.  I have no idea what you're arguing anymore.  Something about 'superiority' or something.

Modifié par AK404, 06 mai 2011 - 01:40 .

[Golden Owl]

tonnactus wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I take it you don't value a different playstyle, or the ability to cloak and move around unharmed, or to snipe people without getting hit in the process.

Cloak give the ability to move around unharmed...
As long as you dont get into crossfire.
Also,common troopers often enough take cover everytime shepardt activate cloak.

Though mooks ducking for cover means nothing when you have used that very same cloak to flank and give them a very nasty suprise from behind......

Personally as a conservative precisionist with a love for tactics in my game play, I find the Widow Infiltrator perfect for my style...and abuse that cloak...the cloak is perfect for tactical approach, love it.......and having tried the other sniper rifles, Widow remains my firm favorite, doesn't take long for the Infiltrator to clear a field with the Widow. Tried the Soldier, just didn't suit my prefered style, didn't find Soldier powers as much use to my game style.

[dreman9999]

No. for one they don't have cloach for CQC infiltator builds nor can they hold down groups with insinerate blast. Infiltators are not only sniper rifles.

[JaegerBane]

Autoclave wrote...

 Adrenaline rush is more than a decent counterpart to cloak. You may have good arguments against it (which I will gladly read) but personally I feel like the AR is better than cloak.

If we forget about damage bonuses, which both powers can give you, what else does cloak bring? Move to cover? AR is very good at that too. You move at same speed while the world is slowed down, and soldier has bonus storm speed for that. And you cannot regen while cloaked. 

So the only other thing I can see on the table is incinerate and AI hack. If I need to destroy armor, I have widow with inferno ammo (which infiltrator does not have). AI hack? I have never been a fan of such sort of skills. I haven't seen many infiltrator builds that focus on AI hack. 

What does Soldier have that Infiltrator doesn't: Shotguns, Assault Rifle and Concussive shot. CS is no big deal, but you can see the overall picture: Infiltrator is more of less is a gimped soldier. 

You've pretty much answered your own question with the above analysis. Essentially, yes, the Widow soldier does render it obsolete.

The main reason for this is a combination of several different factors, but ultimately it boils down to three:

- Adrenaline Rush is overpowered to the point of being broken
- The soldier is unique in that it can carry the Mattock (which is itself broken to the point of absurdity) and the Widow (which, combines with AR, is brutal) as well as the GPS - that is, it can carry all of the most potent weapons in the whole game simultaneously
- The soldier is supposedly a specialist, but unlike the other two specialist classes, can also function as a jack of all trades due to it's ammos and the effects of AR

The combination of these basically means the Soldier eclipses every other class. I kinda hope they at least bring some sort of balance to it in ME3, as it's so powerful that it's boring to play.

[Weiser_Cain]

In a game where literally all eyes are on shepard, it's nice to be unseen from time to time.

[termokanden]

JaegerBane, I agree with you and I don't agree with you at the same time. Sorry for that brilliant statement, but let me try to explain.

I think you're right and they DID make the soldier so powerful you don't "need" the other classes. And you're not going to look at other class skills and go "oh I wish I had this instead of Adrenaline Rush". I'm sorry to soldier fans out there, this is not directed at you, but yes I do think Adrenaline Rush is a bit broken.

But on the other hand I don't think it makes other classes obsolete. They offer different playstyles that simply do not work with a soldier. You're also limiting yourself unnecessarily by saying stuff like this. I did this myself at first and genuinely thought infiltrators were pure crap.

Only recently have I actually gotten over the fact that they get a smaller damage boost when sniping, but I'm really glad I did, because I find it a very fun class to play. In some ways more challenging, but that can also be very rewarding when it works.

[KodiakAsh]

Soldier is nice because it's all in a nice and neat package. They really only have one active skill worth using for their global cool down (AR) and it's a powerful one. The rest of their skills are mostly passives or ammo skills. What's nice about having all those ammo skills (usually up to 3 maxed at any one time with 2 from the Soldier and 1 Advanced Training if chosen) is you don't need to bring anyone else for them so that really frees up your squad to bring whatever else you're lacking.

The real difference for the Infiltrator is you got options with either doing Incinerate Blast (AOE damage that can melt armor, which is great on higher difficulties to get directly into HP) offensively or cloak defensively (or offensively depending on how you play). You got a few ammo options, but any armor you're relying on your Advanced Training or a squad mate (if you want Inferno).

I mean really when we're talking about Widow Sniping almost all of your target are going to be obliterated in one head shot with the right ammo selected (certain things not counted naturally) anyways. Just matters how much other convenience do you want to bring along.

[Weiser_Cain]

The only real downside to Infiltrator is the low ammo for the best rifles. I have easily decimated groups that took down my soldier over and over again, but in the process run out of rounds for the next fight.
(insert complaint about how much the ammo system sucks and makes no sense, especially for snipers)
Even if you do well it's still like playing with another character.

[HTTP 404]

I agree with OP, the soldier is better than the inflitrator however.....

the soldier is boringly too easy at times for me. after several runs on insanity, the game is too easy and soldiering isn't really a challenge. inflitrator is fun in regards to cloaking to find more ammo because of no AR or shotty to use when running out, and using the tempest on enemies while clocked is pretty cool.

[Bogsnot1]

Cloak, elbow of death, headshot (or two) from pistol. Repeat as necessary.
I iz ninja.

[NackterGolfer]

Soldier makes ALL other classes obsolete. Ridiculously overpowered. Especially with DLC weapons. Gonna delete every other career I did, except for soldier.

NOT.

Honestly the game is not really about balance. I find soldier runs funny from time to time, just because it's so easy.
If I want a challenge, I make a NG+ with my engineer. Back to the game.

[termokanden]

Just played a bit of Overlord with my infiltrator. This time I went for AI Hacking. Had a brilliant moment when a Destroyer almost killed me because I missed a couple of critical shots. I hacked it when I had maybe 10% health left and it immediately torched 2 enemies next to it. Shot the tank and it smacked a third down the stairs and into a wall. Hacking + sniping = fun.

Modifié par termokanden, 07 mai 2011 - 01:54 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

JaegerBane, I agree with you and I don't agree with you at the same time. Sorry for that brilliant statement, but let me try to explain.

I think you're right and they DID make the soldier so powerful you don't "need" the other classes. And you're not going to look at other class skills and go "oh I wish I had this instead of Adrenaline Rush". I'm sorry to soldier fans out there, this is not directed at you, but yes I do think Adrenaline Rush is a bit broken.

But on the other hand I don't think it makes other classes obsolete. They offer different playstyles that simply do not work with a soldier. You're also limiting yourself unnecessarily by saying stuff like this. I did this myself at first and genuinely thought infiltrators were pure crap.

Only recently have I actually gotten over the fact that they get a smaller damage boost when sniping, but I'm really glad I did, because I find it a very fun class to play. In some ways more challenging, but that can also be very rewarding when it works.

Don't get me wrong Termo, I'm no soldier-only player. Quite the opposite, the reason the Adept is my fave class is that it strikes a balance between shooting and physics effects and, in order to play it to it's potential, you have to think about every single encounter you have. It means, for me at least, the class has never gotten old.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'limiting' myself, I rate the Infiltrator second behind the Adept in terms of enjoyment for much the same reasons as the Adept, in that it's such an interesting class.

That doesn't change the fact that the soldier is so unbalanced that it effectively means the other classes can't compete when it comes to raw effectiveness. Practically any concievable situation for the Soldier can be solved by selecting the gun best suited to the given range and activating AR. I've actually only completed one soldier playthrough in the several dozen overall playthroughs I've made, mainly because it was such a boring class. But it's boring because it's so powerful.

[AK404]

You know what, though? While a Widow soldier does hit harder than an infiltrator, there is something to be said about speed.

When a Collector platform is incoming, who do you think is more likely to land three headshots with a Widow before it touches down? Sure, not all of them are going to die because of the Cloak cooldown, but they've just been softened up big time.

[Kronner]

Actually, I think Soldier without DLC weapons is not OP at all. Pick the Revenant, and you're not gonna be more powerful than any other class. Rev Soldier is really fun to play imho.

It's the Firepower pack's Mattock that made Soldier ridiculously broken.

Modifié par Kronner, 09 mai 2011 - 09:16 .

[termokanden]

Well obviously you're not limiting yourself then. But this thread is about the infiltrator being obsolete because soldier is more powerful. My opinion is that if you think that way and just pick a soldier instead every time, you're blocking yourself from trying out different kinds of gameplay.

I also think the notion that infiltrators are somehow not powerful enough is a bit ridiculous, and their class passive alone makes them very good snipers. Since they are more than powerful enough, it's not like you'll feel bad about picking a weak class. You shouldn't at least.

When a Collector platform is incoming, who do you think is more likely to land three headshots with a Widow before it touches down? Sure, not all of them are going to die because of the Cloak cooldown, but they've just been softened up big time

This is a point I've been trying to make before. Infiltrators and Soldiers can both one-shot normal enemies on any difficulty with the Widow. But the infiltrator never has to wait for sniper cooldown, and they can use Cloak if needed to get a clear shot without being hit in the process. Soldier clearly becomes the superior sniper when we're talking about raw damage output against larger targets. But for the purpose I use my sniper rifle most of the time, infiltrators are actually ever so slightly better.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 mai 2011 - 09:18 .

[lolwut666]

I just beat the entire Shadow Broker DLC on Insanity without a single death and using the following build:

Warp 2
Heavy Throw
Singularity 3
Pull Field
Improved Shockwave
Nemesis
Barrier 1

The last time I beat it was with a Vanguard, and I died 3 times using this build:

Inferno Ammo
Squad Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Shockwave 1
Destroyer
Heavy Slam

Granted, the Vanguard has a tendency to die, but I still did better with a low-DPS class stripped of its only direct damage-inflicting power (Warp).

DPS is not everything.

Modifié par lolwut666, 09 mai 2011 - 09:15 .

[termokanden]

Well LotSB is Adept paradise pretty much. I also had my smoothest run there with an Adept.

[AK404]

*coolio voice* I wish I could spend more time in that biotic paradise.

[Autoclave]

Originally I forgot to write that
1. AR has a shorter cool down than cloak
2. Soldier has much more health than infiltrator. With hardened AR and right armor components you can reach as high as 750 effective health (500 + 50% damage reduction), all this while you receive significantly less shots during bullet time. Factor in the 1 second of "invulnerability" when your shields go down and your health is not draining.

[AK404]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

The only real downside to Infiltrator is the low ammo for the best rifles. I have easily decimated groups that took down my soldier over and over again, but in the process run out of rounds for the next fight.

Strangely enough, I've never had this problem: I almost always pick up enough clips after battle to refill my Widow.  So long as you're always making headshots and using your sniper rifle in conjuction with your other weapons (like using your SMG to strip defenses from targets at mid-range in order to soften them up for your squadmates, then using your sniper rifle to take out heavies, engineers, krogan, and other priority targets), you should be fine.