251 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

hex23 wrote...
The objective isn't to prove her innocence. You need her on your team to fight the Collectors. Hell, she joins your team before the trial even becomes a plot point.

Then what pray tell is the point of the mission?
To gain her 'loyalty'? A Dev constructed game mechanic that decides who lives and who dies on the SM?
In universe I think it'd be safe to assume that Shepard already believes her to be completely loyal, considering he's worked with her before and was the one who helped her complete her pilgrimage.

[PMC65]

GodWood wrote...

hex23 wrote...
The objective isn't to prove her innocence. You need her on your team to fight the Collectors. Hell, she joins your team before the trial even becomes a plot point.

Then what pray tell is the point of the mission?
To gain her 'loyalty'? A Dev constructed game mechanic that decides who lives and who dies on the SM?
In universe I think it'd be safe to assume that Shepard already believes her to be completely loyal, considering he's worked with her before and was the one who helped her complete her pilgrimage.

To be honest, I thought Garrus & Tali should have come with their loyalty already placed. Their missions could have been a side mission that may have lost their loyalty but should not have been about gaining their loyalty. Just my point of view.

[Empiro]

Loyalty is really a game mechanic term. The in game explanation is that they don't have any distractions, and have higher morale, because they've "made their peace" so to speak.

I bit contrived I'd agree.

Modifié par Empiro, 16 avril 2011 - 07:06 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If Renegades win with much less because they're that awesome, then I'd have to agree with Bioware that they really did reward each based on their choices... except there's no conflict of morality with Paragons like there is with Renegades (in the game world).

You're never really chastised for a Paragon choice, practically everyone always agrees with the Paragon options.

[KainrycKarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Doing something, for a friend.....is selfish?


lolwut

lol, for realz, dawg

Covering up the crimes of a criminal who gots dozens of people killed all so that his daughter doesn't have her feelings hurt is totally the morally upstanding thing to do.

You see, it is crap like this that proves that Renegades are ultimately better people. Paragons have messed up priorities.

Selfish, and the right thing to do, are a little bit different in this case.

I didn't say covering up the crimes of a criminal was the right to do.

I did say, that helping a friend who doesn't want their family's name tarnished is not selfish, even if it is potentially harmful in the bigger picture.

Also, stop making this big line between renegade and paragon. I'm not a paragon. I'm not a renegade. I do whatever seems like the best option available to me in each given situation, regardless of where it lies on the "morality" scale of ME.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 16 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

GodWood wrote...

hex23 wrote...
The objective isn't to prove her innocence. You need her on your team to fight the Collectors. Hell, she joins your team before the trial even becomes a plot point.

Then what pray tell is the point of the mission?
To gain her 'loyalty'? A Dev constructed game mechanic that decides who lives and who dies on the SM?
In universe I think it'd be safe to assume that Shepard already believes her to be completely loyal, considering he's worked with her before and was the one who helped her complete her pilgrimage.

"What brings you here, spirit?"
"Your welfare!" 
"An unbroken night's sleep would aid my welfare."
"Your salvation, then!" 

Words words words. Loyalty means loyalty in some of the cases. In others, it's more oblique - it's basically clarity of the mind. Lack of distraction. I would have preferred it be called "focus" rather than loyalty, but that has less of a ring to it.

In one scenario, you're willing to let Tali be worried and unfocused. In the other, you calm her mind but hurt any chance you have of possibly influencing or using the fleet in the future.

[Elite Midget]

NoxNoctum wrote...

Uh pretty much all the renegade decisions are just whether or not to let some criminal live or just throw him out the window/blast his head off. Either that or not taking BS from someone, which is just a different (better IMO as history as shown) style of leadership: see Patton. Or making some tough choice about whether to sacrifice certain people to save some other people. Or not talking to some ****** reporter about top secret stuff. I mean cmon.

I can't really remember ANY that involved backstabbing teammates or anything like that.

Renegades aren't "evil", they just get the job done regardless of the cost. Which is what probably MOST people would do if they were faced with an enemy that threatened to wipe out all sentient organic life.

Wasen't Patton killed in an 'accident' after the war ended though? By accident I mean a 'very' suspicious coincidence that he died after the war was over and they didn't need him anymore. Many speculate that he was murdered because he was too much a BA that was only kept around when he was useful to them. With the war over he really wasen't that useful anymore and he pissed off a lot of powerful people so... Yeah.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 16 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[hero3440]

You do know that if you have enough Renegade points you can still prove Tali innocence without handing over the evidence you just give epic speech instead?

[GodWood]

So really this thread has nothing to do with the OP believing Renegades can't win?
In reality you just can't seem to wrap your head around the idea of condemning a war-criminal and successfully completing your mission (preventing Tali from being exiled) because it makes Tali upset for a while.

[AdmiralCheez]

GodWood wrote...

So really this thread has nothing to do with the OP believing Renegades can't win?
In reality you just can't seem to wrap your head around the idea of condemning a war-criminal and successfully completing your mission (preventing Tali from being exiled) because it makes Tali upset for a while.

Probably this.

I did it for Energy Drain.

[Vanaer]

I thought renegades were just a human Saren (liek what he did in the first book with the Batarian survivor) - cutting corners to get to your goal.

But I don't think solely renegades will be punished; I'm quite sure some of the paragon decisions will backfire. I mean, the Krogan will not become more peacefull when you give them the cure (now). Trusting that ant was a huge leap of faith; they're singers too, and we all know artists aren't known for their loyalty during marriages. 

Modifié par Vanaer, 16 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[ObserverStatus]

I have a few ideas.

1. Trick harbinger into sleeping with Morinth.
2. Kill tIM, take over cerberus, an build a fleet of thorian creeper reapers.
3. Epic renegade interrupt.

[PMC65]

Vanaer wrote...

I thought renegades were just a human Saren (liek what he did in the first book with the Batarian survivor) - cutting corners to get to your goal.

But I don't think solely renegades will be punished; I'm quite sure some of the paragon decisions will backfire. I mean, the Krogan will not become more peacefull when you give them the cure (now). Trusting that ant was a huge leap of faith; they're singers too, and we all know artists aren't known for their loyalty during marriages. 

No good deed goes unpunished .... see Britain's prime minister Neville Chamberlain's biography. Peace is not always the answer. There is a season for everything and right now in the ME galaxy it is the season to sow a little REAP.

[Draconis6666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lol, for realz, dawg

Covering up the crimes of a criminal who gots dozens of people killed all so that his daughter doesn't have her feelings hurt is totally the morally upstanding thing to do.

You see, it is crap like this that proves that Renegades are ultimately better people. Paragons have messed up priorities.

The Ruthless background says otherwise IMO, getting countless numbers of your soldiers killed because you didnt want to take prisoners because YOU personally felt like they needed to suffer is anything but being a good person or focusing on your priorities as a Commanding officer, your priority is to accomplish the set mission objectives with minimal losses to your own troops not to use them as meatshields to sate your own desire to see every alien on Torfan butchered. If being Renegade is always about being such a Badass then you should have gone and killed them all yourself since your so awesome.

Paragons are not any more or less better people than Renegades or vice versa, both have rediculously stupid slants on various subjects in which one is and idiot and the other isnt, then in the next situation the other is an idiot and the first one no longer is. Renegades go from doing things because its for the greater good, to acting like a juvenile antisocial as*hole and then back to doing whats most practical. Paragons go from doing things because it will save lives to making stupid decisions that could ultimately doom untold billions of innocents because of spur of the moment misguided morality.

Honestly pure Renegade and Pure Paragon are both idiots in different ways.

[PMC65]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Honestly pure Renegade and Pure Paragon are both idiots in different ways.

Amen! (raises mug of ale)

[Taritu]

And, since the "war criminal" is dead, what difference does it make if you reveal his crimes? You're not covering up a crime for someone who can do it again, and Tali has earned some compassion from you. Revealing it doesn't make the admirals who agree with Tali's father unable to use his data, nor vice-versa. The choice is "hurt a woman now living for no benefit" or "don't hurt a woman now living for no benefit", you aren't preventing any future crimes either way.

[GuardianAngel470]

I don't think either side will be punished. Rather, what I see happening is both sides reach the same goal but they each get there differently. That's been the theme across two games now.

If you think about it, it falls right in like with what the Devs have said about a third person narrative. To make an example using in game stories I would say that Paragons will be the War Hero background while Renegades will be the Ruthless background.

On one hand, you have gallant heroism and rallying of the people to defend the galaxy. On the other, you have ruthless application of resources and a Coventry-style approach to war.

Both will result in a win but in two different ways. I personally would be fine with that. Though it makes all the large decisions basically moot (in that critical mission failure endings never happen) but it would also free up the devs to make smaller choices more meaningful.

[Taritu]

As for which is better, I'm guessing Paragon makes things slightly easier, but that there are some paragon decisions that come to bite you. For example, in Tali's loyalty mission, if you give the data to the admiral he's much more willing to help humanity when the Geth are reprogrammed by the Quarians, and if you don't he's all "humanity could have benefitted, but since you lied, screw you." Saving the Rachni could lead to them being reindoctrinated, as another example.

I don't see the genophage as being that big a deal, even if it does blow up in a paragon's face, it won't do so till after the Reapers are dealt with, the Krogan have a lot of breeding to do. My guess there is that it depends on whether Wrex is alive, if he is, curing it is long term a good idea, because he's changing Krogan society in some good ways, if he isn't, curing it will lead to another Krogan war.

And keeping the collector base could have major benefits for Renegades.

My guess is that a lot of things will be double edged swords. The Rachni are good, if you take the time to make sure they don't get indoctrinated. The base is good if you do certain missions so you can use it without indoctrination, being Paragon to the Geth/Quarians will require you to spend more time fixing their issues, making them kiss and make up, than just allowing the Quarians to enslave the Geth.

[Taritu]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Taritu wrote...

And, since the "war criminal" is dead, what difference does it make if you reveal his crimes?

I don't know, why don't you ask the families of the people he got killed?

It's going to be satisfying when years later the truth comes out and as a consquence both Tali and her father are shamed, their reputations and legacy destroyed.

People who all appear to have been volunteers, and believed in what he was doing, and are therefore war criminals themselves?  Even if they didn't believe, and the logs indicate they do, "following orders" doesn't cut it when it comes to war crimes.  I'm sure their families will be thrilled to know they were war criminals.  And, still, what good will it do?  What future harm are you preventing in your need to shame a dead man?  And if his research leads to reclaiming the Quarian homeworld, well, when it comes out, Rael will be the greatest hero in Quarian history.

Modifié par Taritu, 16 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[Taritu]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Taritu wrote...

People who all appear to have been volunteers...

You really think they volunteered to be murdered by Rael's incompetence? Every single person on that ship? Oh my, this forum really puts my patience through its paces.

Also, I don't think the FAMILIES[ of the victims volunteered for anything. I think they have the right to know the truth about their loved one's deaths. I think the entire fleet deserves to know the truth about what happened, or at the very least, the Admiralty Board does.

Oh god, you people are going to be the death of me.

Oh spare me, they knew the risks.  They were working on a black operation being kept from the other admirals.  Your irrational unwillingness to admit this is tiresome.  If he was a war criminal, so were they.  I'm sure their families will be thrilled to find out.

Your patience?  Ha.  You're pushing your point too far, there may be some "right to know", but the war criminal talk combined with "families" is just tiresome.  If Rael's a war criminal, so are the people who worked for him.  That's how war crimes work, "following orders" doesn't cut it, and in any case, there is little reason to believe they weren't true believers.

And telling the admiralty changes nothing.  Some of them are still for it, some of them are still against it.  Changes nothing, and hurts and alienates Tali, and for what?  What's the benefit?  A bunch of families who now know their loved ones were war criminals too?