251 réponses à ce sujet

[PMC65]

Taritu wrote...

I don't see the genophage as being that big a deal, even if it does blow up in a paragon's face, it won't do so till after the Reapers are dealt with, the Krogan have a lot of breeding to do. My guess there is that it depends on whether Wrex is alive, if he is, curing it is long term a good idea, because he's changing Krogan society in some good ways, if he isn't, curing it will lead to another Krogan war.

The krogans are really iffy ... yes. Wrex is trying to lead them on a different path but every krogran that I speak to isn't joining his band wagon. He makes me think of Shepard. When Shepard's gone everything falls apart. If you cure the genophage based on Wrex then you are looking at an anomaly in their society. The krogans WAR!

[lovgreno]

Actualy I think the renegade could become very heroic if written well. Think about it, he wants to put his race first (wich is rather understandable in this dog eat dog galaxy) and he sees Cerberus as perhaps not a good choice but for the moment the only choice of people to work for. And now he sees it all crumble down as Ceberus has gone from a ally he supported to a liability. Earth is crippled by the reaper attack. He now has to ask the aliens he distrusted (often for good reasons) for help.

He has to swallow his pride and admit he was wrong.

It's easy for us to say: "Act like a man and do whatever it takes! You should kiss the batarians boots and be thankfull for it if that's what it takes!" But have many of us actualy been forced to do something like that in our lives?

If this is the hard choices renegade Shep would have to do I think he may actualy be a bigger hero than paragon Shep who may have it easier by just saying: "told you so!"

These are of course just wild speculations as long as ME3 isn't released.

[Schattenkeil]

A pure renegade course would be one of fear and control. Since renegades do not let ethical considerations restrain them, they are likely technologcially superiour, they are more likely to have an army of husks on their own. And there are simlar things, cloned rachni warrior, with an own variant of reaper implants to control them, or simply taking control of the geth. Using the reaper's own indoctrination to get people to fight them. Allies would be controlled through fear - of the reapers and Shepard him- or herself.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 16 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[PMC65]

Schattenkeil wrote...

A pure renegade course would be one of fear and control. Since renegades do not let ethical considerations restrain them, they are likely technologcially superiour, they are more likely to have an army of husks on their own. And there are simlar things, cloned rachni warrior, with an own variant of reaper implants to control them, or simply taking control of the geth. Using the reaper's own indoctrination to get people to fight them. Allies would be controlled through fear - of the reapers and Shepard him- or herself.

The "allies" had no problem seeing a species wiped out and another diminished in numbers by a semi-sterilization program. They understand "hard choices" better than we "humans" do. As the Turian spectre told Shepard in the 1st game that the galaxy was not Legoland. They see us as children who try and bully our way through. They don't knock us for the violence, they knock us for our idealism. IMO.

[GuardianAngel470]

Seriously, why are people arguing about war crimes conducted? Those responsible are all dead, justice has been served and telling one group or another what happened is meaningless. They can't try the war criminals and any response is simply petty.

What really would have been gained by telling them? Do you expect that telling the admiralty board will somehow further the cause of destroying the geth? If so, you aren't seeking justice but your own ends. You're in effect doing exactly what the ignorant admiralty board is doing.

I can understand reporting Rael's actions to the admiralty board if he was still alive because then he could be tried and punished. That would be the right thing to do.

But he's dead along with everyone else on that ship. Trying them posthumously is meaningless because doing the whole paragon/renegade dialog choices gets Shepard the same effect. By choosing one of those dialog options, Shepard can sway the admiralty board just fine toward war or peace so actually giving them the evidence gains nothing.

[Bluko]

Well considering the canon Shepard is mostly Renegade and is inclined to be Renegade (Earthborn and Sole Survivor) I'm going to go out on a limb and that say Renegades will be just fine.

Truthfully I doubt everything will work out perfect for Paragons. Something tells me the Geth Rewrite and Saving the Rachni Queen decisions will likely entail some negative effects. You'll see different consequences hopefully, but Rengades and Paragons will essentially be no worse or better off. As for the council that one should be really obvious. You either have the Destiny Ascension and the orginal council (Paragon) or you have much stronger human fleet and a human council (Renegade). Niether one of those choices leaves you worse off militarily. Also Aliens object to Humans simply being on or leading the council anyways. True aliens may be more willing to work with Shepard the Paragon way, but Renegade Shepard and Humans can more or less force the aliens in line.

Paragons are about using Diplomacy to gain allies and solve problems, Renegades are about using Brute Force to gain allies and solve problems. There's no advantage, it's simply which options/path do you like more?

Truthfully Renegades had the advantage in ME1 due largely being able to gain more XP, etc. from missions by killing everyone. In ME2 they're are more or less equal in terms of everything. Although regaining Spectre status as a Paragon has some mild benefits.


Of course this allies issue is a part of the problem when you put stock into the belief that simply having a bigger galactic fleet will be more useful. I don't think it's possible to beat the Reapers by simple military might. Frankly it should be impossible. The key to winning will be finding the Reapers' weakness, as powerful as they are are they must still have some. You cannot make something that is completely strong, without making something completely weak.

Besides we know if all else fails when can destroy the Mass Relays and isolate the Reapers for years or decades.

Modifié par Bluko, 16 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[GodWood]

Taritu wrote...
I don't see the genophage as being that big a deal, even if it does blow up in a paragon's face, it won't do so till after the Reapers are dealt with, the Krogan have a lot of breeding to do. My guess there is that it depends on whether Wrex is alive, if he is, curing it is long term a good idea, because he's changing Krogan society in some good ways, if he isn't, curing it will lead to another Krogan war.

Curing the genophage would completly screw up the system Wrex has in place.

[Ieldra]

hex23 wrote...
During Tali's Loyalty mission if you give the evidence over to the trial that implicates her father, that is 30 Renegade points. She is found not guilty but she isn't Loyal. Why? Because she begged you not to do that, and you did anyway.

That's not being an a*****. That's telling a governing body the truth about an important matter. I don't see why you get Renegade points for that. It could be argued it's the Paragon decision, and lying about something this important to the Board is the Renegade one. But no, again Paragon is the "feel-good" decision that, by the way these work in ME,  leaves you with a happy teammate and no bad consequences.

[Legbiter]

I'm a paragon who blows up the heretics, kills off the rachni, takes almost all of the renegade interrupts (except beating up Mouse). A prince to my friends, an implacable foe to my enemies.

[LadyJaneGrey]

hex23 wrote...

And regardless of your justification for handing over the info, a friend....or at the very least a team mate....asked you not to. Again, if you're willing to betray their trust, what would you do to other people? It doesn't really paint you as a trustworthy leader.

You'll notice Shepard never actually agrees not to use the information in Tali's trial; the line is "we'll see."  If Shepard said "alright, I won't reveal the evidence" and proceeded to do so...then it would be a betrayal of trust.

Also, agreeing to any teammate's desires or expectations ONLY because Shepard wants them to trust him/her would be irresponsible.  Jack stated she wants revenge on the families and friends of anyone connected with Cerberus; if Jack asked Shepard to help her in this, should Shepard agree  to keep her trust?  

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 16 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[Thrombin]

I actually think Renegade Shepard earns the trust and respect of his crew anyway. He may not always do what they want but they respect his decision and, in many cases, come to think the same way as him over time.

A loyal Renegade crew will follow Shepard to the ends of the earth just as fervently as a loyal Paragon crew, in my opinion, because a Renegade crew respects his strength and decisiveness even when he doesn't pander to their every request.

Regards

Julian

Modifié par Thrombin, 16 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[FlyinElk212]

hex23 wrote...
If you spent the last few years pissing off everyone around you, betraying team mates, getting people killed either through incompetance or indifference....who would answer your call when it came time to fight the Reapers? Realistically, no one.

If you tell two people in a room who hate each other to work together in order to avoid the bullets coming their way, they'll work together. They won't let their hatred for each other prevent themselves from living.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 16 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[Jzadek72]

I play mostly paragon, like you, but the renegades look like they'll have it easier to me. Collector base and whatnot.

[KenKenpachi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I never play 100% Paragon or Renegade. But from what I gather, Renegades are the BA's. They do what they want when they want to and even if everything falls around them, they themselves will win. That's how it's worked so far.

I suspect thats how it will play out, with shep as some sort of leader of the council if your a renegade. But you'll be seen as Stalin was by most.

If you go around being a dick and pissing everyone off, don't be surprised when they all come out to kill you at some point. Even the strongest can be pulled down by the weak if they have the numbers. I mean really go out IRL and be a dick to everyone, see how long till your found dead in a ditch.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Renegade =/= pissing off companions or failing loyalty quests.
You can fail those being paragon too.

This. 

You can also save rachni, wrex and so on being renegade. 

One doesn't exclude being the other. 

[jamesp81]

hex23 wrote...

I play mostly Paragon....not 100% Paragon because in some cases it's too much. Some people need to be shot.

Anyway, I don't see how it's possible for hardline Renegades to succeed. I'm not saying this because I prefer Paragon....hell, I think you should play the game however you want. But most of the big Renegade choices have you pissing off and/or alienating half the galaxy, be it your own crew, or people who've only met you once. 

I'm not saying I agree with this design choice, but it would be crazy if Bioware made it virtually impossible for hardcore Renegades to beat the Reapers. Again, I'm not promoting this....but it kinda makes sense. If you spent the last few years pissing off everyone around you, betraying team mates, getting people killed either through incompetance or indifference....who would answer your call when it came time to fight the Reapers? Realistically, no one. It would be a direct way for Bioware to show that there is consequences to what we do in this game.

I have a theory on this.

I think the ending to ME3, regardless of alignment, will have Earth and the rest of the galaxy surviving the Reapers, and the Reapers being killed.  Humanity's position as a major power will be secured.  What will be different, is how that happens.

Paragons will exert great effort to save as many people as possible.  As a result, more humans on Earth may die (this might be the difference between 1/4 of the population dying and 1/2 the population dying), but many more people on other worlds will be saved.  The galaxy will be grateful for humanity's sacrifice, raising our stature.  In the short term, the Council will gladly send their fleets to our colonies to defend them while we fix the damage.  The galaxy respects humanity and maybe even fears us a bit, and everyone feels secure that humanity is always on guard against threats.

Renegades will focus their efforts on saving as many humans as possible.  As a result, losses to human civilians and military forces will be much lower, relatively, compared to other races.  Again, Earth, humanity, and the other races survive, but the other races are severely weakened, leaving humanity the strongest player on the galactic stage.

[Ultai]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

hex23 wrote...

And regardless of your justification for handing over the info, a friend....or at the very least a team mate....asked you not to. Again, if you're willing to betray their trust, what would you do to other people? It doesn't really paint you as a trustworthy leader.

You'll notice Shepard never actually agrees not to use the information in Tali's trial; the line is "we'll see."  If Shepard said "alright, I won't reveal the evidence" and proceeded to do so...then it would be a betrayal of trust.

Also, agreeing to any teammate's desires or expectations ONLY because Shepard wants them to trust him/her would be irresponsible.  Jack stated she wants revenge on the families and friends of anyone connected with Cerberus; if Jack asked Shepard to help her in this, should Shepard agree  to keep her trust?  

Interesting, I wonder how many people let a dev created game mechanic cloud their judgment, or how far they'll go to keep "loyalty" with their squadmates.  My canon turns over the evidence, and I was pleased to see Tali survive the SM regardless.

[ExtremeOne]

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

[Seboist]

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

It's sadly becoming more and more apparent that ME has about as much "choice" as a JRPG.

[ExtremeOne]

Seboist wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

It's sadly becoming more and more apparent that ME has about as much "choice" as a JRPG.

  


The sad thing is the only choice Bioware gives a dam about is the paragon choices. ME 3 is nothing but a big fat suck up letter to the paragons for ME 2. I agree with your comment 

[lovgreno]

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

Modifié par lovgreno, 16 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[Digifi]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it is way too early for doom and gloom. The VS fans were convinced for a while there that the VS wouldn't be in ME3. Some people were convinced all characters from the first 2 games would essentially disappear in the third. So saying renegades are eff'd at this point is premature.

One example I can think of that might support the two paths theory would be the heretic geth/collector base. You probably gain some bit of insight on the reapers from the heretic geth if you're paragon but you won't have much intel from the collector base. If you're renegade its the opposite. Also, the collector base might be a source of shock troops for the renegades and the paragons will have rachni shock troops (it will be interesting to try a full trilogy meta-game playthrough after you know what each choice does).

[aimlessgun]

Surprise!, Para/Ren can be interpreted in many different ways because all of morality is jammed into a binary system. So Renegade covers not only cutting corners to do a more effective job, it covers cutting corners to reduce personal risk, it covers being a badass, and it covers just being an ****. And more that I'm forgetting.

To say that Renegades can't win because they alienate and backstab people is cherry picking a tiny part of what the game decides is 'renegade', when the vast majority of renegade players don't think backstabbing their allies is at all associated with what they do.