Aller au contenu

Photo

I don't see how Renegades can "win" in Mass Effect 3


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
251 réponses à ce sujet

#101
ExtremeOne

ExtremeOne
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

lovgreno wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

  



Oh I disagree Mass Effect 3 is nothing but a big F U to us Cerberus fans as well a clear example that us renegades mean nothing as far as our choices go. Bioware has screwed us renegades a lot in fact in ME 2 we had no real way of dealing with utter garabge that went down on Horizion with the VS crap. and then when we learned Anderson sent spies to spy on Shepard we were screwed with no real way to get revenge. They have flat out lied from Mass Effect 1 that choice matters in these games and that renegade and paragon matters but now we come to the 3rd game and find out Oh Paragon fans you and your side is the way ME 3 will be. There are ways of getting revenge  

#102
JKoopman

JKoopman
  • Members
  • 1 441 messages
I'm having trouble understanding how handing over the evidence in Tali's trial is "backstabbing" Tali. Granted, I've always just called the Admiralty on their BS and gotten Tali off the hook, but wouldn't telling the truth, handing over evidence that condemns a war criminal and sparing Tali from exile (whether she ultimately wants you to or not) actually be more "Paragon" than lying to the Admiralty Board and essentially throwing Tali to the wolves resulting in her permanent exile from her people?

Sometimes being Renegade means making the choices that are difficult but ultimately the right thing to do. Exposing Rael'Zorah's crimes and clearing Tali's name is the right thing to do, even if Tali hates you for it (though she actually seems rather understanding about it, judging from her dialog post-trial). Tali's whole life has been dedicated to the Flotilla and her people, and she was going to throw all that away out of some unwarranted emotional sense of loyalty to her dead father...

#103
ExtremeOne

ExtremeOne
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

JKoopman wrote...

I'm having trouble understanding how handing over the evidence in Tali's trial is "backstabbing" Tali. Granted, I've always just called the Admiralty on their BS and gotten Tali off the hook, but wouldn't telling the truth, handing over evidence that condemns a war criminal and sparing Tali from exile (whether she ultimately wants you to or not) actually be more "Paragon" than lying to the Admiralty Board and essentially throwing Tali to the wolves resulting in her permanent exile from her people?

Sometimes being Renegade means making the choices that are difficult but ultimately the right thing to do. Exposing Rael'Zorah's crimes and clearing Tali's name is the right thing to do, even if Tali hates you for it (though she actually seems rather understanding about it, judging from her dialog post-trial). Tali's whole life has been dedicated to the Flotilla and her people, and she was going to throw all that away out of some unwarranted emotional sense of loyalty to her dead father...

  


The Renegade choice in tali's trail is the right one 

#104
JKoopman

JKoopman
  • Members
  • 1 441 messages

twisty77 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Council decision was the more realistic decision, but he did it with malice toward the Council. The Collector base was just a realistic decision.

Personally I chose neutral for the Council and kept the Collector Base.


You can kill the council and then use the Paragon options after you kill the Saren-bot-reaper-thingy. Basically saying that we should restore the council. Then Udina shoots you down, saying that ever since becoming a Spectre, you've become ruthless and all that nonsense. Even if you did it for the right reasons, it doesn't end up that way.

BTW that woould have been a great third option: 1) Save the Council, 2) Kill the Council, stack it with humans, 3) Kill the Council, restore the species in power.


Actually, that IS a third option. If your character is too Renegade, then Udina makes the comment about you being ruthless and doesn't give you the option. But if you've played a fairly balanced mix of Paragon/Renegade or just been plain Paragon up to that point, you're allowed to sacrifice the Council and reform it out of it's constituent species (although as far as ME2 is concerned, that last option doesn't seem to make a lick of difference as the Council still refuses to see you).

It's kind of lame. IMO, pure Renegades should be given the option to reform the Council just like everyone else. I'm not sure why BioWare chose to penalize them like that.

#105
Digifi

Digifi
  • Members
  • 314 messages

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

  

Oh I disagree Mass Effect 3 is nothing but a big F U to us Cerberus fans as well a clear example that us renegades mean nothing as far as our choices go. Bioware has screwed us renegades a lot in fact in ME 2 we had no real way of dealing with utter garabge that went down on Horizion with the VS crap. and then when we learned Anderson sent spies to spy on Shepard we were screwed with no real way to get revenge. They have flat out lied from Mass Effect 1 that choice matters in these games and that renegade and paragon matters but now we come to the 3rd game and find out Oh Paragon fans you and your side is the way ME 3 will be. There are ways of getting revenge  


EL OH EL...  My paragon HATED the fact that he had to play nice with Cerberus all through ME2.  Also, if you're a Cerberus fan then you'll know that if TIM decides you've become a threat to humanity FOR ANY REASON, then he'll have you killed.  You don't know TIM or his motivations, and your own arrogance makes you think that you alone are special and needed to save the galaxy.  If TIM doesn't think you are needed then guess what, you're not.  TIM has many assets, and none of them are indespencible, even Shepard.  I'd be willing to bet that TIM thinks Kai Leng could handle the job just as well as you and was loyal to Cerberus long before Shepard ever was.

Also, I really hoped you never knocked an ME1 LI fanboy when they were complaining about what BioWare did to them...

#106
ExtremeOne

ExtremeOne
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

Digifi wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

  

Oh I disagree Mass Effect 3 is nothing but a big F U to us Cerberus fans as well a clear example that us renegades mean nothing as far as our choices go. Bioware has screwed us renegades a lot in fact in ME 2 we had no real way of dealing with utter garabge that went down on Horizion with the VS crap. and then when we learned Anderson sent spies to spy on Shepard we were screwed with no real way to get revenge. They have flat out lied from Mass Effect 1 that choice matters in these games and that renegade and paragon matters but now we come to the 3rd game and find out Oh Paragon fans you and your side is the way ME 3 will be. There are ways of getting revenge  


EL OH EL...  My paragon HATED the fact that he had to play nice with Cerberus all through ME2.  Also, if you're a Cerberus fan then you'll know that if TIM decides you've become a threat to humanity FOR ANY REASON, then he'll have you killed.  You don't know TIM or his motivations, and your own arrogance makes you think that you alone are special and needed to save the galaxy.  If TIM doesn't think you are needed then guess what, you're not.  TIM has many assets, and none of them are indespencible, even Shepard.  I'd be willing to bet that TIM thinks Kai Leng could handle the job just as well as you and was loyal to Cerberus long before Shepard ever was.

Also, I really hoped you never knocked an ME1 LI fanboy when they were complaining about what BioWare did to them...

  


while I disagree with your views on ME 3 thats fine. but at least there are many ways ME 3 can end and one of my endings will be allowing the reapers to destroy the Galaxy as a F U to Bioware and their disrespect  of us Renegades and Cerberus fans. but hey you and your fellow Paragons got your little make up letter from Bioware so you should be celecbrating but us renegades will find ways of making Bioware favorites and good guys suffer in ME 3 just like we found ways of making those that we had no need for in ME 2 suffer 

#107
jbblue05

jbblue05
  • Members
  • 1 480 messages
You do know you can sabotage Cerberus projects.
You can argue with TIM
You can also gather evidece against them.

You're definently not force to play nice with Cerberus if ayone is forced to play nice its Cerberus with SHepard

Modifié par jbblue05, 16 avril 2011 - 07:55 .


#108
Digifi

Digifi
  • Members
  • 314 messages
Wow, I have renegade playthroughs too. That Shepard thinks Cerberus is right, but he isn't delusional either. He knows that TIM doesn't suffer liabilities, and Shepard can certainly see where TIM could find liabilities, even in the most hardened renegade playthrough (hence why my renegade isn't a loyalist per say).

I've felt slighted as a renegade roughly the same amount as paragon, which isn't very much. As a renegade though I have much better options in many cases of dealing with scum. I see no disrespect for renegades and as I've said, it is way too early to say the renegade playthrough of ME3 will be inferior to the paragon one. There just isn't any proof of that yet (and I don't think the GI info regarding Cerberus trying to kill you qualifies at this time with how little info there is).

#109
Digifi

Digifi
  • Members
  • 314 messages

jbblue05 wrote...

You do know you can sabotage Cerberus projects.
You can argue with TIM
You can also gather evidece against them.

You're definently not force to play nice with Cerberus if ayone is forced to play nice its Cerberus with SHepard


I had to suffer them which is playing nice as far as my paragon was concerned.  I did all those other things with my paragon but at the end of the day he just wanted to destroy the whole organization.  I will say that I want my renegade to be able to do this to the Alliance in ME3 and my paragon to do it to Cerberus.  I support the options, I just don't support the doomsaying that it will all suck and renegades will be second class citizens.  I don't want them to be for my own sake cause it would suck for my playthroughs with 80 hours of renegade awesomeness each (between ME1 and ME2).

#110
JKoopman

JKoopman
  • Members
  • 1 441 messages

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

lol, for realz, dawg

Covering up the crimes of a criminal who gots dozens of people killed all so that his daughter doesn't have her feelings hurt is totally the morally upstanding thing to do.

You see, it is crap like this that proves that Renegades are ultimately better people. Paragons have messed up priorities.


The Ruthless background says otherwise IMO, getting countless numbers of your soldiers killed because you didnt want to take prisoners because YOU personally felt like they needed to suffer is anything but being a good person or focusing on your priorities as a Commanding officer, your priority is to accomplish the set mission objectives with minimal losses to your own troops not to use them as meatshields to sate your own desire to see every alien on Torfan butchered. If being Renegade is always about being such a Badass then you should have gone and killed them all yourself since your so awesome.


Umm... what!?

Psychological Profile: Ruthless

Throughout your military career, you have held fast to one basic rule: get the job done. You've been called cold, calculating, and brutal. Your reputation for ruthless efficiency makes your fellow soldiers wary of you. But when failure is not an option, the military always goes to you first.

Torfan

Torfan was a base for criminals, mostly batarians, who built strongholds deep underground. In retaliation for the Skyllian Blitz, the Alliance raided Torfan in 2178. Though the Alliance took heavy losses, the enemy was annihilated. After Torfan the batarians began retreating from Citadel space. If Shepard is described as Ruthless, the Commander's reputation was cemented at Torfan. Shepard pursued the batarians and wiped them out - even those who surrendered - at the cost of many lives from the Commander's unit, earning Shepard the uncomplimentary title "Butcher of Torfan". Major Kyle, Shepard's commanding officer at Torfan, couldn't handle the loss of so many marines and was eventually given an honourable discharge, later becoming the leader of a biotic commune.


Where does it say anything in there about Shepard using Alliance soldiers as "meat shields" or somehow getting people killed because he had a personal vendetta against batarians (BTW, how exactly do you get an Alliance soldier killed by executing a surrending enemy?).

Torfan was a heavily defended base used by pirates and slavers who were holed up in massive fortified underground bunkers. Taking the moon was essentially storming the beaches of Normandy in WWII. A more squeemish, "Paragon" Commander may have simply written it off as impossible due to the staggering predicted losses in it's destruction. Imagine if such a person had been in charge back in 1944...

A Ruthless Shepard is simply focused on the mission, with an emphasis on getting the job done at any cost. Alliance soldiers didn't die "needlessly" on Torfan due to some vindictive nature on Shepard's part. They were simply the necessary cost of taking the heavily fortified base, just as the 45,000 Allied soldiers who died on the beaches of Normandy were a necessary cost of taking the heavily fortified French coast and creating a beachhead that resulted in the ultimate defeat of the **** regime.

And hey, wouldn't ya know it, after the massacre at Torfan, the batarian slavers and pirates were so decimated and demoralized that they ultimately retreated from Council space entirely.

Modifié par JKoopman, 16 avril 2011 - 08:22 .


#111
jamesp81

jamesp81
  • Members
  • 4 051 messages

Digifi wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

  

Oh I disagree Mass Effect 3 is nothing but a big F U to us Cerberus fans as well a clear example that us renegades mean nothing as far as our choices go. Bioware has screwed us renegades a lot in fact in ME 2 we had no real way of dealing with utter garabge that went down on Horizion with the VS crap. and then when we learned Anderson sent spies to spy on Shepard we were screwed with no real way to get revenge. They have flat out lied from Mass Effect 1 that choice matters in these games and that renegade and paragon matters but now we come to the 3rd game and find out Oh Paragon fans you and your side is the way ME 3 will be. There are ways of getting revenge  


EL OH EL...  My paragon HATED the fact that he had to play nice with Cerberus all through ME2.  Also, if you're a Cerberus fan then you'll know that if TIM decides you've become a threat to humanity FOR ANY REASON, then he'll have you killed.  You don't know TIM or his motivations, and your own arrogance makes you think that you alone are special and needed to save the galaxy.  If TIM doesn't think you are needed then guess what, you're not.  TIM has many assets, and none of them are indespencible, even Shepard.  I'd be willing to bet that TIM thinks Kai Leng could handle the job just as well as you and was loyal to Cerberus long before Shepard ever was.

Also, I really hoped you never knocked an ME1 LI fanboy when they were complaining about what BioWare did to them...


Agreed.  The Cerberus fans have no ground to stand on.  Our paragon ass-kissing to the council in ME1 got us nothing more than  "Ahh, yes, Reapers".

I think something that a lot of people are having trouble accepting is that Cerberus really are badguys, or at least TIM is.

#112
Digifi

Digifi
  • Members
  • 314 messages
I don't think TIM is bad, he's an objectivist. Sometimes the ends do justify the means, sometimes they don't. The same is true of the paragon route, sometimes you do things that will end in morally objectionable outcomes because you refuse to take a morally questionable route yourself. Neither is better or worse, they just are.

#113
ExtremeOne

ExtremeOne
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

jamesp81 wrote...

Digifi wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well you paragons got your little wish in ME 3 you all should be celebrating because its clear that the renegade choices in ME 2 mean nothing in ME 3. but there are ways to get revenge

Let's wait untill we have finished ME3 before we decide that it's anti renegade please. Also renegade and paragon was never presented as right or wrong. Furtermore there are no real rewards for either paragon or renegade. You are not the victim here, no one is. So there are no reasons for you to plan some kind of revenge.

  

Oh I disagree Mass Effect 3 is nothing but a big F U to us Cerberus fans as well a clear example that us renegades mean nothing as far as our choices go. Bioware has screwed us renegades a lot in fact in ME 2 we had no real way of dealing with utter garabge that went down on Horizion with the VS crap. and then when we learned Anderson sent spies to spy on Shepard we were screwed with no real way to get revenge. They have flat out lied from Mass Effect 1 that choice matters in these games and that renegade and paragon matters but now we come to the 3rd game and find out Oh Paragon fans you and your side is the way ME 3 will be. There are ways of getting revenge  


EL OH EL...  My paragon HATED the fact that he had to play nice with Cerberus all through ME2.  Also, if you're a Cerberus fan then you'll know that if TIM decides you've become a threat to humanity FOR ANY REASON, then he'll have you killed.  You don't know TIM or his motivations, and your own arrogance makes you think that you alone are special and needed to save the galaxy.  If TIM doesn't think you are needed then guess what, you're not.  TIM has many assets, and none of them are indespencible, even Shepard.  I'd be willing to bet that TIM thinks Kai Leng could handle the job just as well as you and was loyal to Cerberus long before Shepard ever was.

Also, I really hoped you never knocked an ME1 LI fanboy when they were complaining about what BioWare did to them...


Agreed.  The Cerberus fans have no ground to stand on.  Our paragon ass-kissing to the council in ME1 got us nothing more than  "Ahh, yes, Reapers".

I think something that a lot of people are having trouble accepting is that Cerberus really are badguys, or at least TIM is.

 



well Cerberus may be evil in you paragons eye's but Bioware wants to force us that have Pro Cerberus Shepards fight Cerberus then fine but the Alliance will be treated like utter garabage as pay back My Shepard has no plans on obeying the Alliance in ME 3 

#114
hawat333

hawat333
  • Members
  • 2 974 messages
They are willing to make sacrifices for the greater goal. This attitude has a chance of going through the trouble with a lot of bloodshed but ultimately with a success.
Paragons are more dangerous in that aspect, I think.

#115
ArmedChimp

ArmedChimp
  • Members
  • 101 messages
About exposing Tali's father to the Quarian council as a renegade. It
might seem like a dick move but it is quite logical. Its a form of
punishment same as sending people to jail. By pretty much exposing who
did it and all the consequences that ensue you scare of other whackjobs
trying to tinker with geth technology.

Yes its a dick move towards Tali but its better for the Quarian fleet. And thats pretty much also the essence of  Renegade they step on toes for the greater good.

As for backstabbing Samara. She states that she may have to kill you if you're going to do stuff that she doesn't like. Now if you're a renegade that's obviously the case. Taking Morinth over her pretty much removes a potential threat after you're done with the collectors. And you could always shoot Morinth in the head afterwards. Bit of the shame they didn't allow us to do that.

#116
Sajuro

Sajuro
  • Members
  • 6 871 messages
You know, I am glad to see all of these people reserving judgment until ME 3 is out, yep... no jumping to conclusions here.

#117
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages

ArmedChimp wrote...

Yes its a dick move towards Tali but its better for the Quarian fleet. And thats pretty much also the essence of  Renegade they step on toes for the greater good.


I'd believe it was a good thing if Tali didn't outright call me a monster and said the Flotila was falling apart because of it with people breaking away and the others preparing for war.

#118
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages
I've always loved how everyone BUT Tali lauds you if you reveal the truth... and then Tali goes about how 'it's a Quarian thing, I shouldn't have expected you to understand.'

Except, of course, that she's about the only Quarian who holds that view.

#119
Sajuro

Sajuro
  • Members
  • 6 871 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've always loved how everyone BUT Tali lauds you if you reveal the truth... and then Tali goes about how 'it's a Quarian thing, I shouldn't have expected you to understand.'

Except, of course, that she's about the only Quarian who holds that view.

It's a Tali thing, she wouldn't expect you to understand.

#120
lovgreno

lovgreno
  • Members
  • 3 523 messages

ExtremeOne wrote...There are ways of getting revenge  

Revenge on who, why and how? If you feel unfairly treated by BioWare you expect too much. They don't need to be fair to anyone except their profit. But I guess you can just not buy ME3 and thus deny them your money.

#121
Sajuro

Sajuro
  • Members
  • 6 871 messages

ArmedChimp wrote...
-good snip-And you could always shoot Morinth in the head afterwards. Bit of the shame they didn't allow us to do that.

because you could always sic her on your enemies. If Shepard was able to gain here loyalty, you would have a sexy space vampire as your personal assassin to nom nom on people.
Kai Leng, can you come over for a second, I have an Asari for you to meet.

#122
lovgreno

lovgreno
  • Members
  • 3 523 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've always loved how everyone BUT Tali lauds you if you reveal the truth... and then Tali goes about how 'it's a Quarian thing, I shouldn't have expected you to understand.'

Except, of course, that she's about the only Quarian who holds that view.

Shepard is a human raised elsewhere. Do your Shepards have the perfect point of wiev of everything? I do expect someone who was born and raised on the flotilla to know that culture better.

#123
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've always loved how everyone BUT Tali lauds you if you reveal the truth... and then Tali goes about how 'it's a Quarian thing, I shouldn't have expected you to understand.'

Except, of course, that she's about the only Quarian who holds that view.

Shepard is a human raised elsewhere. Do your Shepards have the perfect point of wiev of everything? I do expect someone who was born and raised on the flotilla to know that culture better.

Oh, that might fly... if anyone on the Flotilla reflected that. Instead, you have every admiral from all sides, the ship captain, and the generic quarian public opinion pretty much lauding Shepard for doing the Right Thing.

And no one reflecting Tali's claim.

#124
JedTed

JedTed
  • Members
  • 1 109 messages
I don't think winning will be impossible for Renegade players but it will be difficult to convince the other races to help defend Earth when everyone sees you as a racist bastard.

#125
Almostfaceman

Almostfaceman
  • Members
  • 5 463 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've always loved how everyone BUT Tali lauds you if you reveal the truth... and then Tali goes about how 'it's a Quarian thing, I shouldn't have expected you to understand.'

Except, of course, that she's about the only Quarian who holds that view.

Shepard is a human raised elsewhere. Do your Shepards have the perfect point of wiev of everything? I do expect someone who was born and raised on the flotilla to know that culture better.

Oh, that might fly... if anyone on the Flotilla reflected that. Instead, you have every admiral from all sides, the ship captain, and the generic quarian public opinion pretty much lauding Shepard for doing the Right Thing.

And no one reflecting Tali's claim.


Anyone on the flotilla does reflect this.

If you keep Tali's secret then talk to Admiral Gerrel and tell him off-the-record that Tali's father was experimenting on Geth, he says he's glad Shep doesn't bring it up and that Tali doesn't have to suffer for her father's mistakes.  Which means he knew Tali would suffer even if found innocent, because it would besmirch her father's legacy. It's a quarian thing.