40 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteCousland]

It seemed to me like they were trying to make everything "dark and grey and morally ambiguous" when lets face it, alot of it wasn't. Just because something isn't black or white doesn't instantly mean it's dark and gritty. It seemed to me like they were doing things for it being  ambiguous and dark and gritty rather than actually making sense.

[Nightwriter]

I honestly felt torn between two warring factions in this game, and the reason I felt torn is I saw great merits and great faults on both sides. So yes, I think they did a good job of presenting morally gray issues. I could defend the templar side to you right now just as easily as I could defend the mage side.

[Rifneno]

Don't know about the morally grey area, but yes, they tried way too hard to be "dark."  Zombie mom was a complete /facepalm. 

[jlb524]

DanteCousland wrote...

It seemed to me like they were trying to make everything "dark and grey and morally ambiguous" when lets face it, alot of it wasn't. Just because something isn't black or white doesn't instantly mean it's dark and gritty. It seemed to me like they were doing things for it being  ambiguous and dark and gritty rather than actually making sense.

Do you have an example?

[DanteCousland]

Zombie mom, Ramming the evils of blood magic down your throat the dalish attacking you etc, there my personal views what about yours?

[jlb524]

DanteCousland wrote...

Zombie mom, Ramming the evils of blood magic down your throat the dalish attacking you etc, there my personal views what about yours?

So, you are saying these quests did not make sense and were too dark and gritty?

I personally don't find the use of blood magic to be a black/white issue, as I don't think it's inherintly a bad/evil thing. 

What part of the Dalish attack don't you like?   The fact that it couldn't be stopped (in most cases)?

[Cutlass Jack]

You act like this is something new. That ship sailed in the previous game before you even made it out of the origin sequences. Shiani's rape, the Couslands murdered, etc. etc. etc. The series has always tried too hard to be dark, gritty & morally ambiguous.

(And in case you didn't know, you don't have to fight the Dalish.)

[DanteCousland]

they made sense it just seemed like they were trying too hard. I didn't like that you commit what is pretty much elven genocide as if it were as easy as breathing with nothing to add afterwards. Its just like yeh I kill so many people wiping out an innocent clan wont even spark a conversation afterwards. Maybe its a glitch but my Hawke and merril didn't even speak afterwards they jsut walked off like a sociopath as if killing innocent elves (who were only trying to protect Marethai and the clan) was part of his day job.

That and how people are constantly betraying you, like Orsino for example. I mean I was helping him, we were winning but no Bioware havent shown us the dangers of blood magic enough yet, they need to be dark and gritty and he has to go harvester on us.

[Maria Caliban]

Zombie mom was well done. I disliked the general handling of the family, in that you had to lose every family member, but Leandra's death was good.

Act III didn't suffer from being too dark or gritty. It suffered from feeling rush because everyone acted like you had sided with the Templars even if you hadn't, we weren't given enough time to explore the situation and the two main players (Meredith and Orsino), and Orsino becoming the harvester if you sided with the mages made little sense.

The Dalish were stupid. It's still a pity they died and I hate having to kill them. It made sense, however, that they'd attack you after you killed their Keeper.

[frustratemyself]

I didn't entirely get the Dalish attacking you. If their keeper was possessed they would have had to kill her themselves if Hawke hadn't been there.
I'm not trying to turn this into a rant thread but I think there should have been an option there to hand Merrill over to the clan to punish her as they saw fit.

Orsino going harvester didn't make enough sense either when he attacks Hawke & co instead of wailing on templars like you would expect. Or maybe he thought he would have more control of himself at that point since he did it willingly.

[Nightwriter]

DanteCousland wrote...

Zombie mom

I cried for twenty minutes.

Well, on the inside. I can't cry on the outside because the Tear Demon will steal my tears and make Nightwriterbane out of them.

No, seriously, I haven't been that emotionally affected by a game in a long time. I had to go make sure my real mother was alive and safe. Then I made her swear on a stack of Andrew Lloyd Webber soundtracks that she would never accept lilies from men in robes. She kept looking at me funny and telling me perhaps I should lay off the videogames for a while. I kept wondering what she was talking about as I sacrificed a stuffed animal to the Flemeth shrine in my closet.

[LobselVith8]

DanteCousland wrote...

they made sense it just seemed like they were trying too hard. I didn't like that you commit what is pretty much elven genocide as if it were as easy as breathing with nothing to add afterwards. Its just like yeh I kill so many people wiping out an innocent clan wont even spark a conversation afterwards. Maybe its a glitch but my Hawke and merril didn't even speak afterwards they jsut walked off like a sociopath as if killing innocent elves (who were only trying to protect Marethai and the clan) was part of his day job.

I understand the complaints about Act III I felt it was either rushed or poorly written. There's no balance to the dicotomy between the templars and the mages. We get Meredith ordering the execution of every mage in the Circle for something Anders did (which I suppose they thought would be "morally grey"), or we get temporary amnesia from characters because Ser Thrask and his insurrection group fail to recognize that the Champion has been speaking out against Knight-Commander Meredith.

DanteCousland wrote...

That and how people are constantly betraying you, like Orsino for example. I mean I was helping him, we were winning but no Bioware havent shown us the dangers of blood magic enough yet, they need to be dark and gritty and he has to go harvester on us.

I think it was an easy way for them to throw in another boss battle by recycling the final boss from GoA.

[Augustei]

DanteCousland wrote...

It seemed to me like they were trying to make everything "dark and grey and morally ambiguous" when lets face it, alot of it wasn't. Just because something isn't black or white doesn't instantly mean it's dark and gritty. It seemed to me like they were doing things for it being  ambiguous and dark and gritty rather than actually making sense.

Seemed less dark than origins to me, sept that scene where your mother dies but that was just stupid

[Fast Jimmy]

For the record, doing Merril's Companion Quest doesn't mean you have to kill her clan. Just choose the option that said you take responsibility for her and they leave you alone. It was what happened the first playthrough I had, so I was a little surprised to see most people saying they "had" to slaughter her people.

[frustratemyself]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

For the record, doing Merril's Companion Quest doesn't mean you have to kill her clan. Just choose the option that said you take responsibility for her and they leave you alone. It was what happened the first playthrough I had, so I was a little surprised to see most people saying they "had" to slaughter her people.

True. Unfortunately 3 out of 4 responses lead that way and probably ended in more than a few reloads.

[AlexXIV]

I think DA:O was darker and grittier. At first. It sort of got spoiled with Awakenings and the 'Dark Ritual' being everything just not dark. Matter of facty the Origins stories forced you into the Grey Wardens which is more or less a death sentence, or 'sacrifice' as Duncan would put it. So in my first playthrough I never had the feel there would be a 'happy ending' possible anyway. And in my first playthrough I also though the ultimate sacrifice was the best choice, so yeah it was dark and sad.

In DA2 I never felt that way. It was annoying at best and ridiculous. Probably mostly due to the combat animations which rather remind you of the 'happy treefriends' than anything. Sorry but splatter animations make people laugh or facepalm, but not feel dark or gritty.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[nightscrawl]

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly felt torn between two warring factions in this game, and the reason I felt torn is I saw great merits and great faults on both sides. So yes, I think they did a good job of presenting morally gray issues. I could defend the templar side to you right now just as easily as I could defend the mage side.

I felt this way also.

jlb524 wrote...

I personally don't find the use of blood magic to be a black/white issue, as I don't think it's inherintly a bad/evil thing.

You have to contact a demon to learn it though, and a demon's influence is corrupting because even if you have good intentions (as Merrill does) for wanting to use blood magic, it can manipulate you for it's own ends (like Marethari explains). Blood magic is also the most powerful kind because it relies on the very force of life to control and destroy. It's very different than calling on the elements or other forces of nature.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You act like this is something new. That ship sailed in the previous game before you even made it out of the origin sequences. Shiani's rape, the Couslands murdered, etc. etc. etc. The series has always tried too hard to be dark, gritty & morally ambiguous.

I don't really feel that these elements are "trying too hard." Those things exist in real life, and as in real life there are also morally ambiguous issues to get through. Those things in the origin stories set the stage for the rest of the game. I don't really understand what you're objecting to, unless it's the use person on person violence, instead of mythical creature (demon, dragon, etc) on person violence.


I think some of the character reactions were handled poorly, such as the elven clan slaughter; some mention of it should have been made. I also feel that there should have been more options for Hawke to express conflict with mages (whether she supports them in general or not) due to the death of her mother, other than that one time after mom's death.

I think the key reason for zombie mom was to give the player a personal stake in the fight for/against mages. If you were on the fence, you might have been pushed over to the templar side, now thinking that all mages have the potential to turn into murdering lunatics (who are much more dangerous than your average murdering lunatic.) If you were for the mages, you will excuse Quentin's behavior as the result of severe grief, leading to insanity, he just happened to have the means (being a mage) to do something with it. Or if you were for the templars, well this just cemented all of your beliefs. As far as the fact that it happens in the first place, well there are all sort of weird/fantastical/bizarre/horrific creatures and events that happen in Dragon Age, it's a fantasy game o.O.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 avril 2011 - 09:56 .

[DanteCousland]

Definitely agree, men exploding like water baloons isnt dark or gritty, its just silly. Isabela stabs a guy with a dagger and BAM!.

[Rifneno]

DanteCousland wrote...

Definitely agree, men exploding like water baloons isnt dark or gritty, its just silly. Isabela stabs a guy with a dagger and BAM!.

Bingo.  The combat animations were so bloody and gory that they unintentionally made a mockery of themselves.  When a darkspawn slits a captive's throat in DAO, there was enough blood to make you cinge slightly for the poor guy but not so much that you can't take it seriously.  Here, somebody gets shot with an arrow and he literally explodes, sending body parts flying 20 feet.  What is this, an episode of Itchy and Scratchy?  I couldn't take the violence seriously because it was just too over the top.  The average citizen of Kirkwall has more blood in him than a small herd of elephants.

[FedericoV]

Well, you have to kill the Dalish only if you do not take full responsibility for Merril's action, wich is the most rational thing to do. I do not think that the game tried too hard to be dark. It's one of the most positive element of the game. DA2 at least has some personality and atmosphere because of it, a thing that DA:O missed because of its formulaic story.

Yep, it's hard to be morally ambiguos in a videogame and it's easier to build a story about the big bad guy who wants to kill humanity. But that's not a good reason to stop trying delivering something new and different.

[Pyro_Monkey]

frustratemyself wrote...
True. Unfortunately 3 out of 4 responses lead that way and probably ended in more than a few reloads.

lol, true that.  ended up reloading 3 times because i didn't want to have to kill the dalish.

yes they were trying to be a bit dark and gritty, and they more or less accomplished that, through various consequences and suffering.

[ForeignPatriot]

Pyro_Monkey wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...
True. Unfortunately 3 out of 4 responses lead that way and probably ended in more than a few reloads.

lol, true that.  ended up reloading 3 times because i didn't want to have to kill the dalish.

yes they were trying to be a bit dark and gritty, and they more or less accomplished that, through various consequences and suffering.

On my first play through I kind of wished there was an option to hand over Merrill or help them kill her. Now she has grown on me and I wouldn't do it but, it'd be an interesting "crisis" moment.

[Fallstar]

I didn't even try to be honest. At certain points the game felt dark - the zombie mum for instance - but that's about it. The rest of the time Hawke was too busy searching for pantaloons.

[doloreg]

OP, that makes little to no sense, beause as you've put it, it's not black and white, but that doesn't mean it's dark and gritty.
Having to deal with deep issues that are not clear and can make you think is not trying too hard.
There are parts that feel forced, but it's not really that big of a deal.

In fact, i thought, that they were trying too hard to be funny.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I didn't know I could stop the Dalish attacking in Merrill's quest. My psycho Warden had already killed one Dalish clan so I was like "Ooops I've killed the Dalish again". In my second playthough I didn't kill them but I felt stupid having my blood mage Hawke say she'd stop Merrill hurting anyone with blood magic (I just imagine she was tricking them and didn't really feel that way).

Hawke's mam getting killed was harsh and I was gutted when Bethany got took to the circle (and angry when Carver joined the Templars).