161 réponses à ce sujet

[Flayling]

Me personally? Dragon Age Origins was a brilliant game, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I could easily handle all the complex situations.

..... Now let's analyze my best friend's gaming style.  He is not video game savy.  He installed Dragon Age and absolutely loved the game.  But....

1. He kept dieing on casual mode over & over & over again.
2. He didnt' even know that you can have four party members.
3. He had no idea that you could equip new armor and weapons for your hero or companions
4. He never looted anything off corpses
5. He had no idea there was a "party camp".
6. He skipped through dialogue to get to the "action".

The list goes on and on. Sadly these types of gamers make up a majority of Bioware's consumers.

Before I saw my friend play Dragon Age Origins I thought Bioware was completely retarded in how they designed DA2. But after seeing my friend play Dragon Age Origins I understand why Bioware made DA2 the way they did.

Basically Bioware is catering to people who have no clue about video games and have no idea what an RPG is. Sad but true.......

Everything Mike Laidlaw or any of the other bioware employees say MAKES PERFECT sense when I compare their comments to how retarded my friend played Dragon Age Origins.

Food for thought.

Modifié par Flayling, 16 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Roxlimn]

Related:

My wife is playing Dragon Age 2. The combat's turned all the way down to Casual so she can just enjoy it as a largely non-interactive action sequence. She plays it largely for the text game. She never liked DA:Os narrative quite as much.

[randName]

Had a similar thing with my brother in ME1 - he wouldn't fix the gears or weapons, and instead he just played the game.

So he got to one of the boss fights mid game on normal, with level 1 gear - had not cared to run around buying anything, and just had what he picked up along the way.

So now he had 5% left in health, and no health potions, and no save to return to - and he had to fight this boss - so I came over and fixed up what little I could with his gear, and he had a health regen. upgrade that I had him install, and then he was able to hide away for long enough to get his health back.

And then he finished the rest of the game with that setup. He is probably a better FPS gamer than I, but just never cared for the inventory management, nor did he consider that weapons would level up as they do in games like ME or DA (2 included) and would require him to replace his old gear.


Personally I think casual should almost be a god mode, or what ever you do you won't fail - and normal should be for normal gamers, and not for normal cRPG gamers.

The problem with DA2 is that Hard and Nightmare are not really well designed, and for me Hard was too easy (but tedious) and NM was problematic and tedious (the FF is really annoying on PC, I hear its less so on console (50% damage opposed to a 100%), as you so easily can kill your own with hits that barely grace enemies healths).


EDIT: He did play through ME1, but found it to contain too many elements he didn't care to spend any time with, so he never got ME2 despite that it changed many of the elements he had didn't care for.

And someone else I know destroyed his xbox controller playing DA:O in sheer frustration on Casual, and here I found Nightmare to be too easy. The treshold in cRPGs can truly be inspiring (esp. in games like EVE ~) 

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Roxlimn]

randName:

With all due respect, if you've really mastered Hard, then encounters should be over in seconds. The most tedous thing about DA2 is waiting for the waves to spawn.  Highly recommend playing on Normal or Casual if the battles are taking too long.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 16 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[Teredan]

Flayling wrote...

Me personally? Dragon Age Origins was a brilliant game, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I could easily handle all the complex situations.

..... Now let's analyze my best friend's gaming style.  He is not video game savy.  He installed Dragon Age and absolutely loved the game.  But....

1. He kept dieing on casual mode over & over & over again.
2. He didnt' even know that you can have four party members.
3. He had no idea that you could equip new armor and weapons for your hero or companions
4. He never looted anything off corpses
5. He had no idea there was a "party camp".
6. He skipped through dialogue to get to the "action".

The list goes on and on. Sadly these types of gamers make up a majority of Bioware's consumers.

Before I saw my friend play Dragon Age Origins I thought Bioware was completely retarded in how they designed DA2. But after seeing my friend play Dragon Age Origins I understand why Bioware made DA2 the way they did.

Basically Bioware is catering to people who have no clue about video games and have no idea what an RPG is. Sad but true.......

Everything Mike Laidlaw or any of the other bioware employees say MAKES PERFECT sense when I compare their comments to how retarded my friend played Dragon Age Origins.

Food for thought.

It doesn't make sense, they should have instead implemented better tutorials?
I doubt your friend lacks the ability to learn? (And learning new mechanics can be made fun if done right)

[randName]

Roxlimn wrote...

randName:

With all due respect, if you've really mastered Hard, then encounters should be over in seconds. The most tedous thing about DA2 is waiting for the waves to spawn.

The reason Causual or Normal isn't as bad is that you don't even have to be there on these, and there are less spawns - and you can just ignore everything.

Hard at least makes you setup combos and be partly present, thus it becomes tedious since its always the same slow morass of constant spawns without a challange, and since every fight is more or less the same it's just this grind to go through. 

It's simply tedious, tiresome, boring and dull.





Nightmare is a bit less so, since you can actually screw up and die - esp. due to FF, but normally these fights also become dull once you are past the treshhold were you can easily deal with elites and enemies of varied resistance. Once you have done that very little new ever happens in the game.

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 09:44 .

[mdugger12]

Teredan wrote...

It doesn't make sense, they should have instead implemented better tutorials?
I doubt your friend lacks the ability to learn? (And learning new mechanics can be made fun if done right)

I don't think it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

[randName]

Teredan wrote...

Flayling wrote...

Me personally? Dragon Age Origins was a brilliant game, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I could easily handle all the complex situations.

..... Now let's analyze my best friend's gaming style.  He is not video game savy.  He installed Dragon Age and absolutely loved the game.  But....

1. He kept dieing on casual mode over & over & over again.
2. He didnt' even know that you can have four party members.
3. He had no idea that you could equip new armor and weapons for your hero or companions
4. He never looted anything off corpses
5. He had no idea there was a "party camp".
6. He skipped through dialogue to get to the "action".

The list goes on and on. Sadly these types of gamers make up a majority of Bioware's consumers.

Before I saw my friend play Dragon Age Origins I thought Bioware was completely retarded in how they designed DA2. But after seeing my friend play Dragon Age Origins I understand why Bioware made DA2 the way they did.

Basically Bioware is catering to people who have no clue about video games and have no idea what an RPG is. Sad but true.......

Everything Mike Laidlaw or any of the other bioware employees say MAKES PERFECT sense when I compare their comments to how retarded my friend played Dragon Age Origins.

Food for thought.

It doesn't make sense, they should have instead implemented better tutorials?
I doubt your friend lacks the ability to learn? (And learning new mechanics can be made fun if done right)

Some people have little interest in it - that's why I think casual should be a god mode, and normal should be for people relatively new to either games or the genre, but that are willing to learn.

You could make a setting between casual and normal, say easy to cover new but interested players ofc.

DA2 did this well enough I guess, the problem is that they stoped catering for those that have played games like these before, or at least I found the combat to be horribly boring.


EDIT: and as mdugger12  pointed out you don't want to sit through a tutorial before you start a game, you just want to get to it and play.

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[bEVEsthda]

Dudes, - what's your points?
Isn't there enough children games out there? Is EVERY game now required to be a children game?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 16 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[Merilsell]

My friend, who never played videogames in her life, played Origins on the XBox and quite frankly did very well for her lack of experience. She made her own character and not only that she talked to her companions without skipping anything, nor did she die in battle on casual. And she really liked Origins. That the interest about it was that strong that it brought her to play videogames in the first place says something.

Good I helped her with fiddling with the inventory a bit, but she figured out the rest on her own. It is not that hard when you try to use a program called brain.exe * rolls eyes*

But yeah, apparently BW makes RPG's now for people who don't play RPG's.

classy.

[Chromie]

Flayling wrote...

Me personally? Dragon Age Origins was a brilliant game, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I could easily handle all the complex situations.

What complex situations? I remember the game being incredibily easy on Nightmare too easy really.

[Esbatty]

My babysister found DAO to be too "restrictive" and linear. She never made it out of Lothering. On the other hand she pours of over a hundred hours into Fable 2, and its favoritest game ever. I cried a little when she tried to do a "timed combo" in DAO in the Korcari Wilds. Apparently combat rolling is all the roll-playing she needs.

[DocDoomII]

The other reason why they changed so much the game is because in their statistics a huge number of game never got past Ostagar.

But they failed to understand that it was because people were trying all the origins...

[Xewaka]

mdugger12 wrote...
I don't think it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

That's because RPGs can't be taught in a tutorial. RPGs are taught from friend to friend, from veteran to newbie. People start playing RPGs not because of publicity stunts, but because their rad older friend brought Baldur's Gate / Fallout / KotOR / whatever to their house and showed them an awesome game.
RPGs are a true social experience, not just games.

[randName]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Dudes, -what's your points?
Isn't there enough children games out there? Is EVERY game now required to be a children game?

If by Dudes you mean all of us - my point is simply that it's good that casual incoperates everyone, but they should try to make it work for both parties, just not new players.

Or they could have it so that easy spoon feeds you through complex quests, while normal don't, and with Hard you get even less clues about what you need to do next - and that combat on Casual is more or less retardation proof - with health and damage output from the player that makes you a god amongst men, and that with hard or nightmare etc. it works for the experienced player.

For me DA2 never felt playtested on NM, or barely so.

And they already almost made it retard proof on casual (not sure what happens if you just hit R and never care to change gear through out), perhaps casual can end up being a challange then, but I doubt it.

[abaris]

Flayling wrote...

Everything Mike Laidlaw or any of the other bioware employees say MAKES PERFECT sense when I compare their comments to how retarded my friend played Dragon Age Origins.

Food for thought.

Its the same as if you have a car with a fancy stereo. You don't have to use all the features to use the radio, but if - on the other hand - you have a crappy mono intsalled, you can't use what isn't there.

That's my point as far as dumbed down games are concerned. If they're only catering to the lowest common denominator, they will lose the ones hoping for a more complex experience.

Once again, you simply can't use, what isn't there to begin with.

[Roxlimn]

randName:

Shrug. Combat on Hard went really fast for me. As I said, most of the tedium was in waiting for the spawns to materialize. I would hardly call it a "morass." I mean, some encounters are over in less than 10 seconds. It's not what I could really call a "grind."

As I said, if combats are not going fast enough for you, you probably shouldn't be playing on Hard. Optimized encounter speed on Hard requires a fair bit of adaptation, so my guess is that you're just slogging through stuff without really optimizing and that's why it's taking so long.

bEVEsthda:

Making a game that's suitable for people who are not long time fans of the genre is key to expanding the market and sustaining the genre in the long term. And yes, that means that it's not a crime for a game to be made so that children can play it.

[mdugger12]

Xewaka wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
I don't think it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

That's because RPGs can't be taught in a tutorial. RPGs are taught from friend to friend, from veteran to newbie. People start playing RPGs not because of publicity stunts, but because their rad older friend brought Baldur's Gate / Fallout / KotOR / whatever to their house and showed them an awesome game.
RPGs are a true social experience, not just games.

I see where you're going there and even though I wish that's how it worked we both know thats not the case. lol There are comments that show a feeling of contempt towards casual or inexperienced gamers just in this thread. But you're right, you can't "teach" someone to play an RPG in a tutorial. There is more to it than controls and mechanics.

[MistySun]

Merilsell wrote...

My friend, who never played videogames in her life, played Origins on the XBox and quite frankly did very well for her lack of experience. She made her own character and not only that she talked to her companions without skipping anything, nor did she die in battle on casual. And she really liked Origins. That the interest about it was that strong that it brought her to play videogames in the first place says something.

Good I helped her with fiddling with the inventory a bit, but she figured out the rest on her own. It is not that hard when you try to use a program called brain.exe * rolls eyes*

But yeah, apparently BW makes RPG's now for people who don't play RPG's.

classy.

I was also a newbie with video games...RPG games in particular. Platform games was easy for me...like Rainbow Islands which i loved and although i know that doesn't get anywhere near the games our PC's play today i did learn from games like that. 
And so i started playing RPG's once i bought a PC and got broadband installed.
From games like Oblivion, Fable, The Witcher i became more and more inclined to get everything possible i could to improve my gaming experience (by that i mean ingame items, new spells, gear, etc,
I taught myself and enjoyed the games much more.

[Sabriana]

Merilsell wrote...

My friend, who never played videogames in her life, played Origins on the XBox and quite frankly did very well for her lack of experience. She made her own character and not only that she talked to her companions without skipping anything, nor did she die in battle on casual. And she really liked Origins. That the interest about it was that strong that it brought her to play videogames in the first place says something.

Good I helped her with fiddling with the inventory a bit, but she figured out the rest on her own. It is not that hard when you try to use a program called brain.exe * rolls eyes*

But yeah, apparently BW makes RPG's now for people who don't play RPG's.

classy.

Same here, but substitute "friend" for "my kids", and "XBox" for "PC". I somewhat regret kindling their interest in RPG's now. I forever have to hide my games, especially VtM:B.

[randName]

Roxlimn wrote...

randName:

Shrug. Combat on Hard went really fast for me. As I said, most of the tedium was in waiting for the spawns to materialize. I would hardly call it a "morass." I mean, some encounters are over in less than 10 seconds. It's not what I could really call a "grind."

As I said, if combats are not going fast enough for you, you probably shouldn't be playing on Hard. Optimized encounter speed on Hard requires a fair bit of adaptation, so my guess is that you're just slogging through stuff without really optimizing and that's why it's taking so long.

I'm talking about more than one encounter - they are all the same, thus the morass coment; it's just always the same tiresome boring thing, fight after fight, and even if one fight is over in seconds, the next comes, and it's the same, it's as easy, and as monotonous and boring, and they add up to make fighting in DA2 dull over time, as in tedious.

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[Teredan]

mdugger12 wrote...

Teredan wrote...

It doesn't make sense, they should have instead implemented better tutorials?
I doubt your friend lacks the ability to learn? (And learning new mechanics can be made fun if done right)

I don't think it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

like I said rightly implemented tutorials don't have to be tedious. Casual gamers don't want to put in the effort to learn hard mechanics. so you make the learning process as easy as possible and fun as possible instead of eliminating it. problem solved.

Xewaka wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
I don't think
it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or
even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours
of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that
Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I
don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the
world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that
DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

That's
because RPGs can't be taught in a tutorial. RPGs are taught from friend
to friend, from veteran to newbie. People start playing RPGs not
because of publicity stunts, but because their rad older friend brought
Baldur's Gate / Fallout / KotOR / whatever to their house and showed
them an awesome game.
RPGs are a true social experience, not just games.

wrong...
believe it or not but I learned the concepts of MMORPGs (which are a
tad bit harder in most cases than normal rpgs) by playing wow (preparing
himself for the backlash for having been a wow player ) which is
extremely userfriendly.

Modifié par Teredan, 16 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Teredan]

Modifié par Teredan, 16 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[barryl89]

I found DA2 very hard compared to Origins. I mean I found Fable2 harder than DAO.

OK, so joking aside. It is my opinion that Origins was easier and if Bioware were really aiming for casual gamers then they failed badly. In fact it is probably fair to say they missed both targets in terms of sales.

And I am a DA2 defender.

[randName]

Teredan wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Teredan wrote...

It doesn't make sense, they should have instead implemented better tutorials?
I doubt your friend lacks the ability to learn? (And learning new mechanics can be made fun if done right)

I don't think it's about lacking the ability to learn, I think that casual gamers or even gamers that aren't hardcore RPG fans don't want to go through hours of tutorials before they can start enjoying a game. It's a hurdle that Bioware faced in trying to share the DA universe with more people. I don't see that as being wrong, it's something worth sharing with the world. Still, I totally understand how some fans are disappointed that DA 2 isn't quite the love letter to RPG fans that DA:O was.

like I said rightly implemented tutorials don't have to be tedious. Casual gamers don't want to put in the effort to learn hard mechanics. so you make the learning process as easy as possible and fun as possible instead of eliminating it. problem solved.

They can eliminate the need for it on casual - say that the gear you get from the start levels up with you, it's never as good as the special armours you can find around the game, but it's always good enough for casual gamers.

Yoú make it so that health potions become infinitive on casual, an ability over an item to purchase - on casual the game asks if you want to avoid automatic leveling, but as default it would level for you - and so on,

And just have fights to be really easy on casual.

I think the Witcher did it well idea wise - Casual: you don't have to care about it. Normal: If you just want to fight. Hard: If you want to use all the potions and items.

Now it didn't perfectly work out, but the notion is sound I think. (there should just be like that through out, and that you probably need something over hard, for those who are really good at the game, besides likes to use the items and potions well).

Modifié par randName, 16 avril 2011 - 10:13 .