46 réponses à ce sujet

[Marvin_Arnold]

First, let me say that this is my fourth playthrough, though my first as a Human Noble. And the game is still good for a surprise...

So, I was looking forward to meeting Loghain and Howe when arriving in Denerim with Eamon, just to see how Howe would weasel himself out of my accusations. I was expecting him to dance around the subject, how he had nothing to do with the murders, anyone could have posed as Howe soldiers, since the Teyrn title was vacant now, he had taken it for some reasons, etc...

Well, big was my surprise when Howe actually accused my family of treason! That caught me completely by surprise! Add to this the patronizing comments by Missy Cauthrien, and I had many reasons to literally shake with rage (in real life!) after ending this dialogue. (I usually talk Cauthrien out of fighting me at the Landsmeet, but I don't think I will this time...) One reason, however, was the inability to push the topic further, to find out what Howe had told Loghain, and the apparent lack of memory on Loghain's part that I had introduced myself and spoken to him about the matter at Ostagar...

So, my question is: Will we ever learn what this "treason" was supposed to be? (please try to give some pointers without spoilers, as I'd like to find out more myself...)  Thanks!

[Lee]

You will if you import your human noble game over to Awakening. In the dialog with Nathaniel Howe, he'll mention what his father had convinced Loghain of. (Whether or not Rendon himself believed it is another matter entirely.)

[errant_knight]

It's hard to take Howe's accusations seriously. We met Bryce and Eleanor, we know that Eamon considered Bryce to be the most honorable man in Ferelden, and we know that Howe was a collaborator and only supported the rebellion at the end. He's not a very believable source of information, besides being insanely jealous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I do think Howe believed his accusations to a certain extent. Why else would he tell a Cousland about it? He doesn't give a damn if you think he is justified or not, in fact he is taking pleasure at seeing you angry about it (or he might be thinking this would make you slip up in the fight). He doesn't need to rationalize what he did, he already knows why he did it: Couslands are holding him back and that's enough. So why is he telling us this?

That said, I think his jealousy and hatred colored his perception of Bryce and his visits to Orlais. He probably misinterpreted. However, I still do not remove the possibility of Bryce being an ally to Orlais just yet.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[Ferretinabun]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Howe himself briefly explains his motivations when you confront him at his estate.

[Marvin_Arnold]

OK, thanks to everybody. Something to look forward, then. I had feared this was a "loose end"...

Currently I've just entered his estate and I think I might ask for a few explanations (politely, of course...). In fact, this time I skipped every other assignment in Denerim and rushed to his estate directly after our arrival just to meet him there...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 16 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[Korva]

Unless my memory deceives me (and it has been a while since my one and only playthrough), Howe's "the Couslands were too friendly with Orlais" excuse for his betrayal is laughably hypocritical since he and his family were in bed with the occupation a generation ago until they got their butts kicked.

[GSSAGE7]

Korva wrote...

Unless my memory deceives me (and it has been a while since my one and only playthrough), Howe's "the Couslands were too friendly with Orlais" excuse for his betrayal is laughably hypocritical since he and his family were in bed with the occupation a generation ago until they got their butts kicked.

In his defense, I recall that teacher from the human origin saying that Rendon Howe sided with the rebellion against the rest of his family. I could be wrong though.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do think Howe believed his accusations to a certain extent. Why else would he tell a Cousland about it? He doesn't give a damn if you think he is justified or not, in fact he is taking pleasure at seeing you angry about it (or he might be thinking this would make you slip up in the fight). He doesn't need to rationalize what he did, he already knows why he did it: Couslands are holding him back and that's enough. So why is he telling us this?
 

Because putting a seed of doubt in the mind of Bryce's child would be a way of completing his vengeance

[Addai]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Korva wrote...

Unless my memory deceives me (and it has been a while since my one and only playthrough), Howe's "the Couslands were too friendly with Orlais" excuse for his betrayal is laughably hypocritical since he and his family were in bed with the occupation a generation ago until they got their butts kicked.

In his defense, I recall that teacher from the human origin saying that Rendon Howe sided with the rebellion against the rest of his family. I could be wrong though.

Yes, Rendon turned on his own father and brought the arling back to the rebellion.  So you could see this as foreshadowing of what he's capable of, though it did make him a war hero.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do think Howe believed his accusations to a certain extent. Why else would he tell a Cousland about it? He doesn't give a damn if you think he is justified or not, in fact he is taking pleasure at seeing you angry about it (or he might be thinking this would make you slip up in the fight). He doesn't need to rationalize what he did, he already knows why he did it: Couslands are holding him back and that's enough. So why is he telling us this?
 

Because putting a seed of doubt in the mind of Bryce's child would be a way of completing his vengeance

I think the motive was more to demoralize the "spitfire" by showing that everyone believed her family were traitors.  I'm guessing he had tortured witnesses to get fake confessions, hence the battered bodies of Mother Mallol and Ser Gilmore you see in the pan over Fort Drakon.

[GSSAGE7]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do think Howe believed his accusations to a certain extent. Why else would he tell a Cousland about it? He doesn't give a damn if you think he is justified or not, in fact he is taking pleasure at seeing you angry about it (or he might be thinking this would make you slip up in the fight). He doesn't need to rationalize what he did, he already knows why he did it: Couslands are holding him back and that's enough. So why is he telling us this?
 

Because putting a seed of doubt in the mind of Bryce's child would be a way of completing his vengeance

I think the motive was more to demoralize the "spitfire" by showing that everyone believed her family were traitors.  I'm guessing he had tortured witnesses to get fake confessions, hence the battered bodies of Mother Mallol and Ser Gilmore you see in the pan over Fort Drakon.

Holy crap, Mallol was there too? Jesus, I barely even recognized her.

[TheBlackBaron]

Addai67 wrote...
I think the motive was more to demoralize the "spitfire" by showing that everyone believed her family were traitors.  I'm guessing he had tortured witnesses to get fake confessions, hence the battered bodies of Mother Mallol and Ser Gilmore you see in the pan over Fort Drakon.

Holy ****, really? I never noticed that before. 

[Addai]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think the motive was more to demoralize the "spitfire" by showing that everyone believed her family were traitors.  I'm guessing he had tortured witnesses to get fake confessions, hence the battered bodies of Mother Mallol and Ser Gilmore you see in the pan over Fort Drakon.

Holy ****, really? I never noticed that before. 

[Korva]

... ugh. I thought these bodies did look vaguely familiar but didn't make the connection and just saw them as generic victims of Howe's/Loghain's atrocities. But if it is them -- and that sure looks like Ser Gilmore -- then that makes it even more personal. Grrr.

[danerman]

*Spoilers for all character origins below*


The following are obvious: Loghain is a war hero who is doing what is best for Ferelden. Howe is his right hand man and is selflessly doing what's best for Ferelden. Alistair is a no good bastard child who would ruin Ferelden. The whole Cousland family is a traitorous lot who are in bed with the Orleasians. The mage Warden helps a blood mage escape from the circle of magi or rats out a good friend for his/her own betterment. The city elf Warden breaks into a nobles house and possibly murders a kind nobleman for no good reason. The Dalish elf warden is corrupted by a mirror and his/her mind is so permanently poisoned with evil thoughts that no good can ever come from this character. The Dwarven commoner defiled the proving right set up by the ancestors of Orzamaar; equivalent to the evil of defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes. The Dwarven Noble killed his/her brother to try to take the throne; good thing brother Bhelen was there to stop this atrocity and rightfully try and take the throne himself. Duncan is an evil man who recruits criminals into the Grey Wardens to end a blight he created himself. He also tricked good king Cailen and left him to die at Ostagar. Even though Duncan dies with Cailen at Ostagar he knew that the bastard son of Maric and the other evil Warden he recruited would escape and carry out his dastardly plan.

Thus Howe and Loghain had every right to try and kill the Wardens to save Ferelden. It's really a shame that they fail and the very group that started the blight(the Grey Wardens) take credit for ending the blight and usher in a time of great evil.


BTW I personally don't believe a word of what I said above. However, I've seen a few of these ideas mentioned on the boards in the past so some people do believe some of what is said.

Modifié par danerman, 23 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[Addai]

Yeah. I've been on the forums a lot, for a long time, and I've never seen anyone argue that the Couslands were actually traitors, that Howe was a good guy, or that the Grey Wardens started the Blight. Not sure what forum you're talking about.

[danerman]

I did not say all the stuff I said. What I've seen people argue is that Loghain is doing what's best for Ferelden. I've also seen many people argue that Alistair would be bad for Ferelden. The Warden's started the blight bit I got from some funny gossip you can hear in the game. Of course Howe claims that the Cousland family are traitors. I was not trying to troll when I said that, I just was saying that I did not believe any of the stuff but that not all of it is extremely far fetched but most of it is of course.

[ThomasBlaine]

It's not even that much of a stretch.
Presumably thanks to Majorlane, Howe was convinced the Couslands were traitors, which they may or may not have been, and told Loghain, and Loghain only pulled out at Ostagar because the beacon was lit too late, and attacking would leave him with too few soldiers to defend the Ferelden from Orlais.
All their crappy decisions afterwards (Uldred, poisoning Eamon, ect.) were simply attempts at regaining control of the country and avoiding a civil war.
Really, the only reasons that the entire mess started in the first place were:
1. Cailan thought he was the main character.
2. YOU were too late to the top of the Tower of Ishal,

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 06 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[Wereparrot]

If I remember rightly, Howe says that Bryce was a traitor 'to me'. I think this speaks volumes that he made it up. The fact that Bryce was in Orlais from time to time proves nothing; as a high-ranking nobleman, it is to be expected that he might visit other nations from time to time, in his own name and in the name of the king.

[Bleachrude]

You know...I'm still unclear how lighting the bonfire at the top of the tower actually influenced anything...

How does Loghain know it is :"too late" to attack if he can't see the situation clearly? If Loghain CAN see the situation clearly enough to retreat, then what the hell is the purpose of lighting the bonfire?

Never really understood how lighting the signal flare could be "too late"...

[Sifr]

It could be that Howe found the idea that Fergus Cousland married an Antivan somewhat distasteful and having a child with Antivan ancestry, be the heir to the Teryn of Highever. Thats the only nationalistic thing I could think that would make him claim to be a traitor on that front, but apart from that its completely baseless.

Howe is just bitter and clearly resents the Couslands. While his family have always tried to gain power and influence, the Couslands have both but do not seek anymore. While the Howes are treated with suspect as Orlesian sympathisers, the Couslands are beloved and popular with the Bannon with many who wanted Bryce to be King over Maric. The Howes are Arls, but the Couslands are Teryns, (with Highever actually being an independent principality of Ferelden). And now, despite the numerous assassins he's sent and armies in their way, Bryce's child is now standing before him, ready to tear down his little world, and a Grey Warden to boot (something his own father failed to survive the Joining), its pretty clear why Howe is going to come up with anything to try and save face and his own dignity.

Cause it has to be said, deep down, Howe hates the fact that the Couslands are just that inherently awesome.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 17 juin 2011 - 12:37 .

[GSSAGE7]

Sifr1449 wrote...

It could be that Howe found the idea that Fergus Cousland married an Antivan somewhat distasteful and having a child with Antivan ancestry, be the heir to the Teryn of Highever. Thats the only nationalistic thing I could think that would make him claim to be a traitor on that front, but apart from that its completely baseless.

But the problem with that argument is that in a conversation with Dairren in the human noble origin (for males, at least), it's said that more people expect The Warden to be the next teryn.

Sifr1449 wrote...
Cause it has to be said, deep down, Howe hates the fact that the Couslands are just that inherently awesome.

I kinda like that answer.

[Addai]

Bleachrude wrote...

You know...I'm still unclear how lighting the bonfire at the top of the tower actually influenced anything...

How does Loghain know it is :"too late" to attack if he can't see the situation clearly? If Loghain CAN see the situation clearly enough to retreat, then what the hell is the purpose of lighting the bonfire?

Never really understood how lighting the signal flare could be "too late"...

Ok, this is how I picture it.  I don't vouch for it being "the way it is."

Ostagar is situated in a valley and the fortress at the head of the valley.  The Fereldans position the Grey Wardens at the head of the valley along with a small force- the king's men, per Cailan's insistence- as bait to draw the horde into the valley.  The intent was that Loghain would swing around behind the horde and enclose them in the valley, like swinging a trap door shut.  He needed a signal because if he charged too soon, his own forces could get cut off if most of the darkspawn were not already in the valley.

However, the horde was so large (we know it was much larger than anyone expected, per David Gaider here in the forums), Loghain could actually see that there were streams of reinforcements that had not even gotten into the valley by the time the beacon was lit.  There is one shot (I don't have a screen unfortunately) where you can see a stream of torches coming down a mountainside, with no end in sight.

What was never clear to me is how Alistair is supposed to know the right time to light the signal.  Presumably you can see the whole valley from the top of the tower, but I guess Duncan's thinking is that a Warden is supposed to be able to sense that there are a lot of darkspawn very close nearby the Tower without even looking.  The thinking being that if Alistair senses a lot of darkspawn, the horde is all in the valley- whereas actually the horde is much larger and extends way past where they originally thought it would end.  So Loghain would be able to see even from his vantage point that an enclosure maneuver is likely to be a disaster.  The fact that the Wardens were trying to send his men in anyway might have reinforced his belief in their incompetence and carelessness with Fereldan lives.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juin 2011 - 03:50 .

[Bratt1204]

errant_knight wrote...

It's hard to take Howe's accusations seriously. We met Bryce and Eleanor, we know that Eamon considered Bryce to be the most honorable man in Ferelden, and we know that Howe was a collaborator and only supported the rebellion at the end. He's not a very believable source of information, besides being insanely jealous.

errant- I still have not been able to bring myself to buy Awakening but think I might. In your opinion, is the storyline decent enough to spend $30.00 on? I refuse to buy DA2 but I'm thinking Awakening might be fun, even if Alistair is only in it for 2 seconds and we can't do much of anything with our companions.