46 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

It's not even that much of a stretch.
Presumably thanks to Majorlane, Howe was convinced the Couslands were traitors, which they may or may not have been, and told Loghain, and Loghain only pulled out at Ostagar because the beacon was lit too late, and attacking would leave him with too few soldiers to defend the Ferelden from Orlais.
All their crappy decisions afterwards (Uldred, poisoning Eamon, ect.) were simply attempts at regaining control of the country and avoiding a civil war.
Really, the only reasons that the entire mess started in the first place were:
1. Cailan thought he was the main character.
2. YOU were too late to the top of the Tower of Ishal,

There are some problems here.
a) We know from Gaider that Howe acted alone in taking out the Couslands- Loghain didn't have any part in it.  He was worried about the Orlesians because Cailan was inviting them in, not because of the Couslands.

The plan to poison Eamon was set in motion before Ostagar.  Its intent was to undercut Cailan's political support for an upcoming showdown over his overtures to Orlais.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juin 2011 - 04:26 .

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...


What was never clear to me is how Alistair is supposed to know the right time to light the signal.....

I don't think it has to do with sensing the darkspawn.  When you finally get to the tower he says something to the efect of, "I think we missed the signal, let's light the tower quickly..."


I also don't think Howe's traitor story is that incredulous to other Fereldans.  I know Bryce was popular, but Howe is rewarded for his acts and the NPCs you encoutner dislike him for reasons other than suspicion of what he did to the Couslands

[nos_astra]

Joy Divison wrote...
I also don't think Howe's traitor story is that incredulous to other Fereldans.

I still think it's rather disturbing that Howe can slaughter the second highest ranking noble family and all their servants and get away with it, just like this. No one wondering why his army was conveniently late for Ostagar? No witnesses for his visit at Highever? No one wondering who benefits the most from the Cousland family's demise? No rumours about Howe's exploits at Amaranthine?

Ferelden is inhabited by morons. <_<

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


What was never clear to me is how Alistair is supposed to know the right time to light the signal.....

I don't think it has to do with sensing the darkspawn.  When you finally get to the tower he says something to the efect of, "I think we missed the signal, let's light the tower quickly..."

Yeah but that doesn't make any sense.  Duncan says "Alistair will know"- not just "listen for the horn"- and anyway how will the vanguard know when to alert the flanking troops?  They're on the ground getting their asses kicked.  You have to have someone high up with vantage point.

Anyway, probably overthinking.

I also don't think Howe's traitor story is that incredulous to other Fereldans.  I know Bryce was popular, but Howe is rewarded for his acts and the NPCs you encoutner dislike him for reasons other than suspicion of what he did to the Couslands

I picture it that outside Highever, Bryce is just another noble and people are more worried about their own problems.  It's not like there's CNN broadcasting events in other teyrnirs.  I figure he kept Highever subdued by fear until late in the game when we hear riots break out.  As far as other nobles, Howe getting Loghain's (and by exension Anora's) support legitimizes what he did and the Couslands are already gone, so they're not going to stick their necks out, especially while there is so much general turmoil in the country.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 juin 2011 - 03:36 .

[Jedimaster88]

My warden always gets furious when he finds out that even though loghain knows what Howe did, instead of punishing him, he rewards him with even more titles and acts like they´re good friends or something. When I speak to Loghain at ostagar, he doesnt seem suprised, shocked or anything at all when he mentions Cailans promise. Very disturbing.

And yes the fact that none of the nobles doesnt seem to care what really happened to the couslands is also disturbing. Wasnt Bryce one of the people that actually fought with Loghain during the rebellion and is considered one of the most honorable man in Ferelden?

In Ferelden, justice doesnt get served as it should because either the people are idiots or they dont care unless its about them.

[Addai]

Howe also was a war hero in the rebellion. He went against his own father and brought Amaranthine back to the rebel cause.

Loghain doesn't have any particular fondness for him. Politics makes strange bedfellows. After Ostagar, Loghain doesn't have a lot of choice. Howe already occupies the north, the country's two largest ports, and probably Denerim, too, by that point, and Loghain needs allies.  Cailan tells a Cousland PC that it will take an army to dislodge Howe, so is Loghain supposed to go to war with him, too, as well as defend the country's western border and fight the darkspawn, with a civil war breaking out in the Bannorn?

Certainly, a Cousland can reasonably suspect Loghain was in on his family's demise- though that isn't true- it's a reasonable rp position to take. Or, a Cousland could understand his alliance with Howe as a pragmatic political move and be more detached about it- also valid.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

There are some problems here.
a) We know from Gaider that Howe acted alone in taking out the Couslands- Loghain didn't have any part in it. 

Maybe I've missed something, but I believe that is somewhat more specific than Gaider has been.  He said that "Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval", but I'm not aware of anything more definitive.

[Jedimaster88]

This doesnt actually consern the topic but is it possible that the civil war may not had happened if Loghain had let his daughter to handle all the politics and he fighting the darkspawn like he should have. He claims Anora is a strong queen, popular and all but I dont see Anora doing the ruling. Instead I see her as a puppet for Loghain. Maybe she believes her father knows what he is doing, but when she starts to doubt, she doesnt put him to the leash and rule as a queen. Does she fear Howe or Loghain or is there something else holding her back that prevents her from doing what is right?

[Bratt1204]

klarabella wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
I also don't think Howe's traitor story is that incredulous to other Fereldans.

I still think it's rather disturbing that Howe can slaughter the second highest ranking noble family and all their servants and get away with it, just like this. No one wondering why his army was conveniently late for Ostagar? No witnesses for his visit at Highever? No one wondering who benefits the most from the Cousland family's demise? No rumours about Howe's exploits at Amaranthine?

Ferelden is inhabited by morons. <_<

Well, Cailan did tell our HN Warden at Ostagar that ...."Howe will hang".... for what he had done to our family. The problem came after what happened at Ostagar but we were able to take care of Howe in the end ourselves- much more satisfying.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

There are some problems here.
a) We know from Gaider that Howe acted alone in taking out the Couslands- Loghain didn't have any part in it. 

Maybe I've missed something, but I believe that is somewhat more specific than Gaider has been.  He said that "Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval", but I'm not aware of anything more definitive.

In the quote you're thinking of I believe he's talking about other things Howe was doing during game-time, post Ostagar.  I don't have a link, I just recall that I once believed Loghain was involved in planning the Cousland takedown (it would make sense- the Couslands were royalists and he was trying to weaken Cailan), Gaider said no, and I responded "I find it hard to believe but if the Maker says it, that's the way it is."  It was in the forums but I doubt I'll ever find it.

[StoneTheCrow]

Indeed... if Loghain did not know about Howe's plan, how would he deal with Bryce once he confronted Cailan over Orlais? Had he hoped Bryce would side with him? Or that he had more influence on Cailan than Bryce? Or had he hoped to disable him, Eamon style? It's hard to say, as we don't know Bryce's opinion on the whole Orlais story.

On another note, I would have liked to see a meeting between Bryce and Loghain ingame, just to see how the two mix together. Is there anything like that in one of the novels?

[Addai]

Bryce/ Eleanor don't appear in the novels.

[Tremere]

Bleachrude wrote...

You know...I'm still unclear how lighting the bonfire at the top of the tower actually influenced anything...

How does Loghain know it is :"too late" to attack if he can't see the situation clearly? If Loghain CAN see the situation clearly enough to retreat, then what the hell is the purpose of lighting the bonfire?

Never really understood how lighting the signal flare could be "too late"...

I absolutely agree with you. If a signal is required, then it's clear that the reinforcements aren't in a position to determine when they should engage. No signal at all would have spoken volumes and likely would have justified Loghain's accusations against the Wardens, but that would have been the impetus for a whole other story.

[Tremere]

klarabella wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
I also don't think Howe's traitor story is that incredulous to other Fereldans.

I still think it's rather disturbing that Howe can slaughter the second highest ranking noble family and all their servants and get away with it, just like this. No one wondering why his army was conveniently late for Ostagar? No witnesses for his visit at Highever? No one wondering who benefits the most from the Cousland family's demise? No rumours about Howe's exploits at Amaranthine?

Ferelden is inhabited by morons. <_<

*nods* Methinks the Maker were givin' Ferelden an enema!
This is why I enjoy playing as a Human Noble. You're really invested in the story.

[Megaton_Hope]

Since Howe's the source of the claim, and it ties in so well with Loghain's obvious obsession with Orlais, I think I'd disregard it. Especially given the other things you can provoke him into saying. (Apparently the Couslands have a certain look they give him when they're beating him at something.)

In terms of practical political implications, I'm much more interested in rumors that Cailan was going to put aside his wife, the daughter of a famed general, and replace her with the Empress of Orlais. Kind of puts a whole new spin on certain things.

[Kaldelar]

Addai67 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think the motive was more to demoralize the "spitfire" by showing that everyone believed her family were traitors.  I'm guessing he had tortured witnesses to get fake confessions, hence the battered bodies of Mother Mallol and Ser Gilmore you see in the pan over Fort Drakon.

Holy ****, really? I never noticed that before. 

I can't believe I never noticed this before. Granted, I usually kill Cauthrien when she comes to arrest me, but still... it'll be a very weird scene if I have the Ser Gilmore mod installed too <.<

Faerunner wrote...

Historically speaking, "treason" was a
blanket accusation that could result in almost instant imprisonment
and/or execution. Just pick up any history book and see how disgustingly
common it was for people of all walks of life (from peasants to
royalty) to get executed on the generic charge of "treason,” especially
if they were accused by nobles or royals who wanted them out of the way.

Since
the game is based on Medieval England, I think similar principles
apply. If Arl Howe wanted to usurp the Couslands' lands and titles
without getting in trouble, he would just need to slap the family with
an accusation of "treason.” Who would outwardly argue with a patriot
that protected his country from traitors and possible spies? Especially
since the country in question is slowly recovering from a very long and
brutal occupation from foreign invaders?

Plus, let's keep things in perspective. Teyrn Loghain caused the death of the freaking King of Fereldan
and got away with it for over a year. (Again, on the accusation of
treason.) Arl Howe taking out a noble family is small beans by
comparison.

Very, very true. In the UK, Thomas pain in the 18th century was convicted for treason because he published anti-British material. Not to mention the wives of Henry VIII and their families (Anne Boleyn in particular) who were wrongfully accused... the list goes on.

A theory I have is that the people of Ferelden are generally kept in the dark. All they know, and all that the authorities let them know, is that the Couslands are gone and Howe as taken over, but that's that. Nothing about traitors. And that Cailan fell at Ostagar because of the Wardens and Loghain, miracuously (divine favour works wonders with the crowds), pulled out in time.
Or Fereldans are  just very dense.

[Zaxares]

Kaldelar wrote...

A theory I have is that the people of Ferelden are generally kept in the dark. All they know, and all that the authorities let them know, is that the Couslands are gone and Howe as taken over, but that's that. Nothing about traitors. And that Cailan fell at Ostagar because of the Wardens and Loghain, miracuously (divine favour works wonders with the crowds), pulled out in time.

I would say that's very plausible, especially if the average Fereldan does not know how to read or write and therefore would have little opportunity to get any information apart from what he hears from town criers/the authorities/rumours.

On the other hand, it seems that the people of Highever do not react well to Howe's takeover. There are a couple of guards who mention this during the infiltration of Howe's estate to rescue Anora ("And the villagers... Maker, if looks could kill...") So presumably, Fergus or the Warden has little trouble regaining control of Highever once the events of DAO are complete. Having the support of the native populace cannot be understated.

[Wulfram]

In the mind of some people, being prepared to support the King in his marriage to Celene, or even just being willing to welcome Orlesian forces coming to fight the blight, might be considered Treason.

[K_Tabris]

I never thought that was Mother Mallol, since we stumble upon her supposedly dead body while trying to escape....
On topic: Whether or not supporting Cailan's ill-judged marriage to the Orlesian Empress is treason, isn't this accusation a bit rich coming from Loghain's right hand man? I get Loghain's arguments and justifications, but indirectly causing Cailan's death is still much more treacherous.

Eh, this is more complicated than I am making it out to be.

[Kaldelar]

Zaxares wrote...

Kaldelar wrote...

A theory I have is that the people of Ferelden are generally kept in the dark. All they know, and all that the authorities let them know, is that the Couslands are gone and Howe as taken over, but that's that. Nothing about traitors. And that Cailan fell at Ostagar because of the Wardens and Loghain, miracuously (divine favour works wonders with the crowds), pulled out in time.

I would say that's very plausible, especially if the average Fereldan does not know how to read or write and therefore would have little opportunity to get any information apart from what he hears from town criers/the authorities/rumours.

On the other hand, it seems that the people of Highever do not react well to Howe's takeover. There are a couple of guards who mention this during the infiltration of Howe's estate to rescue Anora ("And the villagers... Maker, if looks could kill...") So presumably, Fergus or the Warden has little trouble regaining control of Highever once the events of DAO are complete. Having the support of the native populace cannot be understated.

Aye, I got that impression as well - it seems that it is mostly nobles and their servants (I assume the scholar in the Cousland library taught those two hooligans to read?), the clergy and people in larger cities (Denerim for example) that can read. I can't say why I think this is so, but perhaps it is the general fantasy setting that does it? Oh yes, absolutely. It doesn't matter how scary or powerful an authority figure is when the people wants him gone - severe discontent just needs a spark, a tiny incident, to set off a full blown uprising.

NovinhaShepard wrote...

I never thought that was Mother Mallol, since we stumble upon her supposedly dead body while trying to escape....
On
topic: Whether or not supporting Cailan's ill-judged marriage to the
Orlesian Empress is treason, isn't this accusation a bit rich coming
from Loghain's right hand man? I get Loghain's arguments and
justifications, but indirectly causing Cailan's death is still much more
treacherous.

Eh, this is more complicated than I am making it out to be.

I think, in Loghain's mind, Cailan's death was for The Greater Good. People like Loghain, who (claims) would do everything for his country, have their eyes fixed on the finish line and not all the bodies they have to tread over to get there. As for Howe... I think he's been in the shadow of the Couslands for too long and has grown terribly bitter and dark inside. He simply doesn't care anymore - he wants power for power's sake, and that makes him dangerous.