160 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Naltair wrote...

The evidence that Chakwas is a qualified medical doctor is much more substantial then one scene where Miranda tells Wilson to use the sedatives.

If that were the only scene... well, Chakwas would still need an equivalent. But that's not the only scene involving Miranda being portrayed as intimately involved in Lazarus.

Please provide evidence for this other scene?

We have logs in the Lazarus, we have Jacob's testimony, we have TIM's testimony about Miranda's involvement, we can ask Miranda herself on a number of levels...

[Naltair]

So basically because Chakwas has never been shown on screen doing medical work, you are asserting this decades experienced professional who is recognized by everyone on board has no experience and she is a charlatan? Are you trying to say that Chakwas is a fraud? because if that is your stance then we can't have an intelligent discussion.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[JosephShrike]

Well, Chakwas isn't exactly a wilting flower type. If she was asked, I doubt she would leave. She seems very emotionally vested in who she sees as 'her people', judging by her statements about Joker, and she wouldn't just walk away.

If Shep is supposed to be just as he/she was before with no changes, then whats the logic of controlling Garrus? I'd see the connection as TIM controlling Gary, so in turn he has some control over Shep, which seems like a roundabout way to get around what you say is his ideology. The brainwashing thing only has three real outcomes. First, Shep decides he can't kill Garrus so he does what TIM wants. Second, Shep kills Garrus and does what Shep wants anyway. Third, Garrus kills Shep.

Aside from the first, which would be a singular happening (no one would have someone on their crew who was obviously compromised), the odds are not in the Illusive Man's favor of having a good outcome. It seems like it's a horribly illogical and ill conceived action by someone who generally thinks things through.

Realistically, Jacob is far more likely to be a programed traitor then Garrus. Like with Gary, TIM would have a couple of hours tops to come up with a plan, ensure that any cybernetics which have the (insert sci-fiy explanation for brain control) are available on the ship (because that **** is probably not just floating around), make sure they are adaptable to Turian physiology, and then risk that Garrus might die anyway or the cybernetics might not take. Jacob, on the other hand, was on the Cerberus project, even though his skills would be better utilized elsewhere, and while he is Cerberus, meaning Shep might not trust him right away, he used to be Alliance. Were I TIM, I would go with Jacob.

Or, really, any of the other companions that aren't from ME1. Like the TIM doesn't even know where Garrus is, which...is actually really impressive for Garrus, and Quarians wouldn't touch anything Cerberus with a really long gun, but all the others you pick up on his recommendation (well, expect maybe Grunt, due to Okeer being a perfectionist), It's an interesting theory, but the jumps in logic and assumptions of things without any basis that TIM would have to make for the Garrus Project seem far too out of character for him.

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

We have logs in the Lazarus, we have Jacob's testimony, we have TIM's testimony about Miranda's involvement, we can ask Miranda herself on a number of levels...

In the logs she is just regurgigating information she got from Wilson and his team.  The only thing we know is that she studied Shepard extensively for two years and is a qualified leader.  How is this evidence any more substantial then what Chakwas tells you about her career?

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

So basically because Chakwas has never on screen done medical work, you are asserting this decades experienced professional who is recognized by everyone on board has no experience and she is a charlatan?

No.

Are you trying to say that Chakwas is a fraud?

No.

because if that is your stance then we can't have an intelligent discussion.

It may be a bit above your level at this point.

[KainrycKarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Naltair wrote...

The evidence that Chakwas is a qualified medical doctor is much more substantial then one scene where Miranda tells Wilson to use the sedatives.

If that were the only scene... well, Chakwas would still need an equivalent. But that's not the only scene involving Miranda being portrayed as intimately involved in Lazarus.

Please provide evidence for this other scene?

We have logs in the Lazarus, we have Jacob's testimony, we have TIM's testimony about Miranda's involvement, we can ask Miranda herself on a number of levels...

Noone's questioning her involvement. She's the project lead. No sh!t she's knee-deep in it. But that does not mean she is the one who micro-manages and does and understands all the medical procedures. She wouldn't need Wilson if that were the case.

[crimzontearz]

if Miranda is so Qualified then why exactly does she need wilson to assure her that the subject is salvageable? Why does Wilson make it a big deal about HIS work being recognized is she had so much hand into it? Also Garrus head was not blown open to begin with. There are scars only on his jaw and under his eye, cybernetics were most likely only involved to allow him to have functionality in his jaw and some of the torn muscles surely no way NEAR his brain or CNS.

[JosephShrike]

Well, not to completely discredit a good point, but with that kind of serious ballistic damage, you could easily have some injuring closer to the nervous system or the brain

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It may be a bit above your level at this point.

Don't insult me sir, I am not insulting you.  You are making the claim that because Chakwas has such "little" evidence we have to now prove that she is in fact a doctor.  That to me is laughable and says that you are just trying to shoe horn your theory/speculation.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[crimzontearz]

you could but there is no evidence one way or the other and he always and only mentions "my face is barely holding together"

[Naltair]

I think this could be an interesting idea but so far I just don't see a reason for it to happen and the evidence for how it could happen is somewhat lacking.

[Dean_the_Young]

JosephShrike wrote...

Well, Chakwas isn't exactly a wilting flower type. If she was asked, I doubt she would leave. She seems very emotionally vested in who she sees as 'her people', judging by her statements about Joker, and she wouldn't just walk away.

I hardly think anyone was seriously arguing she'd be thrown out.

Things could well be done without her knowledge.

If Shep is supposed to be just as he/she was before with no changes, then whats the logic of controlling Garrus? I'd see the connection as TIM controlling Gary, so in turn he has some control over Shep, which seems like a roundabout way to get around what you say is his ideology. The brainwashing thing only has three real outcomes. First, Shep decides he can't kill Garrus so he does what TIM wants. Second, Shep kills Garrus and does what Shep wants anyway. Third, Garrus kills Shep.

Subtle control and influence: killing Shepard (or vice versa) need never come into play unless Shepard knows, while we can justify from the lore-perspective why it might never (have been expected to) be known.

It's not even that TIM might want Garrus to become a salivating slave or pro-Cerberus zealot, but rather be able to 'push' here and there without Shepard knowing or noticing. Shepard has someone she thinks she can rely on utterly... not knowing that it's a Cerberus front. Shepard could think that Garrus is the one person, out of everyone on the ship, she could trust absolutely. Cerberus takes advantage of that trust to their own ends... like, say, Garrus giving modestly pro-Cerberus opinion, or defending keeping the Base.

Influence, not assassination, would be the value.

How much a control-chip affects, and is even known by the victim, is, of course, up for debate.

Aside from the first, which would be a singular happening (no one would have someone on their crew who was obviously compromised), the odds are not in the Illusive Man's favor of having a good outcome. It seems like it's a horribly illogical and ill conceived action by someone who generally thinks things through.

It depends on how likely it's judged to be caught. Certainly it likely falls apart quickly post-ME2 (though not necessarily), but then the post-ME2 was rather unpredictable.

Realistically, Jacob is far more likely to be a programed traitor then Garrus. Like with Gary, TIM would have a couple of hours tops to come up with a plan, ensure that any cybernetics which have the (insert sci-fiy explanation for brain control) are available on the ship (because that **** is probably not just floating around), make sure they are adaptable to Turian physiology, and then risk that Garrus might die anyway or the cybernetics might not take. Jacob, on the other hand, was on the Cerberus project, even though his skills would be better utilized elsewhere, and while he is Cerberus, meaning Shep might not trust him right away, he used to be Alliance. Were I TIM, I would go with Jacob.

That is one argument. Another, however, is that because Jacob is human and pre-aligned with Cerberus, Shepard would already be on-guard.

Foreseeing a possible use for a Turian-brain control chip isn't too farfetched when you consider that Cerberus already had a dossier on ArchAngel before Shepard was awake. It wasn't exactly hidden knowledge in the mercs that ArchAngel was a Turian: whether Cerberus knew it was Garrus or not might well not matter. They wouldn't necessarily need to know it's Garrus in particular, as opposed to suspect a Turian in general, given the hand-wave nature of mind control in the first place.

Or, really, any of the other companions that aren't from ME1. Like the TIM doesn't even know where Garrus is, which...is actually really impressive for Garrus, and Quarians wouldn't touch anything Cerberus with a really long gun, but all the others you pick up on his recommendation (well, expect maybe Grunt, due to Okeer being a perfectionist),

Well, there's always the argument he was lying.

It need not have been a direct plan, but a potential contingency to be taken advantage of. If Cerberus hasn't brain-chiped a Turian in the past, I'd be surprised.

It's an interesting theory, but the jumps in logic and assumptions of things without any basis that TIM would have to make for the Garrus Project seem far too out of character for him.

Being interesting is the point of this, so I enjoy the discussion with you.

[Dean_the_Young]

crimzontearz wrote...

if Miranda is so Qualified then why exactly does she need wilson to assure her that the subject is salvageable?

More help. You don't simply do projects with one qualified person, but multiple qualified persons.

Why does Wilson make it a big deal about HIS work being recognized is she had so much hand into it?

Because everyone wants their own efforts appreciated and recognized, whether they are critical or not.

Also Garrus head was not blown open to begin with. There are scars only on his jaw and under his eye, cybernetics were most likely only involved to allow him to have functionality in his jaw and some of the torn muscles surely no way NEAR his brain or CNS.

We don't know how extensive to input cybernetics would have had to be, and such surgeries often expand past the location of injury. An artificial hand wouldn't just be localized to the hand itself and nowhere else.

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

I think this could be an interesting idea but so far I just don't see a reason for it to happen and the evidence for how it could happen is somewhat lacking.

Luckily, no one is claiming there is evidence that this is the case and that it did happen.

[Naltair]

So we are just describing a what if scenario in alternate bizzaro Mass Effect world? If so then sure it could happen.

[JosephShrike]

I think that there really isn't any way that this did happen, and I'm still convinced that there's no way that it realistically would. There's too many variables and things that could go wrong, and too many stretches that would have to be made in order to reach it.

I think the OP's only purpose is to push all of that aside and just disregard it to pretend that it could. For a purely hypothetical discussion and entertainment consideration only. Might be wrong, OP, so just correct me if so

[Naltair]

JosephShrike wrote...

I think that there really isn't any way that this did happen, and I'm still convinced that there's no way that it realistically would. There's too many variables and things that could go wrong, and too many stretches that would have to be made in order to reach it.

I think the OP's only purpose is to push all of that aside and just disregard it to pretend that it could. For a purely hypothetical discussion and entertainment consideration only. Might be wrong, OP, so just correct me if so

After reading the first post again, I believe that is the intent.

Modifié par Naltair, 16 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JosephShrike wrote...

I think that there really isn't any way that this did happen, and I'm still convinced that there's no way that it realistically would. There's too many variables and things that could go wrong, and too many stretches that would have to be made in order to reach it.

I think the OP's only purpose is to push all of that aside and just disregard it to pretend that it could. For a purely hypothetical discussion and entertainment consideration only. Might be wrong, OP, so just correct me if so

Discussions are meant to be fun, especially about AU /what if alternatives. They can expand your horizons, make you consider things in a new light, and exercise your ability to think from undesirable points of view.Opportunities for treachery, subversions of trust, and tragedy.


In this case, it's more of a 'wow, why would I trust Cerberus to play nice with my companions in surgery without knowing better?'

[Dean_the_Young]

And Naltair wins an internet. It ain't a conspiracy theory.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[Naltair]

Well in this case you don't really have a choice the next time you see Garrus, he is already done with surgery. You have to either decide to lock him up for possibly be tampered with or trust him. Knowing better is pointless we already know Cerberus is ruthless, but you really don't have a choice you either work with them or go it alone with no resources.

[crimzontearz]

that brings us back to myprevious point. If the repair was so extensive Mordin, who is in charge of the team's health, would have caught it since he catches all Miranda's monitoring devices (and returns the expensive ones)....the purpose of such monitoring devices is, obviously, not to be discovered just like a control device in this case...and Mordin is a genius.

Also you have still to answer to me WHY Miranda would not tell Shepard about the control devices after she turns her back to Cerberus.

Also in the logs she sounds like she does not know if Shepard is salvageable and is only going on Wilson's words

[Rekkampum]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And maybe even slept with him?

You remember how in recruiting Garrus, he got his face blown to pieces?
Remember how, as close to death as he was, you handed him to Cerberus
and didn't ask too many questions? Remember how you were so relieved to
see him that you never asked what 'some cybernetics and other things'
might have implied?

Did you forget Miranda's inclination towards a control chip, but TIM shot her down because it was Shepard?

If you don't like TIM, you may wish you hadn't.


/Mind screw

In all seriousness, yes. I know this isn't going to be revealed as having happened. But I don't think I've ever heard someone raise the possibility, which is even scarier. How much is it that you don't think it could have happened... and how much is that you never wanted to consider the possibility?

Imagine, just imagine, if Cerberus had put a control chip in Garrus... and all that might imply.  How could that have turned out?


(Hint: possibly like this person's interpretation. Warning: not for the faint of heart, or those who like happy endings,)

Edit: Not sure if the link-to is working. Trying to fix it.

LOL @ the kink site. Interesting proposal. Would be interesting if it were true, though probably unlikely.

[Dean_the_Young]

crimzontearz wrote...

that brings us back to myprevious point. If the repair was so extensive Mordin, who is in charge of the team's health, would have caught it since he catches all Miranda's monitoring devices (and returns the expensive ones)....the purpose of such monitoring devices is, obviously, not to be discovered just like a control device in this case...and Mordin is a genius.

And? Simply because Mordin can catch one example of subterfuge does not mean he will catch all examples of subterfuge.

If the design and implementation of a control chip is to not be noticable, and if Mordin doesn't break open the patient's head to check for irregularities that may or may not be there, the story can just as well justify Mordin not noticing on the basis of him not being omniscient.

Also you have still to answer to me WHY Miranda would not tell Shepard about the control devices after she turns her back to Cerberus.

I did. Because she can't change it, sees it as raising bad blood at a bad time, and follows a rather human response to when someone has bad news which will hurt the messanger but won't help the hurt: to sit on it.

Why does anyone not disclose uncomfortable truths?

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

Well in this case you don't really have a choice the next time you see Garrus, he is already done with surgery. You have to either decide to lock him up for possibly be tampered with or trust him. Knowing better is pointless we already know Cerberus is ruthless, but you really don't have a choice you either work with them or go it alone with no resources.

Why would you know about the chip from the start?

[crimzontearz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


if Miranda is so Qualified then why exactly does she need wilson to assure her that the subject is salvageable?

More help. You don't simply do projects with one qualified person, but multiple qualified persons.

Why does Wilson make it a big deal about HIS work being recognized is she had so much hand into it?

Because everyone wants their own efforts appreciated and recognized, whether they are critical or not.

Also Garrus head was not blown open to begin with. There are scars only on his jaw and under his eye, cybernetics were most likely only involved to allow him to have functionality in his jaw and some of the torn muscles surely no way NEAR his brain or CNS.

We don't know how extensive to input cybernetics would have had to be, and such surgeries often expand past the location of injury. An artificial hand wouldn't just be localized to the hand itself and nowhere else.

are you kidding me? So Mordin solus who is recreuited because he is a medical genuis who is also a Salarian and therefore suspicious by nature just misses it right?...cool....why? simply to further this pointless hypothetical?




And Miranda? She keeps quiet about a team member who could blow up the Normandy and everyone in it after they turn on Cerberus because it would stirr bad blood? Miranda? Seriously?




come the **** on you are just climbing mirrors