112 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Eradyn wrote...

At least I am saying that it is only the council that makes this call for a Spectre, not some foreign government with no authority over Spectres.

Unfortunately, things are not as simple as that. As Phoenix points out, being a Spectre does not give one 'God status'. All things are relative; Shepard has immunity from the law so long as he's operating in the interests of the Council and doing so effectively.

In Arrival, Shepard is working as an Alliance Operative out in the Terminus Systems, where he murders 300k batarians all for 'Reapers' which no one believes exist. This was an act done outside of Council interests where (even as Paragon) the Council is very hesitant to give Shepard back Spectre status. Even immunity from the law has its limits; you cannot simply murder hundreds of thousands and expect no repercussions for your actions, especially when you have no reasonable defense. In this case, it's an issue for the Alliance.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that we don't know the full details of the trial. Hackett claims that Shepard must 'answer' for his actions, which may or may not entail punishment. We still have to see how this plays out.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 avril 2011 - 03:50 .

[CroGamer002]

Sphynx118 wrote...

What part of " THE EVIDENCE IS SHODDY AT BEST" dont you understand? Its said ingame by Hackett. That means that there cant have been any solid video or audio or other stuff that you can think of. It wouldnt be shoddy
then would it?
And it doesnt matter if Saren wasnt there personally
the first time. He was with them through hologram and that seemed to be ok dont you think?[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]
 
Allim saying is the council should be there in someway. Either through hologram communication(oh yes its still counts as being there) or personally

He said evidence against YOU, not Alliance.

And it does matter.
You can't court someone if he/she is not there to defend himself/herself! Unless it's not democratic system.

They can revoke his Spectre status but that's still not trial.

Modifié par Mesina2, 16 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[dreman9999]

Sphynx118 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Spectre as much power that it has, is mute in this trail because being a spectre only gains you power if you are with in cousil space and have the full support of the counsil itself. Also, to gain spectre statue you have to be presented by your races government and acsepted by the counsil, so it that race government want to retract you or hold you on trail, then that would happen. The spectreonly has as much power as the counsil and race that presents them gives them. If the spectre is no doing what the two wants then, ofcourse, he or she is rogue.

You cant retract a spectre.
If humanity has supported shepard to a spectre position and he gets accepted they cant just change their minds. Once he is a spectre the council have the last say no matter what humanity thinks

Oh yes they can. It's based on the ideal of balance of power that the counsil is built on. If it was not so then the counsil could do what ever they wanted with the spectres. They could over throw the goverment where the Spectre came from or have them kill the leader of the spectres goverment and not only be outside of punisment but the Spectre as well.

But the race that presents the spectre does not have imediate retration powers. They have to make a patision to the counsil. Only the counsil has the power to imediatly retract of a spectre, for the race the spectre comes from it takes time. And even if the counsil retracts the spectre statues the goverment that the race comes from can make a patision and case to get that person back to being a spectre.
The counsil runs on checks and balances.

[Sphynx118]

Il Divo wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

At least I am saying that it is only the council that makes this call for a Spectre, not some foreign government with no authority over Spectres.

Unfortunately, things are not as simple as that. As Phoenix points out, being a Spectre does not give one 'God status'. All things are relative; Shepard has immunity from the law so long as he's operating in the interests of the Council and doing so effectively.

In Arrival, Shepard is working as an Alliance Operative out in the Terminus Systems, where he murders 300k batarians all for 'Reapers' which no one believes exist. This was an act done outside of Council interests where (even as Paragon) the Council is very hesitant to give Shepard back Spectre status. Even immunity from the law has its limits; you cannot simply murder hundreds of thousands and expect no repercussions for your actions, especially when you have no reasonable defense. In this case, it's an issue for the Alliance.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that we don't know the full details of the trial. Hackett claims that Shepard must 'answer' for his actions, which may or may not entail punishment. We still have to see how this plays out.

I dont see how saying the council gets the last say with spectres is the same as the "God mode" some people like to rant about. Its not an alliance matter just because the council didnt authorize it.
Saren didnt get authorization from the council to blow up eden prime but they still tried him. Not the turians on Palaven.
Nobody is saying a spectre cant be judged. We are saying it can be judged but only by the appropriate authority.
Im not so sure its an Alliance operation either since it seems more like an "off the record" favor for Hackett

Modifié par Sphynx118, 16 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[Ghost Warrior]

All of this because the Spectre status and Shepard isn't a "full Spectre" during ME2.Even if Council reinstates Shepard's status in ME2,they say it themselves that it's just for show.You don't work for them,you don't even contact them after that.

But you are still human,which places you under Alliance's authority.If you destroyed a star cluster in Council space,inhabited by Council species,then the trial almost certainly wouldn't take place on Earth,but this way the Council is in no way involved.

Only link is that Spectre status,and even if Shepard was a real Spectre,they only have authority in Council space.Why do you think we never had a chance to say "I am a Spectre and I'm placing you into arrest" while we were in Terminus systems?

EDIT: I just saw Shepard being reinstated on YouTube,and they said (twice) that the offer stands only if you operate in Terminus systems,and Bahak system is not in Terminus.They also said that his reinstatement only means they support him personally and nothing else.

[Sphynx118]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

All of this because the Spectre status and Shepard isn't a "full Spectre" during ME2.Even if Council reinstates Shepard's status in ME2,they say it themselves that it's just for show.You don't work for them,you don't even contact them after that.

But you are still human,which places you under Alliance's authority.If you destroyed a star cluster in Council space,inhabited by Council species,then the trial almost certainly wouldn't take place on Earth,but this way the Council is in no way involved.

Only link is that Spectre status,and even if Shepard was a real Spectre,they only have authority in Council space.Why do you think we never had a chance to say "I am a Spectre and I'm placing you into arrest" while we were in Terminus systems?

EDIT: I just saw Shepard being reinstated on YouTube,and they said (twice) that the offer stands only if you operate in Terminus systems,and Bahak system is not in Terminus.They also said that his reinstatement only means they support him personally and nothing else.

Ofc hes a full spectre lol. You cant be a spectre" for show". The personally part is about them showing support of shepard himself but not his actions with cerberus. Hes still as much of a spectre as he was in ME1
 You dont have to contact them since you arent currently on council business.

You get a discount on the citadel for being a spectre, you get to order c-sec around, and you cant be prosecuted by elias lawyer because YOU ARE A SPECTRE not some"half spectre" or something. 

Modifié par Sphynx118, 16 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[dreman9999]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

All of this because the Spectre status and Shepard isn't a "full Spectre" during ME2.Even if Council reinstates Shepard's status in ME2,they say it themselves that it's just for show.You don't work for them,you don't even contact them after that.

But you are still human,which places you under Alliance's authority.If you destroyed a star cluster in Council space,inhabited by Council species,then the trial almost certainly wouldn't take place on Earth,but this way the Council is in no way involved.

Only link is that Spectre status,and even if Shepard was a real Spectre,they only have authority in Council space.Why do you think we never had a chance to say "I am a Spectre and I'm placing you into arrest" while we were in Terminus systems?

EDIT: I just saw Shepard being reinstated on YouTube,and they said (twice) that the offer stands only if you operate in Terminus systems,and Bahak system is not in Terminus.They also said that his reinstatement only means they support him personally and nothing else.

1. Bahak system is a bartarian colony. All Bartarian colonies are terminus systems.
2. To be a spectre, you must work for the benifit and will of the council. And if you do anything for your races government, it has to be in a way that itdoes not go ageints the council.
3. Nothing in the Bahak system was in any way a benifit or will to the council outside of stopping the reapers who the council does not believe is real.

So in short, if Sheperd tells the alliance and the council that they blew up the system due to the reapers, he'll look like a crazy person even if Hacket and Anderson back him/her up.
And the Bartarians are not going to understand, so to prevent a war they put on show of a trial.

[ANdrewJ]

Alliance is parted ways with us. From LOTsB we know that only Hackett is line from some kind of "Majors" from putting us in prison.
There must be button - "Call Harbinger" there, when you press it - Harbinger automatically screw every Alliance military member with idea of pursuing us and those who has touched SR-2.

They are too bolden with SR-2, "insert Saren speech" and there must be a way for me to screw them... Although it is more paragon then yelling at council - i told you!


Spectre status is not just label, Vasir blew 3 floors with people, Sared evaporated refinery... Batarians are not council species, their slavery is against any law, so there is little to none line that deriviate them from terrorists.

[lolwut666]

Even if the Council doesn't care about the batarians that lost their lives, Shepard will still be stripped of his Spectre status and put on trial for starting a war.

[emanziboy]

Sphynx118 wrote...

You get a discount on the citadel for being a spectre, you get to order c-sec around, and you cant be prosecuted by elias lawyer because YOU ARE A SPECTRE not some"half spectre" or something.

Actually, Shepard metions he/she was a former spectre for those first two. "Do former spectres get discounts", "Are you going to run-in a former spectre for obstruction of justice?" And the lawyer never verifies that Shepard is a spectre, he just gets scared off when Shepard mentions it.

Modifié par emanziboy, 16 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[dreman9999]

Sphynx118 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

At least I am saying that it is only the council that makes this call for a Spectre, not some foreign government with no authority over Spectres.

Unfortunately, things are not as simple as that. As Phoenix points out, being a Spectre does not give one 'God status'. All things are relative; Shepard has immunity from the law so long as he's operating in the interests of the Council and doing so effectively.

In Arrival, Shepard is working as an Alliance Operative out in the Terminus Systems, where he murders 300k batarians all for 'Reapers' which no one believes exist. This was an act done outside of Council interests where (even as Paragon) the Council is very hesitant to give Shepard back Spectre status. Even immunity from the law has its limits; you cannot simply murder hundreds of thousands and expect no repercussions for your actions, especially when you have no reasonable defense. In this case, it's an issue for the Alliance.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that we don't know the full details of the trial. Hackett claims that Shepard must 'answer' for his actions, which may or may not entail punishment. We still have to see how this plays out.

I dont see how saying the council gets the last say with spectres is the same as the "God mode" some people like to rant about. Its not an alliance matter just because the council didnt authorize it.
Saren didnt get authorization from the council to blow up eden prime but they still tried him. Not the turians on Palaven.
Nobody is saying a spectre cant be judged. We are saying it can be judged but only by the appropriate authority.
Im not so sure its an Alliance operation either since it seems more like an "off the record" favor for Hackett

The thing is that the trial isfor a show.......
The bartarians had an alliance agent who they knew was going to blow up a relay and then the agent was broken out andso afterward the relay blew up. They are going to look to the Alliance for answers because they would see it as grounds for war. The alliance does not want that so they put the one person resonsible and still alive on trial so a war does not happen.
And they can do that because the person is their representative. The council can't stop them because the trial is not only not council buisness and the fact that Sheperdwas not on council buisness on the mission but council did not know about Sheperds action untill the trial was announced.

[Il Divo]

Sphynx118 wrote...

I dont see how saying the council gets the last say with spectres is the same as the "God mode" some people like to rant about. Its not an alliance matter just because the council didnt authorize it. 

Because it's not taking into account how actual politics can be conducted. It's not enough to say "Well, the Council always gets the last word". Has a Spectre ever done anything quite like this before? At this point, for it to be a Council matter, they have to step in and say 'Shepard is a Spectre; he's our problem'. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case based on Mass Effect 2.

Saren didnt get authorization from the council to blow up eden prime but they still tried him. Not the turians on Palaven.

Saren was a different situation, in a different political context. Saren was a rogue agent who was operating with no other affiliations. We know Shepard was an Alliance marine, who still has some contacts between Hackett and the Virmire Survivor, and was dealing with Alliance affairs. Saren had gone full rogue, unlike Shepard.

This was also before the battle of the Citadel.

Nobody is saying a spectre cant be judged. We are saying it can be judged but only by the appropriate authority.
Im not so sure its an Alliance operation either since it seems more like an "off the record" favor for Hackett

It still came from an Alliance Admiral and was done in the name of Alliance interests. At this point, if the Council is dead, humans are in charge and can hold the trial anywhere they damn well please. If the Council is alive, Spectre status is simply a formality; they want you gone, hence why they allow you to operate in the Terminus Systems. They don't want you blowing up Batarian colonies, causing hell, etc. This, more importantly, is a human matter.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[Thargorichiban]

Couldn't they easily cover this by having Council representatives there to conduct the trial instead of an Alliance Tribunal?

Or even just a single Council rep stating that the Council is giving permission for the Alliance to try Shepard?

[matt-bassist]

I think the trial is simply a showpiece to ease tensions between the Batarians and Alliance/Council. The Batarians are clearly pissed, and in order to avert a possible conflict, the Alliance and Council have set up this 'mock' trial to make the Batarians ease off.

I mean, with the whole Spectre thing, this really is the only possible reason for the trial. Anderson tells you that while you're a Spectre, you still represent Humanity, which is why they have to put on the trial. You'll probably have a meeting with Anderson, Udina and Hackett before it begins where they apologise for the need for the Trial. Hackett will probably have a line of dialogue where he tells you this would happen (if you've played Arrival).

[dreman9999]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Couldn't they easily cover this by having Council representatives there to conduct the trial instead of an Alliance Tribunal?

Or even just a single Council rep stating that the Council is giving permission for the Alliance to try Shepard?

It would not stop the war with the bartarians from happening. The allaince had to act first to be able to discredit Sheperds actions. If not, even if a trial happens the Bartarian would just call it a farce and the allince would lose support.

[Babli]

Its just plot device. No need to looking for logic. I thought that everyone got used to this stuff after ME2.

EVERYONE TO THE SHUTTLE!!!

[Ryzaki]

emanziboy wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

You get a discount on the citadel for being a spectre, you get to order c-sec around, and you cant be prosecuted by elias lawyer because YOU ARE A SPECTRE not some"half spectre" or something.

Actually, Shepard metions he/she was a former spectre for those first two. "Do former spectres get discounts", "Are you going to run-in a former spectre for obstruction of justice?" And the lawyer never verifies that Shepard is a spectre, he just gets scared off when Shepard mentions it.

Actually it depends on if you had your status returned before you do that quest. If you did instead of saying Former Spectre you just say spectre. 

[dreman9999]

Babli wrote...

Its just plot device. No need to looking for logic. I thought that everyone got used to this stuff after ME2.

EVERYONE TO THE SHUTTLE!!!

Nice, use of logic their......Forgeting the fact that a war with the bartarians now would be bad and all.

[emanziboy]

Ryzaki wrote...

emanziboy wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

You get a discount on the citadel for being a spectre, you get to order c-sec around, and you cant be prosecuted by elias lawyer because YOU ARE A SPECTRE not some"half spectre" or something.

Actually, Shepard metions he/she was a former spectre for those first two. "Do former spectres get discounts", "Are you going to run-in a former spectre for obstruction of justice?" And the lawyer never verifies that Shepard is a spectre, he just gets scared off when Shepard mentions it.

Actually it depends on if you had your status returned before you do that quest. If you did instead of saying Former Spectre you just say spectre. 

Really? Wierd, I always get my spectre status reinstated, but Shepard always says former. I must've done those quests before talking to the council or something.

[Vanaer]

Ah who cares? War criminals only get sentenced to 24 years or so... not like they punish you proportionally anyway.

But still, a Renegade Shep probably has his/her Spectre status revoked; a Paragon shep faces the music voluntarily.

[Sphynx118]

ups

Modifié par Sphynx118, 16 avril 2011 - 04:59 .

[Itkovian]

Spectre status only allows you to operate above the law as much as the council lets you. If they decide to revoke your status, which they have done in the past, then you are subject to prosecution under Citadel Law.

But the fact is we do not know the circumstances of your trial, how you got arrested (or turned yourself in), why, and under which conditions. Bioware is well aware that if Shepard remained a Spectre with the council's support, he would not be tried (or be perfectly within his rights to resist/avoid arrest by the Alliance). Therefore, we can safely assume that the writes have thought of this before.

Itkovian

[Ryzaki]

emanziboy wrote..
Really? Wierd, I always get my spectre status reinstated, but Shepard always says former. I must've done those quests before talking to the council or something.

Mmhmm. I think everything changes except one of the dialgoues...I think it's the endorcement. BW just got lazy with the dialogue or it's a bug. Shep will always say former for some reason. 

But to the C-Sec officer he'll say "you're gonna run in a spectre?" If you have it reinstated beforehand. Same to that lawyer guy. 

[DarthCaine]

He's on trial 'cos he's endangering Human - Batarian relationships since the Batarians are blaming the Alliance. The fact that he destroyed an entire system doesn't really matter

Modifié par DarthCaine, 16 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[Tasker]

 As i've stated in a previous thread.
 
The thing that still gets me is that Shepard shouldn't even really be going to a trial. At least not unless it's as an eye witness and then only if anyone on the normandy reported it.

It was an unofficial off the records mission that only Shepard and Hackett knew about, so even if they know he/she was there - nobody knows what he/she was there for.

Unless a Batarian somehow survived and used the seemingly magical "can tell it's Shepard even when he/she's wearing a helmit" that nearly everyone else in the game has. There was no evidence that Shepard was the one that rescued the doctor.

The only other people that could have told anyone are the people on the asteroid during Shepards 2 day stay there. But, being indoctrinated they were trying to stop the asteroid, so why would they say anything about Shepard being there, it would just bring unwanted attention? 

I suppose any that escaped on the shuttle before the collision could have had evidence, but to be honest, if it were me, my first priority would be to escape.

Technically there's no hard evidence that I can see that would link Shepard to the incident other than that he/she was there and that the Normandy picked him/her up. And if anyone asks what Shepard was doing there, he/she could just say visiting a friend and doesn't know what happened. Or, it's Spectre business so keep your nose out.

Modifié par Orkboy, 16 avril 2011 - 05:09 .