188 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

Filament wrote...

By that standard Isabela the non-mage is also breaking the Cardinal Rules of Magic. You're taking the rule far too literally.

My rogue (without any ability at all) can leap across the battlefield faster than a mage can Teleport. As I've proven many times intercepting mages attempting it. With abilities even faster. So if we're being literal, the cardnial rule isn't being broken. The magic isn't moving them faster than I'm doing with my legs.

[Torax]

While you all are splitting hairs on the being able to teleport around the battle field. What about a Pride Demon from the fade being able to break a Cardinal Rule in awakening by some how severing a spirit from the fade. Maybe that is easier yet the reverse is not true? You can fight over some codex entries all you want in a way to take a stab at game mechanics. Or you can settle on that it's very possible First Enchanter Wensolus was not fully aware at the time of his lecturing that such abilities were about.

Just like Tevinter Magister may have written down that an Eluvian was only for communication if they had not unlocked all it's potential that Morrigan's research and knowledge used to travel through it. Call it a cop out all you want but it isn't like the npcs get all of your spells so it's not the end of the world either way. Trying to analyze the game via the codex after a while seems just like a tactic to discredit the game.

[hoorayforicecream]

 It seems like any sort of discussion rapidly transforms into a legality squabble with certain people.

[Cutlass Jack]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

 It seems like any sort of discussion rapidly transforms into a legality squabble with certain people.

I'd never do that! That's it. I'm suing you for slander.

[IanPolaris]

Torax,

Per DG's own link though, actual violations of the (known) rules of magic should be major (potentially) game changing events. Morrigan's Elluvian at the end of Witch Hunt would qualify. That's a major McGuffin and so it would make sense that perhaps it really could be used for Teleportation.

What we are seeing is every limp-mage in Kirkwall with even an iota of magica ability apparently able to do what no mage had been able to do before. It's stupid, it violates the game lore, and IMO it's borderline disrespectful to the players.

-Polaris

[Nerdage]

IanPolaris wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Magical knowledge isn't *done* by the time of DA, there's all the magic that was lost with the old elven empire for a start, so you can't assume that codex is correct. Speeking of elves, the eluvian allows teleportation, the first enchanter doesn't mention them. Plus the chantry-controlled circle isn't exactly the cutting edge of magical research.

That said, when so many random mages are doing it there's probably an easier workaround, like what David says in the link.

Except what DG says in the link is Fecal Matter from a Bull.  If the mage vanished and then reappeared elsewhere in a time as long (or longer) than it would take to run, I could buy it.  But they don't.  I've SEEN Arcane Horrors, Bloodmages, and even rank amature apostates, vanish from one side of the battlefield and insantly reappear on th other.

That IS Teleportation.  No getting around it.

-Polaris

From the beginning? Any faster than the hermit in DAO?

http://www.youtube.com/

Watch it from 5:05 to 5:35.

Modifié par nerdage, 16 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

 It seems like any sort of discussion rapidly transforms into a legality squabble with certain people.

I'd never do that! That's it. I'm suing you for slander.

That'd never work. You want to sue for libel. Slander is spoken. 

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 16 avril 2011 - 09:31 .

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax,

Per DG's own link though, actual violations of the (known) rules of magic should be major (potentially) game changing events. Morrigan's Elluvian at the end of Witch Hunt would qualify. That's a major McGuffin and so it would make sense that perhaps it really could be used for Teleportation.

What we are seeing is every limp-mage in Kirkwall with even an iota of magica ability apparently able to do what no mage had been able to do before. It's stupid, it violates the game lore, and IMO it's borderline disrespectful to the players.

-Polaris

Yet a rogue can have 2 total ports one of which is of greater distance. They do this with their feet. Why would that be less of a leap to argue about than a mage? I bet the Qunari do it with some new fancy illusion device right? It's splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs. That is what it feels like anyway. I've occasionally been able to see the red circles of stealthed rogues but that is the ones where they were walking and not doing back stab type leaps. I've seen mages teleport. Qunari have used abilities that no other mages have. Should that be allowed if they are using magic that even the guy who wrote the precious "Cardinal Rules of Magic" doesn't know about?

[IanPolaris]

nerdage,

I've never fought the Hermit. It was always just easier to bargin for the acorn. Taking you at your word (your link isn't working), this would be one optional battle that many won't even see over dozens of battles in DAO many of which involve casters (either bloodmages or emissaries) NONE of which show any tendency to teleport.

-Polaris

Edit:  OK two possible (but undestandable major exceptions)...the Arcane Horror is a major boss near the end of the Werewolf Lair.  It can, but only to selected points in an Ancient Elven Ruin using ancient Elven Magic (so this is a major point-point/McGuffin) and the other one is a Major Boss Fight where A Genlock Conjurer can swap places with a Shade (but only swap...not go from A to B on his own).  Even in apparently violation, they at least show unique enough circumstances that the general game lore is honored unlike DA2 where the game lore is flagrantly ignored.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[Nerdage]

Oops, well it's a video called "Dragon Age - Bloody Murder Scenes".

Should be better now. Comes with its own explanation, too.

Modifié par nerdage, 16 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Torax]

Filament wrote...

The Arcane Horror in the Brecilian Ruins does teleport, everyone fights it.

That one is annoying. I've even gone as far as carried Crossbows for the warriors to use to shoot it. Just to end the fight faster...

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

The Arcane Horror in the Brecilian Ruins does teleport, everyone fights it.

It's the only Arcane Horror that does, AND it's using preselected telportation pads (and you can learn the key and predict where he will go) using an Ancient Elven Artifact.  That's a far cry from having every single person with magical ability (except the PC) be able to Teleport.

-Polaris

[Torax]

Filament wrote...

And people without magical ability as well. Again, combat is stylized, just because they move fast doesn't mean it's teleportation. And you haven't addressed my point about whether a Force Mage launching himself like a catapult would constitute teleportation.

The way you describe it is closer to the logic of how Merrill's teleport is supposed to work. Stone's throw.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

And people without magical ability as well. Again, combat is stylized, just because they move fast doesn't mean it's teleportation. And you haven't addressed my point about whether a Force Mage launching himself like a catapult would constitute teleportation.

I believe it knocks you off your feet (or at least stuns you) so no. By the time you regain control, you may as well have run.

-Polaris

[PantheraOnca]

to hop on the bandwagon:

No one, for instance, has found any means of traveling-either over great distances or small ones-beyond putting one foot in front of the other.

would mean that jumping forward with your feet together has not been found by anyone. since i take this to be an impossibility, either the speaker wasn't being excruciatingly literal, or he was wrong.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

And people without magical ability as well. Again, combat is stylized, just because they move fast doesn't mean it's teleportation. And you haven't addressed my point about whether a Force Mage launching himself like a catapult would constitute teleportation.

I believe it knocks you off your feet (or at least stuns you) so no. By the time you regain control, you may as well have run.

-Polaris

You are writing off his concept for a force mage could move themselves cause it would knock them off their feet? As if the mage couldn't control it. Don't get me wrong that even in that instance the odds of every mage also being force mage is a giant leap (pun intended). But it's also not as much of a leap as the Alchemists supposedly getting magic by just drinking potions...

[Darkhour]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Falling out of the sky at the beach IS teleportation........not stealth. So magic is commonly used by non mages and beasts.

Who knew?

They are transporting down from the starship Enterprise.

[Torax]

Also keep in mind that since the first video games were made the main way they make the enemies you fight hard is by letting them "Cheat" the game play rules that the player is bound by. This has been there since the start. So some codex that is more about restrictions to the "player" who is reading it may not be bound to the npcs you fight. That would make it boring. It's also why a boss will get so much more health, armor and so on than a player ever will. This has been a staple of the games and is nothing new. Acting like it's something just Bioware does in DA2? Try every game in existence.

[Nerdage]

Torax wrote...

Also keep in mind that since the first video games were made the main way they make the enemies you fight hard is by letting them "Cheat" the game play rules that the player is bound by. This has been there since the start. So some codex that is more about restrictions to the "player" who is reading it may not be bound to the npcs you fight. That would make it boring. It's also why a boss will get so much more health, armor and so on than a player ever will. This has been a staple of the games and is nothing new. Acting like it's something just Bioware does in DA2? Try every game in existence.

It's more a case of breaking the lore than giving the computer an advantage, it's not really the same. That's the debate, anyway.

Example: You're playing a racing game and the rubber-banding causes your rivals' cars to go faster than perhaps they should, just so they can keep up with you and you're not alone on the track, it keeps it interesting, that's giving the computer an advantage. However, if your rival's boot opens and a jet engine comes out which causes them to fly past you, that's the issue here.

Modifié par nerdage, 16 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[Darkhour]

Torax wrote...

Also keep in mind that since the first video games were made the main way they make the enemies you fight hard is by letting them "Cheat" the game play rules that the player is bound by. This has been there since the start. So some codex that is more about restrictions to the "player" who is reading it may not be bound to the npcs you fight. That would make it boring. It's also why a boss will get so much more health, armor and so on than a player ever will. This has been a staple of the games and is nothing new. Acting like it's something just Bioware does in DA2? Try every game in existence.

DA:O didn't contradict itself so blatantly. Your argument is invalid.

[Torax]

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...