188 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

Torax wrote...

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...

The question is why are we given this codex if it's so badly out of date that all the mages in the Free Marches know not only that it isn't true, but also how to bypass it? We have to assume that it's reasonably contemporary or it would be stupid to present it to us as "the cardinal rules of magic", they must be the believed rules, as they stand at the time, if not absolute truths.

[The Angry One]

Darkhour wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Falling out of the sky at the beach IS teleportation........not stealth. So magic is commonly used by non mages and beasts.

Who knew?

They are transporting down from the starship Enterprise.

Well it *is* called Kirkwall.

[Nerdage]

Filament wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Example: You're playing a racing game and the rubber-banding causes your rivals' cars to go faster than perhaps they should, just so they can keep up with you and you're not alone on the track, it keeps it interesting, that's giving the computer an advantage. However, if your rival's boot opens and a jet engine comes out which causes them to fly past you, that's the issue here.

Well, considering the amount of NPC mages you manage to slaughter, I'm not sure the advantage they get out of this pseudo-teleportation is really on par with rivals in a racing game busting out rocket engines to fly past you. There are countless advantages PC mages have over NPC mages in other ways.

Alright, perhaps the magnitude of the advantage isn't the same, but it's still a case where they player's left thinking "they shouldn't be able to do that, it makes no sense". If you believe they are teleporting, anyway, personally I believe the idea that it's just illusion (see the youtube link I posted earlier).

Modifié par nerdage, 16 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Torax]

nerdage wrote...

Torax wrote...

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...

The question is why are we given this codex if it's so badly out of date that all the mages in the Free Marches know not only that it isn't true, but also how to bypass it? We have to assume that it's reasonably contemporary or it would be stupid to present it to us as "the cardinal rules of magic", they must be the believed rules, as they stand at the time, if not absolute truths.

That was written long ago. Most likey when they were first founding the Circle. They were not allowed to use Tevinter as a basis so I wager they mostly built from scratch. Making rules that fit what they wanted and the Chantry doesn't like change for it's Circles ever. Could this reflect on the Codex that you are "allowed" to read? Sure. Even the research on magic it'self is most likely very limited in a Circle. The apprentices are allowed to practice certain spells that are assumed beneficial but that is all. I doubt Teleportation to vast distances would ever be allowed in a place where you are attempting to house/cage said mages. You are probably better off having them never learn things like phasing through walls and so on. Infact if you tell a mage that it's not possible ever, wouldn't that increase the chances of them never trying to do so?

Call it a cop out if you like. You can kick and scream about how it doesn't match what you see in game. I'm just pointing out the source that is being used to justify what magic can and cannot do that doesn't necessarily agree with what Ancient Elves and or even Tevinter can do. Tevinter and many other forms of magic users in Thedas use extremely different (at times very ancient) forms of magic. Magic that the Circle may never learn about or be aware of. A leap to say all the apostates you saw being able to do it? I didn't see it happening enough to stress over. But I wouldn't look for ways to be angry at the game. Just remember that the Chantry/Circle and even if at times it's First Enchanters could use ways of teaching to aid in containing and limiting it's charges.

A codex given to the players in Origins and again in DA2 does not change that fact. The Circle is as much a sanctuarary as it is a prison.

[Nerdage]

Torax wrote...
That was written long ago. Most likey when they were first founding the Circle. They were not allowed to use Tevinter as a basis so I wager they mostly built from scratch. Making rules that fit what they wanted and the Chantry doesn't like change for it's Circles ever. Could this reflect on the Codex that you are "allowed" to read? Sure. Even the research on magic it'self is most likely very limited in a Circle. The apprentices are allowed to practice certain spells that are assumed beneficial but that is all. I doubt Teleportation to vast distances would ever be allowed in a place where you are attempting to house/cage said mages. You are probably better off having them never learn things like phasing through walls and so on. Infact if you tell a mage that it's not possible ever, wouldn't that increase the chances of them never trying to do so?

Call it a cop out if you like. You can kick and scream about how it doesn't match what you see in game. I'm just pointing out the source that is being used to justify what magic can and cannot do that doesn't necessarily agree with what Ancient Elves and or even Tevinter can do. Tevinter and many other forms of magic users in Thedas use extremely different (at times very ancient) forms of magic. Magic that the Circle may never learn about or be aware of. A leap to say all the apostates you saw being able to do it? I didn't see it happening enough to stress over. But I wouldn't look for ways to be angry at the game. Just remember that the Chantry/Circle and even if at times it's First Enchanters could use ways of teaching to aid in containing and limiting it's charges.

A codex given to the players in Origins and again in DA2 does not change that fact. The Circle is as much a sanctuarary as it is a prison.

Aside from the fact I did say "the chantry-controlled circle isn't exactly the cutting edge of magical research" on page 2, alot of these mages are apostates from the circle, they couldn't just pop over to Tevinter or acient Arlathan to learn some spells. If it were so obvious as to be figured out by so many mages there would probably be a better way to prevent it than just saying "nope, you can't do that, it's impossible", otherwise the circles would've crumbled long ago.

Just to reiterate my stance though, I don't think they are actually teleporting. As far as I know the only teleporting we've seen in DA was the eluvian.

Edit: Although, what are you basing the codex's date on?

Modifié par nerdage, 16 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[Darkhour]

Torax wrote...

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...

As far as anyone can tell the Eluvians were (supposedly) used for communcations and we know they can take you to at least one different dimension.  There is no evidence that they can be used for transportation from one spot on earth to another another spot on earth.  Just like there is no evidence that elves were ever immortal.

[White_Buffalo94]

Deified Data wrote...

The Cardinal Rules of Magic, first put into word by the First Enchanter Wenselus, read as follows:

You must not be under the misimpression that magic is all-powerful. There are limits, and not even the greatest mages may overcome them.
No one, for instance, has found any means of traveling-either over great distances or small ones-beyond putting one foot in front of the other. The immutable nature of the physical world prevents this. So no, you may not simply pop over to Minrathous to borrow a cup of sugar, nor may you magic the essay you "forgot" in the apprentice dormitory to your desk. You will simply have to be prepared.
Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade, your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous.
Finally, life is finite. A truly great healer may bring someone back from the very precipice of death, when breath and heartbeat have ceased but the spirit still clings to life. But once the spirit has fled the body, it cannot be recalled. That is no failing of your skills or power, it is simple reality.

Note the bolded passage, specifically the underlined section.

Recall that most enemy mages in DAII (though not the player character) are capable of casting a spell that does, indeed, enable them to travel great distances, often from one end of the battlefield to the other. This appears to be dissimilar from a Rogue's stealthing (as AoE spells have no effect on the stealthed mage, as they would a rogue), or a Keeper's ability to travel through the earth via underground roots, in that the mage simply casts a spell, and disappears, only to reappear elsewhere.

This doesn't appear to be a retocon, as the Cardinal Rules are still a discoverable codex entry in-game. Is there something going on here that the player doesn't know about? Is the mage perhaps entering the Fade, then exiting, appearing in a different physical location in the "real world"? If so, does it not take incredible amounts of blood/lyrium for this to be possible?

Just curious. Color me guilty of reading a bit too deep into the lore.

You know,  Iwas seriously just thinking about this earlier this morning. When I was in the caves rescuing Feynriel, I noticed a mage disappear from the upper area then reappear right behind my party. Which was funny since I had just read ths codex right before coming to the Wounded Coast.

[White_Buffalo94]

Darkhour wrote...

Torax wrote...

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...

As far as anyone can tell the Eluvians were (supposedly) used for communcations and we know they can take you to at least one different dimension.  There is no evidence that they can be used for transportation from one spot on earth to another another spot on earth.  Just like there is no evidence that elves were ever immortal.

The elves were never "immortal" as we understand it if I remember correctly. They just went into a state of Uthenera when they felt it was their time to leave.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Gaider has stated that "teleportation" spells are actually illusions cast upon an enemy to confuse and disorient them.

So, movement isn't necessarily occurring, only the player character's uncertainty of the enemy mage's physical presence.

I think that it is a time-illusory spell. To us as the players, we may see mage-guy disappear and then reappear in less than a second 20 yeards away. To the mage casting the spell, he/she is perhaps simply altering the flow of space-time to travel great distances in what is a very small window of time according to those seeing it.
Wow, that sounded a bit scientific

[Heehaw]

For those calling it illusion... Why is it they take damage which remains the same even after teleporting?

Just to elaborate: I hit the mage twice, he is half heath, he clearly has half his health missing after teleporting. If it were an illusion like the hermit in Origins, it shouldn't damage them. Illusion magic is a weak argument.

Time altering effects could be used, I suppose, but as far as I know there is no precedent set. So, then why does every crappy mage have the ability? And why don't the Circle mages use it? Why does the player not have it? Why has it never been seen before now?

As for Rogue "teleporting" abilities, the descriptions clearly state they move quickly under stealth. This is especially the case for Vendetta: "As no rogue is as capable as moving under stealth as the Duelist" or some such.

One last thing: IanPolaris is a troll. Stop feeding him.

[Darkhour]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Torax wrote...

You are going over what you see in game versus a First Enchanter from a long time ago who was Lecturing about what he might have known about magic. What he might have believed are the rules that define it all. That doesn't mean he was right. Obviously the Elves long ago invented ways that break the "Cardinal Rules" just because a First Enchanter says the sky is Blue doesn't mean it will always be blue...

As far as anyone can tell the Eluvians were (supposedly) used for communcations and we know they can take you to at least one different dimension.  There is no evidence that they can be used for transportation from one spot on earth to another another spot on earth.  Just like there is no evidence that elves were ever immortal.

The elves were never "immortal" as we understand it if I remember correctly. They just went into a state of Uthenera when they felt it was their time to leave.

According to the dalish that was a choice due to getting bored with mortal life after thousands of years of living. Even then, they might wake up after several centuries and carry on again. There is no proof of that. For all we know they simply died at age 90ish and had eleborate funerals to celebrate their transition to the fade. 

Modifié par Darkhour, 17 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[TJPags]

Lore? We don't need no stinking Lore.

This is DA2.

This. Is. AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

From summoned abominations, to supposedly rare and uniquely Ferelden mabari in Kirkwall's wilderness, to bronze Qunari being pale white, is anyone really surprised that lore is being trampled on?

[Taritu]

As we all know, it's just the buttons of awesome, plus sloppy game design. Rather than figuring out how to stop mages from being ganked by the ridiculous powers they gave mages and rogues in the game, they gave mages complete invulnerability, teleportatin spells and a more powerful AOE spell (the electrical thing) than any PC mage has.

And as far as it goes, my rogue teleports all the time, she isn't just moving fast when she hits vendetta, give me a break. There is no lore in the game that trumps whatever "button of awesome" the game designers wanted to put in. Immersion in DAII is broken all the time.

Modifié par Taritu, 17 avril 2011 - 02:09 .

[Nerdage]

So I've been playing through the game again and none of the mages I've fought teleported instantly, there's always a few second gap between disappearing and reappearing, so invisibility + haste is fair enough. How duelists pull off that crazy backstab thing is another question, but then again "stealth" (ie complete invisibility without magic) never made sense anyway, so it's not really worth worrying about now.

[andraip]

Maybe that "teleportation spell" don't perform actual teleportation, maybe it only slows down time, like if the mage used a mode that slows time for all but him, but he only can move, not attack in this mode. So it it only would appear like teleportation, but actually would be walking.

Edit: Or invisibility and haste as nerdage said

Modifié par andraip, 17 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[Torax]

nerdage wrote...

So I've been playing through the game again and none of the mages I've fought teleported instantly, there's always a few second gap between disappearing and reappearing, so invisibility + haste is fair enough. How duelists pull off that crazy backstab thing is another question, but then again "stealth" (ie complete invisibility without magic) never made sense anyway, so it's not really worth worrying about now.

It never seemed instant to me. Was why I thought it was like splitting hairs over a codex pretty much.

[The Angry One]

Well again if it is an illusion as opposed to teleportation the problem is that every gutter mage in Kirkwall can do it.

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

Well again if it is an illusion as opposed to teleportation the problem is that every gutter mage in Kirkwall can do it.

Maybe demons taught them all how to do it. Since apparently they were talking to like every mage but probably Bethany and Hawke. The demons probably avoided Anders like a pedophile avoids Chris Hansen. Magic 

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Well again if it is an illusion as opposed to teleportation the problem is that every gutter mage in Kirkwall can do it.

That trick would be really handy when you have Templars storming your defensive positions....

oh wait.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well again if it is an illusion as opposed to teleportation the problem is that every gutter mage in Kirkwall can do it.

That trick would be really handy when you have Templars storming your defensive positions....

oh wait.

So would the shield bubble.
I guess those mages realised too late that they dropped the Big Book of Spells Hawke Can't Have outside.

[Vicious]

I forget, doesn't the Genlock Mage in DA:O Denerim's tower also teleport all over the place during the battle?

Still, stupid when every joe mage does it but conveniently forgotten during the actual plot.

[IanPolaris]

Vicious wrote...

I forget, doesn't the Genlock Mage in DA:O Denerim's tower also teleport all over the place during the battle?

Still, stupid when every joe mage does it but conveniently forgotten during the actual plot.

Not exactly.  He swaps places with his various shades.  Not quite the same thing.

-Polaris