126 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

He wants to recover the (reaper?) tech that was used to revive shepard, possibly because it involves his own plan to deal with the reapers and put humanity on top of the rest. It still makes little sense, i hope renegade shepard get to keep cerberus as ally, or eventually shepard takes over cerberus (or convince the illusive man to stop hunting for him/er) and use the resources agaisnt the reapers.

[AlexXIV]

Maybe Cerberus is actually after the new Shadowbroker (Liara) and want Shepard to get to her.

[jbblue05]

AlexXIV wrote...

Maybe Cerberus is actually after the new Shadowbroker (Liara) and want Shepard to get to her.

The new SB is part of Cerberus.
I'm guessing Liara abandons her position as SB because Cerberus want to kill her friend/lover

[lovgreno]

jbblue05 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maybe Cerberus is actually after the new Shadowbroker (Liara) and want Shepard to get to her.

The new SB is part of Cerberus.
I'm guessing Liara abandons her position as SB because Cerberus want to kill her friend/lover

Or perhaps the other way around, the new SB is taking over Cerberus (judging from the files in the SB ship Cerberus is already heavily infiltrated by the SB and not the other way around) . TIMmy panics and tries to get to Liara via Shepard.

Or maybe BioWare hates renegades and Cerb fans and tries to ****** them off.

Well, we shall see eventualy.

[Guanxii]

 My Ideal opening for ME3 as an extension to my earlier post:

Perhaps Cerberus only "want your tail" in the immortal words of Jacob Taylor if you nuked the base? Maybe this is the impact of that decision. I.e. the opening sequence(s) of ME3 differ depending on your decision(s) at the end of both games.

For example, if you saved the Collector Base you are initially affiliated with Cerberus regardless of your council decision, however if you destroyed it you are stuck with the Alliance/Council in the state that you left it.

A prologue with two variations; an alliance/paragon variation and a cerberus/renegade variation set in the day(s) before the Arrival (depending on the outcome of the collector base decision).

Cerberus/renegade variation:

The opening text reads something along the lines of… after failing to report/face charges after being summoned by an Alliance court Shepard has been apprehended by the Alliance military to be tried on Earth as a suspected Cerberus Operative on terrorism charges in the wake of the Alpha Relay incident. The Normandy SR2 has been impounded by the Systems Alliance. Perhaps the Illusive Man narrates a small scene facing the infamous red star.

Shepard is ultimately unapologetically convicted at the trial and imprisoned at an Alliance facility. Cerberus operatives possibly lead by Miranda and Jacob (if alive, otherwise placeholders) infiltrate the facility, rescue Shepard from his cell and battle Alliance troops to recover and escape on the Normandy SR2. The reaper invasion follows the prologue. The rest of the game follows the same basic structure only you occasionally take instructions in the com room from the illusive man.


Alliance/paragon variation:

The opening text states that Shepard has handed himself into Alliance custody, Normandy SR2 impounded, etc. Anderson or Hackett maybe narrate a counter scene.

Shepard is ultimately found not guilty at the trial, meanwhile Cerberus have launched an all out assault on the facility to recover the (stolen) Normandy SR2 and shepard must battle cerberus elite forces with Ash/Kai and James Saunders to stop them leaving with the (new) Normandy.The reaper invasion follows the prologue. The rest of the game follows the same basic structure only you occasionally take instructions in the com room from an Alliance/Council representative such as Hackett, the Council or Udina or even Feron (acting on behalf of Liara as the Shadow Broker).

Modifié par Guanxii, 17 avril 2011 - 12:30 .

[jbblue05]

lovgreno wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maybe Cerberus is actually after the new Shadowbroker (Liara) and want Shepard to get to her.

The new SB is part of Cerberus.
I'm guessing Liara abandons her position as SB because Cerberus want to kill her friend/lover

Or perhaps the other way around, the new SB is taking over Cerberus (judging from the files in the SB ship Cerberus is already heavily infiltrated by the SB and not the other way around) . TIMmy panics and tries to get to Liara via Shepard.

Or maybe BioWare hates renegades and Cerb fans and tries to ****** them off.

Well, we shall see eventualy.

You should read the mission summary of the LOTSB.
Liara is no match for TIM, if TIM wanted her dead she would be

[Volus Warlord]

Reasons why TIM would NOT want to kill Shep:

1.) He's a huge personal investment for TIM, and an investment for Cerberus. ME2 made this very clear.
  - Two years
  - Billions

2.) TIM believed (and may still believe) that Shepard was the best hope for defeating the Reapers.

3.) Shepard has no equal in combat experience against such a wide variety of enemies.

4.) Attempting to kill Shep would very likely cost top-notch resources and personnel.

Reasons why TIM would want to kill Shep:

1.) Vengeance
 -Possibly killing Collector base
 -Turning some of his best against him (Miranda and Jacob)
Overall still a weak reason. It doesn't fit someone as calculating and "all business"-y as TIM.

2.) Indoctrination?
 This would just be gay. I'm sorry. TIM should go out with a bang, not to some stupid overplayed crap.

3.) Parting of Ways (Speculation)
-Sheppy goes back to Alliance
-Starts hunting TIM to serve Alliance
-TIM tries to kill Shep to preserve Cerberus
While I'm sure ratting out Cerberus and TIM would make a hell of a plea deal, I doubt they'd let Sheppy do that in person.  Seems kinda weak overall.

4.) Sheppy's Indoctrinated (Speculation)
-Sheppy becomes Saren 2.0!
-Serves Reapers so that he can negotiate with them, only to be corrupted
-TIM tries to kill Sheppy to prevent Reaper takeover
While I do think this could make an excellent plotline if executed well as  well as make the trilogy more cohesive, I doubt Bioware would make such a thing. You're the one fighting the mislead/corrupted/sympathetic villian, you aren't the mislead/corrupted/sympathetic villian.

5.) Self-Righteous Sheppy (Speculation)
-Sheppy becomes outraged and disgusted with Cerberus activities
-Tries to destroy Cerberus out of a misguided sense of honor/jocky man-code/childish bout of destruction
This move just sucks. Sorry, paragons.


Overall, the cost-to-benefit analysis doesn't line up for TIM wanting to kill Shep, even with speculation. What will tip the balance?

[lovgreno]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Or perhaps the other way around, the new SB is taking over Cerberus (judging from the files in the SB ship Cerberus is already heavily infiltrated by the SB and not the other way around) .

You've got it backwards, kid.

Maybe, maybe not.

I see you dare to use terms like "kid" to get a false sense of superiority while not so bravely hiding behind internet anonymity. Rather boring and pointless as you generalise about a person you nevet met.

[Red Panda]

Shep knows too much=liability to the continued pushes at making Humanity dominant
Cereberus wants you to be a statistical casualty of the Reaper War.

[emmanuelsieyes]

jbblue05 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maybe Cerberus is actually after the new Shadowbroker (Liara) and want Shepard to get to her.

The new SB is part of Cerberus.
I'm guessing Liara abandons her position as SB because Cerberus want to kill her friend/lover

Or perhaps the other way around, the new SB is taking over Cerberus (judging from the files in the SB ship Cerberus is already heavily infiltrated by the SB and not the other way around) . TIMmy panics and tries to get to Liara via Shepard.

Or maybe BioWare hates renegades and Cerb fans and tries to ****** them off.

Well, we shall see eventualy.

You should read the mission summary of the LOTSB.
Liara is no match for TIM, if TIM wanted her dead she would be

Let's look at that mission summary.

Shepard has defeated the Shadow Broker. Eliminate Cerberus information
leaks as Liara T'Soni takes over. The asari's relationship with Shepard
should be watched closely.


The second sentence implies that Cerberus has been leaking false information into the Shadow Broker's network to try and throw the Shadow Broker off guard. The yahg planned to attack Cerberus in about six months.

Now, this raises the question, how does Cerberus know what happened?

What if they tapped the communication feed, broadcast to all SB agents? Liara was able to impersonate the yahg, and the SB agents believed it to be genuine. The logical reason is that EDI/Miranda passed the information on. Everyone on Illium involved with Liara's SB hunt is dead (Nyxeris, Sekat, Tela Vasir).

The only group of people who would know is the Normandy, so therefore, Miranda / the listening devices would have picked up that Liara killed the Shadow Broker, and that the SB ship is on Hagalaz.

However, one of the reasons why Liara needed Shepard to take down the Shadow Broker is because they needed a stealth ship to get to the SB base undetected. Cerberus spent most of their resources on Lazarus Project/SR2. They're not going to be able to pull out another stealth ship. Cerberus couldn't make a stealth attack on Hagalaz.

Furthermore, the SB has better agents. SB had Barla Von - the best money launderer on the Citadel, and Tela Vasir - a Spectre.

I'm not saying that TIM isn't a formidable opponent, however, TIM would be a fool to try and destroy the Shadow Broker. The SB is decades, if not centuries ahead of Cerberus in terms of developing contacts. If push comes to shove, the Shadow Broker is going to have more allies than Cerberus.

[Sajuro]

This may seem very odd, but could it be because TIM thinks Shepard is more useful as a symbol than a soldier? If TIM thought killing Shepard would be a rallying cry for the rest of the Galaxy (or at least humanity) I don't doubt he would do it.

[Valikdu]

The radio said: No Tim, you are the reapers.
And then Tim was a zombie.

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...

TIM wants to kill Shepard because he learned that the Reapers want Shepard alive (which is why they didn't just murder Shepard while he was unconscious for those two days in Arrival)

You know, I actually quite like that theory. I was recently talking to Shandepared on MSN and I've floated this idea with Zulu and Dean, but I have another theory as well:

We know that the Reapers arrive on Earth (presumably at the start given that they practically intercede in Shep's court martial) and we know that Shephard escapes (the Sol System) at some point, however, presumably the lionshare of Reapers will stay on Earth and merrily continue to bombard it etc etc so maybe; TIM works out a faustian deal to buy time for Shephard's actions by actually saying to the Reapers 'hang here; I'll go fetch him' 
In this way, TIM buys time for human resistance on Earth (because he somehow worked out some degree of cease-fire, although neither side trusts each other), and because he sends (smallish) teams against Shephard he makes the appearance of backing up his bargain with the Reapers. 
Now, if our favourite Illusive Man actually surreptiously sends information (leaks?)  to Shephard as well by saying stuff like: "Oh, by the way, Cerberus kill teams will be waiting for you on Noveria" he can successfully give Shephard the information he needs to emerge triumphant, and actually complete his own objectives against the Reapers. 
Bonus points though if TIM can engineer Shephard to arrive at TIM's base to give him extra information, maybe utilise a 'clone' of Shephard (engineered from an offshoot program utilizing shephard's DNA captured either by Alliance databases and/or of course the Lazarus Project), gives Shephard extra intel (such as Reaper movements or whatever) and then gets a Reaper to pick up 'comatose Shephard' (aka; the clone aforementioned) and utilizes the ruse in order to get close to a Reaper himself and destroy it (possibly at the cost of the Illusive Man himself) 
this would I think cause further character ambiguity for TIM (since most people want to kill him regardless, which I think proves that BioWare's stated intention for the Illusive Man failed somewhat) and give him a glorious ass-kicking send off. 

Now, the only problem with this is of course that the Illusive Man dies, and frankly I think TIM is such a delicious character that should be guaranteed to survive the games (even if Shephard him or herself can't). However, such a heroic self sacrifice is the only way I think would be acceptable for a so called 'gray' character to die, and die to the extent that people feel shocked about it.

Thoughts?

[aimlessgun]

TIM isn't after you. Cerberus is after you. Somehow TIM has been betrayed and lost control over much of the organization. He is introduced as a squadmate/LI and you help him get Cerberus back, at the end of which you choose to give him his job back or take over yourself.

Gaining his loyalty unlocks the "Smoke Cigarette" bonus power, which does nothing except make you look super awesome.

[AlexXIV]

Yeah maybe it is just because a) if Shep keeps the base TIM doesn't need him/her anymore so Shep is rather threatening TIM's plans than helping. if Shep destroys the base many of the financiers of Cerberus are unhappy because the base was actually the reason why they gave Cerberus the money to rebuild Shep and the Normandy and now demand blood.

[Arijharn]

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

What if they tapped the communication feed, broadcast to all SB agents? Liara was able to impersonate the yahg, and the SB agents believed it to be genuine. The logical reason is that EDI/Miranda passed the information on. Everyone on Illium involved with Liara's SB hunt is dead (Nyxeris, Sekat, Tela Vasir).

Liara doesn't 'impersonate' the Yahg. In fact, the Yahg's identity (even the fact that he's a Yahg in the first place) is only revealed to those he's just about to kill. Also, the Yahg communicates via an electronic voice scrambler to the rest of his detail.

This is presumably why the Yahg successfully got his position in the first place after he eliminated the previous Shadow Broker (and got away with it).

emmanuelsieyes wrote...
The only group of people who would know is the Normandy, so therefore, Miranda / the listening devices would have picked up that Liara killed the Shadow Broker, and that the SB ship is on Hagalaz.

There's EDI as well, not to mention any number of people on board who could have passed information along, and then there could be Shadow Broker operatives themselves who might not necessarily be Shadow Broker operatives.

As long as the SR-2 is involved, I think it's safe to say that the Illusive Man knows all, in a nutshell.

[omgmahbrain]

I kinda like the idea that TIM has found out what the Reapers want with Shepard. That idea at least makes a modicum of sense, unlike the "durr TIM and co. got indoctrinated" idea that caters directly to the Paragon mindset.

[Stukovkh]

Babli wrote...

Sooo...Reapers are attacking Earth but TIM is wasting time with trying to kill someone who wants to defeat the Reapers?

That makes sense...not.

He is indoctrinated, he sees Reapers offerings as the best thing for human race. True evolution. Submission preferable to extinction.
In short, he is just another bad guy now.

imo.

TIM has 'ALWAYS' been a bad guy, does anybody remember the stuff Cerberus did in ME1?? I never trusted all the play nice BS in ME2 and I was happy to destroy the collector base and tell him to screw off, and it definitly came as no surprise when it was announced TIM was trying to kill Shepard. There are many reasons why, I personally think he planned on turning on shep from the get go. 
Paragon shep destroys Collector base- TIM is angry.
Renegade shep saves collector base and is basically TIMs lapdog- TIM gets what he wants and doesnt need shep anymore. 
Add that to Sheps back with the Alliance now of course he's a liability.
He could also be indoctrinated but I guess we'll see.

[omgmahbrain]

TIM has 'ALWAYS' been a bad guy, does anybody remember the stuff Cerberus did in ME1??

And that stuff makes TIM a "bad guy" how, exactly?

[Babli]

Stukovkh wrote...

Paragon shep destroys Collector base- TIM is angry.
Renegade shep saves collector base and is basically TIMs lapdog- TIM gets what he wants and doesnt need shep anymore. 
Add that to Sheps back with the Alliance now of course he's a liability.

So he will waste resources to kill Shepard who is trying to defeat reapers in the middle of Reaper invasion? That doesnt make sense, its fraking stupid.

As for now, from all we know, there is no reason for TIM to kill Shepard because both of them want to stop the Reapers. But there is still 4th Evolution comic left, another comic will be there also...and one new book as well. So we will probably find out his reason there.

[Guanxii]

Babli wrote...

Stukovkh wrote...

Paragon shep destroys Collector base- TIM is angry.
Renegade shep saves collector base and is basically TIMs lapdog- TIM gets what he wants and doesnt need shep anymore. 
Add that to Sheps back with the Alliance now of course he's a liability.

So he will waste resources to kill Shepard who is trying to defeat reapers in the middle of Reaper invasion? That doesnt make sense, its fraking stupid.

As for now, from all we know, there is no reason for TIM to kill Shepard because both of them want to stop the Reapers. But there is still 4th Evolution comic left, another comic will be there also...and one new book as well. So we will probably find out his reason there.

Unless the whole Cerberus sequence takes place before the Reapers' Arrival . A prologue basically. There's just no way he would spend all his time and money going after Shepard after the Reapers have arrived. If TIM/Cerberus play no significant role it makes sense to kill them off in the prologue/first act before ME3-proper starts basically.

[Fiery Phoenix]

It should be noted that Casey Hudson remarked that this is more complicated than it seems, and that we won't find the true reason behind it until we actually play ME3.

[Redhot_1]

^Isn't that kinda, well, obvious?

[Ahriman]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It should be noted that Casey Hudson remarked that this is more complicated than it seems, and that we won't find the true reason behind it until we actually play ME3.

TIM is one of Walter's favorites, so I hope TIM won't be wasted with boringly blatant twists like revenge, indocrination or "Let's join to Reapers, they'll surely spare us".