61 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

Bible Doctor wrote...

DanZOAR wrote...

but he blew up the chantry! I've been wanting to do that since Lothering!

YEAH MASS MURDER!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!

[Nepenthe87]

frustratemyself wrote...

I've never killed Anders, just can't do it. I also have not yet sided with the templars. I will eventually to see what happens but I sympathise with the mages too much. Meredith's annul the circle because of 1 apostate was too much for me.
Even if I didn't agree with what Anders did, not killing him is the better option (IMO) than making him a martyr for magekind to hold up as an example.

Edit: Also he expects you to kill him and even seems to want it. If you really want to punish him let the healer live with the fact that he is responsible for the deaths of a lot of innocent people. Not just inside the chantry but loyalist circle mages that didn't want to be involved, templars like Ser Thrask that try and find the best peaceful solution and bystanders that get caught in the crossfire.

I agree with this 100%.

In Anders' case death is a release, not a punishment. The true punishment for him is forcing him to live with the sins he committed and every day watching at the death and destruction he has wrought, and forcing him to fix what little bit he can.

choosing the death option just because it seems like the most righteous one doesnt undo what he did and he is in fact released from having to deal with the aftermath of his actions. Killing anders doesnt bring back the people who died by his hands. Forcing him to face that atrocity and attempt to atone for what he has done, rather than letting him go on his terms seems like a better way to attain justice for the people he killed.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 17 avril 2011 - 04:59 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

I've never killed Anders, just can't do it. I also have not yet sided with the templars. I will eventually to see what happens but I sympathise with the mages too much. Meredith's annul the circle because of 1 apostate was too much for me.
Even if I didn't agree with what Anders did, not killing him is the better option (IMO) than making him a martyr for magekind to hold up as an example.

Edit: Also he expects you to kill him and even seems to want it. If you really want to punish him let the healer live with the fact that he is responsible for the deaths of a lot of innocent people. Not just inside the chantry but loyalist circle mages that didn't want to be involved, templars like Ser Thrask that try and find the best peaceful solution and bystanders that get caught in the crossfire.

I agree with this 100%.

In Anders' case death is a release, not a punishment. The true punishment for him is forcing him to live with the sins he committed and every day watching at the death and destruction he has wrought, and forcing him to fix what little bit he can.

choosing the death option just because it seems like the most righteous one doesnt undo what he did and he is in fact released from having to deal with the aftermath of his actions. Killing anders doesnt bring back the people who died by his hands. Forcing him to face that atrocity and attempt to atone for what he has done, rather than letting him go on his terms seems like a better way to attain justice for the people he killed.

That does make sense. But is there any evidence that he shows he is facing up to it in the brief time left in the story before the game ends? I know if you are on the friendship path with him he seems to show no remorse for doing what he did before you kill or release him.

[Oneiropolos]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

I've never killed Anders, just can't do it. I also have not yet sided with the templars. I will eventually to see what happens but I sympathise with the mages too much. Meredith's annul the circle because of 1 apostate was too much for me.
Even if I didn't agree with what Anders did, not killing him is the better option (IMO) than making him a martyr for magekind to hold up as an example.

Edit: Also he expects you to kill him and even seems to want it. If you really want to punish him let the healer live with the fact that he is responsible for the deaths of a lot of innocent people. Not just inside the chantry but loyalist circle mages that didn't want to be involved, templars like Ser Thrask that try and find the best peaceful solution and bystanders that get caught in the crossfire.

I agree with this 100%.

In Anders' case death is a release, not a punishment. The true punishment for him is forcing him to live with the sins he committed and every day watching at the death and destruction he has wrought, and forcing him to fix what little bit he can.

choosing the death option just because it seems like the most righteous one doesnt undo what he did and he is in fact released from having to deal with the aftermath of his actions. Killing anders doesnt bring back the people who died by his hands. Forcing him to face that atrocity and attempt to atone for what he has done, rather than letting him go on his terms seems like a better way to attain justice for the people he killed.

That does make sense. But is there any evidence that he shows he is facing up to it in the brief time left in the story before the game ends? I know if you are on the friendship path with him he seems to show no remorse for doing what he did before you kill or release him.

I wouldn't say he shows NO remorse. He says you can't say anything to him that he hasn't already said to himself, and that his death might set Justice free. I think there's implied remorse there.. it could be he just considers  Hawke a good enough friend he doesn't WANT to say "Look, I'm sorry" because that makes 'justice' alot harder on Hawke. 

My main issue with the "Spare him and make him live with it" line is that....we have NO IDEA WHAT VENGEANCE IS GOING TO DO. Seriously. He blew up a Chantry and there's burning debris over the entire city. Innocents died. People who were just walking around the street died, even if you won't give an excuse to the Chantry which... honestly, I can't comprehend either because I can't see how blowing up a building with people in it who have no idea it's going to happen can ever be considered 'right' or 'deserved'. You can argue that Grand Cleric Elthina and even sisters and brothers in the Chantry are all 'guilty' of what's happening to the mages... I'll disagree but you can argue it... but Bethany, for example, talks about visiting the chantry in Lothering. What if that had been her day to visit the Chantry? Anders didn't pick the time or the day. It's just when things came to a head and he acted. He had NO IDEA who was in that chantry. Elthina could have been dedicating babies. She wasn't, but we know it's something she does. Anders STILL would have chosen that day because it was the best opportunity and he would not have known anyway. Anders is too big of a risk. He is uncontrollable and has proven his violence crosses lines it shouldn't after the situation with the Chantry.

While I'd love to send him to get locked up...how long would locks really work on an abomination? He can't be made tranquil because the existence of Justice in him brings the Fade there. He can't be cut off from it. With Anders, the only choice is to go "Eh, okay, you can live and possibly even go turn on allies in the future because Justice/Vengeance was even willing to kill a young female mage earlier" or you can make the hard call and kill Anders while he's still Anders, and know he won't be responsible for taking more lives. It's hard, and it's tragic, and I'm really sad to see what Anders turned into. But risking his continued downward spiral? I don't see how that can be considered punishment on anyone except the others in the future that he'll one day kill. And he will. There's little doubt about that. 

[BanksHector]

DanZOAR wrote...

Spoilers:

Why does everyone enjoy killing Anders at the end?
I know that he's massively changed and all that, but he blew up the chantry! I've been wanting to do that since Lothering!

I do not like killing him at the end. Its one of the harder choices I have to make. Most times I keep him alive just because I like having a healer. If I did not need a healer, I would enjoy killing him everytime because Grand Cleric Elthina was the only one trying to do the right thing and keep peace. I know many people do not like that she was not picking sides, but I wanted to be able to solve the problem without picking a side because neither side was right. I agreed with parts of both, but I did not agreed with either side enough to be happy about having to side with one. 

Modifié par BanksHector, 17 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[sonoko]

My Hawke always wanted freedom for mages. To kill the only person who actually DO something to free mages (no matter how my Hawke treat his actions) would be very hypocritical and stupid.

[Torax]

 Anders < Murder Knife  

[Plaintiff]

Why would I kill Anders for blowing up the Chantry? If anything, there should be a 'brofist' dialogue option.

[Nimrodell]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why would I kill Anders for blowing up the Chantry? If anything, there should be a 'brofist' dialogue option.

You can actually get that wish granted if you spare him but tell him to go before Gallows and Orsino's madness. He'll appear standing there and he'll say something that is utterly stupid if the whole time you were protecting him as well as mages. He'll tell u - so after all you did choose to defend the mages (which is totally stupid as I said if you were their defender the whole time) and then he'll ask you if his rejoining you would sully your victory... and there goes the most stupid 'brofist' part that diminishes Hawke if Hawke is actual defender and leader - if you choose the stay option, you'll tell him - This is your victory more then it's mine.

Now, I really do have soft spot for Anders, but not having an option to stay with him but also slap him or at least not let him slip out that easily... that's just meh. Tbh, that ending felt like bloody Horizon Shepard/Kaidan/Ashley talk... just stupid. As in real life, I always go by 'love or friendship are most important' things philosophy but in the same time I would never condone such act of selfishness and lack of regret... that's just wrong understanding of being 'paragon'. If you are rival Hawke that will go for saving mages at the end, you get more of proper dialogue options that kinda cover major issues, but as goodie, you're just sheep and that's again generalizing things. One can be 'goodnatured' and still not be blind and condoning in the same time. Til that moment I've seen in this path, game actually did respect diversity of one's complex personality and choices, but that ending was utterly wrong for those that are not blind stupid Hawkes and yet again don't percieve world in black/white terms. Sucha shame... It was eeew to watch such stupid Hakw that actually praises Anders and not having the option to tell him to stay but without condoning his lying to you, distrust and ungratefulness... that scene diminishes both Anders and Hawke greatly. One of the examples of bad writing and putting things again into black/white box. Shame.

[Rifneno]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

And for those of you too consumed by your hatred of organized religion to get it, that's sarcasm.    I find the 'I hate the chantry' and 'i've been wanting to blow up the chantry since DAO posts a little disturbing.  A)You guys aren't distinguishing between yourselves and your character; you understand this is a game right, and you're hating something that doesn't actually exist?

Thanks for the dimestore psychology.  What's the going rate for clueless analysis on a video game forum by a total stranger?

Seriously.  It's amazing how many people think they have the ability to judge other's mental state.

B)I can understand being bothered by the chantry's methods but I don't get the sense you guys are looking at this in the context of the game.  The Tevinter Imperium was a menace to all of Thedas; it still is; they enslaved, they murdered, they experimented, ect ect.  Andraste's rebellion happened because regular people were sick of mages cr*pping all over them.  Now, if Andraste had been as bloodthirsty as some of you purport to be, they would have killed mages outright, and continued to kill them through the ages for the misery they caused.  Instead, they spare them and allow them to develop their talent; making sure they can control it through testing.

Andraste is in the game?  And she has dialogue supporting the Chantry's current methods?  Geez, I must've really missed something, I was under the impression she'd been dead for a thousand years and power-hungry zealots were using a few sentences out of context to condone whatever they felt like doing!

Not pleasant, but it beats being dead because of what your ancestors did.  Modern mages don't engender much sympathy; blood mages running around and killing people; if you're an average guy in Thedas, do you honestly feel sorry for them?  Doubtful.

Because a day in the life of a video game hero living in a city literally built to be a giant demon magnet surely represents an accurate accounting of life in Thedas.  I mean it's not like we saw 2 farmers and 50 dragons despite dragons being so rare they were thought extinct.  Oh no wait, that's exactly what happened.

Then I see this bile posted here; taking pleasure in blowing up a church.

Church implies Christianity.  Now if I was an expert in dimestore psychology, I'd go with the assumption this rant of yours is based in you mixing up a fictional religion with your real life one.  But I'm not, so I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, elthina wouldn't reign in Meredith?  Blow her up!  Really?  So someone doesn't do what you want so they should just die? Gosh, Bioware, why can't I use the murder knife on Aveline because she won't romance my character?

So not being interested in someone is the same thing as turning a blind eye to your underlings committing every crime from rape to genocide?  Is it just me or do the pro-Chantry folk always have to resort to most ridiculous analogies?  Well at least it wasn't the tired old "they're like walking nuclear bombs" one.  That one always makes me laugh.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I find myself confused about exactly what Anders' role is. Is the implication that it's Anders' fault if your friends and Justice's fault if your rivals or is the idea that it's always Justice's fault and Anders just hides it if you're friends.

I was wondering the same thing actually.  I guess it goes in the bin with questions like "why can't we just get rid of Justice like we did Connor's desire demon?", "wait, how did he obtain the most valuable secret in the world?", and let's not forget "how does both the Chantry and the Circle never notice that Kirkwall is more or less the gateway to hell?"

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That does make sense. But is there any evidence that he shows he is facing up to it in the brief time left in the story before the game ends? I know if you are on the friendship path with him he seems to show no remorse for doing what he did before you kill or release him.

I thought he looked plenty remorseful.  Not regretful, but he didn't want to do what he did.  It's like... putting down a terminally sick pet.  You do it even if it breaks your heart because it's what's best for them.  I'm sure someone's going to pick that analogy to pieces so I'll say ahead of time (and be ignored) that I don't mean the Chantry is a sick dog, I mean it as an example of how you can do something you don't want to do, that seems horrible on the surface, but you feel is better in the long run.

Oneiropolos wrote...

My main issue with the "Spare him and make him live with it" line is that....we have NO IDEA WHAT VENGEANCE IS GOING TO DO. Seriously. He blew up a Chantry and there's burning debris over the entire city. Innocents died.

He clearly feels terrible about the innocents caught in the crossfire so to speak.  3 or 4 years before this happens he warns Hawke that he's doing his best to control Justice's impatience but "this impasse cannot last."  I don't really think he'd attack a Chantry again.  He did it once to spark a rebellion.  The rebellion is happening.  There's no need to attack another Chantry.  Now templars on the other hand...

[bleetman]

Rifneno wrote...

He clearly feels terrible about the innocents caught in the crossfire so to speak.  3 or 4 years before this happens he warns Hawke that he's doing his best to control Justice's impatience but "this impasse cannot last."  I don't really think he'd attack a Chantry again.  He did it once to spark a rebellion.  The rebellion is happening.  There's no need to attack another Chantry.  Now templars on the other hand...

But that's the thing, Anders has been losing control of Justice for quite some time. He almost slaughtered a young mage who he rushed to protect, only didn't due to Hawke intervening, and that was years beforehand. I honestly have to wonder how much time Anders has left before Justice subverts him completely, and what happens then?

Modifié par bleetman, 17 avril 2011 - 03:17 .

[nekhbet]

BanksHector wrote...

I do not like killing him at the end. Its one of the harder choices I have to make. Most times I keep him alive just because I like having a healer. If I did not need a healer, I would enjoy killing him everytime because Grand Cleric Elthina was the only one trying to do the right thing and keep peace. I know many people do not like that she was not picking sides, but I wanted to be able to solve the problem without picking a side because neither side was right. I agreed with parts of both, but I did not agreed with either side enough to be happy about having to side with one. 

Actually, she was doing nothing at all. She says many times that she isn't going to step in because the children need to learn by themselves. Anders says a few times that he's going to ask the Grand Cleric to do something to make peace or whatever to fix the situation. Hawke can ask her to do something many times. But she never does, she just sits on her throne at the Chantry while the situation gets worse for the mages and their families. And it's that inaction lasting for six years that is the final straw for Vengeance, and Anders.

That's why I think Elthina is one of the bigger evils in the game. Not intentionally evil, but she holds the keys to peace in her hands and refuses to use them out of some weird principle. She's a lot like the Viscount Dumar, who's also an inept and weak ruler. 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good (wo)men do nothing...

I don't think Anders is the evil force here, though. He's the proverbial camel's back that gets broken after enough inaction. Maybe it could have been someone else. A lot of mages crack all the time under the pressure. Anders just did it with more... ambition. He's already loopy from Justice and his own experiences with the Circles (solitary confinement, anyone?), I'm actually surprised it took 7 years for him to crack big time.

Modifié par nekhbet, 17 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[BanksHector]

I just have to disagree with you on Elthina, but I do not see Anders as the evil force here either. Anders is trying to do what he sees as right. The problem with that is that when Justice turned into vengence it changed Anders for the worst. I believe that Vengence help cloud his view on what he did. I just have a hard time supporting him after what he did. What else would he do after that? Vengence and Anders at the end I see as one and there is no more controlling or holding it back.

Elthina stayed in Kirkwall which showed to me that she cared deeply about what was going on. If she would of left,war would of broke out because there would of been noone to calm down the storm that was coming. I think by not picking a side it help the people of Kirkwall out because that might cause the people that supported her view. Also, I believe she sees the two in charge like her kids, and they may be going throught a hard time right now, but she believes they will work it out. The problem with this is that she does not know the idol is driving one of them mad.

That is just how I saw it, but I could be just seeing what I wanted to see.

Modifié par BanksHector, 17 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[Dante Angelo]

I used to kill him in every playthrough until I realized that by killing him I'm letting him of the hook. The other reason I started letting him live is because I recently noticed how annoying Sebastien can be.Although both of them can be equally annoying

[nekhbet]

BanksHector wrote...

I just have to disagree with you on Elthina, but I do not see Anders as the evil force here either. Anders is trying to do what he sees as right. The problem with that is that when Justice turned into vengence it changed Anders for the worst. I believe that Vengence help cloud his view on what he did. I just have a hard time supporting him after what he did. What else would he do after that? Vengence and Anders at the end I see as one and there is no more controlling or holding it back.

Elthina stayed in Kirkwall which showed to me that she cared deeply about what was going on. If she would of left,war would of broke out because there would of been noone to calm down the storm that was coming. I think by not picking a side it help the people of Kirkwall out because that might cause the people that supported her view. Also, I believe she sees the two in charge like her kids, and they may be going throught a hard time right now, but she believes they will work it out. The problem with this is that she does not know the idol is driving one of them mad.

That is just how I saw it, but I could be just seeing what I wanted to see.

She wouldn't have necessarily picked a side, but looked into what's happening. Done something, anything, when people looked up to her as their leader, desperate for... anything. There's only one scene where she does something and that's telling the little girl Meredith and little boy Orsino to go stand in the corner and think of their actions in public. She didn't react to claims about Sister Petrice when she first heard of them, either. She's "Maker willing" all the way.

But like I said, I don't think she's intentionally evil. She's just an inept leader, unable to recognise a situation that would demand her attention (even if it's just "I'll look into it") when it slaps her right in the face. 

[BanksHector]

Just because we do not see her doing anything does not mean she is not doing anything about it. She could just as easily be doing something but keeping it private. She could have been trying to talk to them often trying to work something out. Just because we do not see everything that is happening does not mean it is not happening. if there was a big problem in your family, you would not tell it to an outsider would you?

I think they did this so that there is no clear cut answer to anything and we have to use our minds on what we believe is going on.

Modifié par BanksHector, 17 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[nos_astra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I find myself confused about exactly what Anders' role is. Is the implication that it's Anders' fault if your friends and Justice's fault if your rivals or is the idea that it's always Justice's fault and Anders just hides it if you're friends.

On the friendship path Anders is in tune with Justice and Anders wants what Justice wants.

Oh, and I killed Anders on my canon playthrough. It made sense for my character. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I deemed it necessary.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[nekhbet]

That's true, we don't see everything. But there's plenty of hints of, for example, the companions doing stuff Hawke doesn't see, but nothing to indicate Elthina is doing anything behind the scenes. Mostly because there's no results. The situation deteriorates over the years. She's still inept, if she's doing something.

Of course, we wouldn't have a plot if she was doing something... but forgetting the meta-aspect, she's not getting the job done.

[nos_astra]

nekhbet wrote...
... but nothing to indicate Elthina is doing anything behind the scenes.

You mean a lack of results means a lack of action?

I don't fault Elthina for having an agenda of her own, mainly keeping the status quo and at best improving on it.
Especially for Anders fans/sympathizers anything short of being actively pro-mage would be seen as insufficient (and in some cases enough to be punished by death).

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[nekhbet]

I assume it means lack of action, judging by her own words. She says she won't poke her nose into the mage/templar affairs. Why would she lie to Hawke? She seems a genuinely good person who'd do her best to inspire hope in her subjects. But whatever it is, inaction or ineptitude, there's no results.

[BanksHector]

I do not believe she is inept at all. I am sure she knew Knight-Commander Meredith for a long time and figured she would be able to deal with it, but she does not know that the idol has drove her mad and Anders blows Elthina up. This could of been the time when she took a stand and figured out that Meredith was going crazy. If I was to blame anyone for being an inept leader it would be the First Enchanter. The mages needed a stronger leader to lead them against Meredith in the debate and trying to deal with them.

Meredith did not want him taking this to Elthina because I think she knows that she would put a stop to it and figure out that Meredith is going to far and something has to be done.

Anders is afraid of Elthina because he knows that she can fix the problem. Ander wanted a revolt, and the only way to have the revolt is to take out the only person that could fix it.

I am not saying any of this is really true, but it is how I look at it when I am making my decision ingame.

Modifié par BanksHector, 17 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[nekhbet]

But Anders actually wanted to resolve the issue with Elthina. It's only in Act III that he changes his mind (or Vengeance makes him change his mind).

[BanksHector]

That is when I am talking about(Act 3), That is why I blame that act on Vengence and not Anders. That is also why I believe he needs to be killed. I think he corrupted Justice to Vengence and Vengence corrupted Anders into what we have in Act 3. I do not believe the Anders that I learned to like and respect, even if I did not agree with on somethings, is still there. If I believe he was, I would have a more difficult time with the choice other then needing a healer.

Modifié par BanksHector, 17 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

nekhbet wrote...

But Anders actually wanted to resolve the issue with Elthina. It's only in Act III that he changes his mind (or Vengeance makes him change his mind).

I recently replayed the middle section of the game and Anders' behavior seems very contradicotry in in Act 2. After Dissent, he's horrified at what he did or almost did to the girl, to the point where he pretty much just gives up. He even considers maybe the Templars are right and the revolution he wants is too dangerous, at least for him in his current state.

After showing him the documents his says that maybe he should speak to Elthina and try to reason with her. Next time I spoke to him, which was a Questioning Beliefs quest available immediately afterward, he suddenly feels better about himself and is planning to overturn the entire Chantry. And since I was his friend he said that I was helping him keep control of himself. That kind of implies that it was all his idea. Or if it wasn't he wasn't even aware of it.

[Nepenthe87]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

I've never killed Anders, just can't do it. I also have not yet sided with the templars. I will eventually to see what happens but I sympathise with the mages too much. Meredith's annul the circle because of 1 apostate was too much for me.
Even if I didn't agree with what Anders did, not killing him is the better option (IMO) than making him a martyr for magekind to hold up as an example.

Edit: Also he expects you to kill him and even seems to want it. If you really want to punish him let the healer live with the fact that he is responsible for the deaths of a lot of innocent people. Not just inside the chantry but loyalist circle mages that didn't want to be involved, templars like Ser Thrask that try and find the best peaceful solution and bystanders that get caught in the crossfire.

I agree with this 100%.

In Anders' case death is a release, not a punishment. The true punishment for him is forcing him to live with the sins he committed and every day watching at the death and destruction he has wrought, and forcing him to fix what little bit he can.

choosing the death option just because it seems like the most righteous one doesnt undo what he did and he is in fact released from having to deal with the aftermath of his actions. Killing anders doesnt bring back the people who died by his hands. Forcing him to face that atrocity and attempt to atone for what he has done, rather than letting him go on his terms seems like a better way to attain justice for the people he killed.

That does make sense. But is there any evidence that he shows he is facing up to it in the brief time left in the story before the game ends? I know if you are on the friendship path with him he seems to show no remorse for doing what he did before you kill or release him.

While I'd love to send him to get locked up...how long would locks really work on an abomination? He can't be made tranquil because the existence of Justice in him brings the Fade there. He can't be cut off from it. With Anders, the only choice is to go "Eh, okay, you can live and possibly even go turn on allies in the future because Justice/Vengeance was even willing to kill a young female mage earlier" or you can make the hard call and kill Anders while he's still Anders, and know he won't be responsible for taking more lives. It's hard, and it's tragic, and I'm really sad to see what Anders turned into. But risking his continued downward spiral? I don't see how that can be considered punishment on anyone except the others in the future that he'll one day kill. And he will. There's little doubt about that. 

I was mostly talking in terms of the game and kirkwall not the epilogue. I'm pretty sure you can kill anders' after you make him help you (not 100% sure). Even so, giving him excatly what he wants immediately after he does his terrorist thing doesnt really seem like justice or a punishment.

Also vengeance/justice is not an inherently evil being, even twisted as it is by Anders'. Deluded, misguided, and narrow-minded yes, but not evil. You're painting him as evil over 1 act of desperation instead of hopelessly misguided. even with Vengeance he never showed signs of being evil, in fact it was quite the opposite.  Should he be allowed to live? probably not. Should he be made to help fix what he has destroyed? I firmly believe yes.

Killing him just seems like it is letting him off too easy IMO. There are punishments far worse than death and he should be made subject to a few before he's given the one he actually wants.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 18 avril 2011 - 05:25 .