182 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravenmyste]

dreepa wrote...

I find teleporting warriors with instant attacks rather conventional. In DAO I had the feeling of a "different game" that stands out on the masses... when I saw meredith flying through the air like a ninja I felt dragged back to standard RPGs I ve played a dozen times.
Dunno, maybe its just me, but I experienced the combat and the dialogues (especially in camp) much more mature than all the generic quests in DA2 (except maybe the qunari part, which was neraly philosophical)....

and the truth comes another hater

[Merced652]

Ravenmyste wrote...

dreepa wrote...

I find teleporting warriors with instant attacks rather conventional. In DAO I had the feeling of a "different game" that stands out on the masses... when I saw meredith flying through the air like a ninja I felt dragged back to standard RPGs I ve played a dozen times.
Dunno, maybe its just me, but I experienced the combat and the dialogues (especially in camp) much more mature than all the generic quests in DA2 (except maybe the qunari part, which was neraly philosophical)....

and the truth comes another hater

Whatever ****** label you wish to apply doesn't diminish his opinion, fanboy. SEE WHAT I DID THERE?

[Byth]

DA2 seems at about the same maturity as DA:O to me. And hey, no multi-boobed monsters or painfully revealing sex scenes like last time .

[Yrkoon]

I don't neccessarily see graphic violence,  nude sex scenes, and needless cussing as "immature". And  likewise, a game doesn't gain any maturity-points in my eyes simply because it chooses  to avoid these elements. 

A game's maturity is determined ultimately by its gameplay and its story. DA:O and DA2 were both mature games overall. Though there is something to be said for DA2's gameplay/combat, which was a bit too kiddy-centric for my tastes.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[Badger8126]

Any kind of censoring is an indication that the audience is thought incapable of dealing with uncensored content.
Having clothed "sex" scenes is a joke, especially when desire demons and the broodmother or even Morrigan show more skin over the natural course of the game.
A mature game has faith that it reaches it's intended audience, Dragon Age is made with the understanding that 13 year old kids will play it and aren't mature enough to handle uncensored content.
The United States still lives in an age where "games are for kids" but made for the approval of soccer moms.

[Rinkusu]

In terms of maturity one can consider the almost philosofical chats with the qunari, those where pretty interesting. nothing else stands out. I saw noting that can be considered darker than DA:O. Both games are mature but DA2 seems lacking.
The dumbness of the sex scenes was annoying but that's just idiotic censorship and i'm fully expecting games to stop having those.
What makes a game a winner of a fail to me is the fun i have playing it, suffice to say that i finished DA2 once because it would be a shame not ending it since i bought it. Waiting on the mod community to make it interesting so i can try it again, otherwise i'm not touching it.
/sarcasm
Blood everywhere, bodyparts flying all over that's ok but sex? hell no
considering the "evolution of the combat system i'm fully expecting a slahs up/down and a jump button in DA3 so we can make the super combos we see in devil may cry/other console games.
/sarcasm off).

(i wholeheartily hope i'm wrong on the combat part but somehow i dont see it beyond them)

[dreepa]

Hehe, I m not a hater. I like DA2, but just not as much as DA:O.

Ontopic:
One thing that just came across my mind:

Somehow I felt, that I am always "The buddy of everyone"... I feel like the worlds attitude towards me is: "Hey Champions, wazzap?" I saved that goddamn city but to me it didnt feel like it felt in the "human noble origin" in DA:O. Thre it felt more like "Sir warden, please condescend to help us" ;-)

[Icinix]

Meh.

The whole Mature Game debate is getting tired. It's a tag line that gets thrown around too much. We define maturity in so many different ways and often don't agree as to what makes something mature.

I think it would be better if the just dropped the tag line and companies focused on making games they think their fans will enjoy rather than trying to artificially insert something to make it more mature or what not.

[ScotGaymer]

Aside from the swearing I dont really see anything in DA2 as "mature" or "18".

Sex is a muted fade to black after a short snogging cut scene (or nothing at all in the ****house).
Swearing is frequent but usually pops up in a sort of unnecessary immature way.
Violence is unrealistic toony jrpg style. The whole body exploding into bits isnt gruesome (not like cutting the head off something and watching the blood spurt out in DAO) its just laughable. Literally, I laughed.
Combat IS actually more realistic not less; the combat moves were actually various martial artists filmed so they could create the anims from it. It might smack of vaguely ridiculous but it IS real.

I dont know what exactly qualifies this game for a "mature" or equivalent tag. It seems to me, and felt to me like a "teen" game.

[Everwarden]

Lumikki wrote...

There is nothing more mature in DA2 or DAO when compared, they are the same. Only reason why people use word "mature" related these games is because they dislike of one of the game and use "not mature" as insult. That's childish behavior. So, it's joke when these people talk about "mature" in both games.

I -strongly- disagree. DAO is far more mature than DA2, if only because it doesn't try and fail to tackle family dynamics and politics. DA2 tries so very, very hard to seem like it's neck deep in family drama and political intrigue, and it just doesn't work. Trying desperately to be 'deep' just by having the 'deep' subjects of family and politics as the main themes strikes me as the definition of an immature narrative. It honestly reminds me of bad movies that try to get 'deep' points by throwing in a rape scene. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 17 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[Nerevar-as]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Aside from the swearing I dont really see anything in DA2 as "mature" or "18".

Sex is a muted fade to black after a short snogging cut scene (or nothing at all in the ****house).
Swearing is frequent but usually pops up in a sort of unnecessary immature way.
Violence is unrealistic toony jrpg style. The whole body exploding into bits isnt gruesome (not like cutting the head off something and watching the blood spurt out in DAO) its just laughable. Literally, I laughed.
Combat IS actually more realistic not less; the combat moves were actually various martial artists filmed so they could create the anims from it. It might smack of vaguely ridiculous but it IS real.

I dont know what exactly qualifies this game for a "mature" or equivalent tag. It seems to me, and felt to me like a "teen" game.

I doubt real martial artists would do things such as the flask throw or cartwheels when a simple throw and stab would work the same and be faster. Nightmare in fact shows what happens if you use such movements, the enemy has time to hit first (despite Origins attack speed) and interrupt.

[ScotGaymer]

Nerevar-as wrote...


I doubt real martial artists would do things such as the flask throw or cartwheels when a simple throw and stab would work the same and be faster. Nightmare in fact shows what happens if you use such movements, the enemy has time to hit first (despite Origins attack speed) and interrupt.

Firstly you have completely missed the point.

Secondly, I dont appreciate the implication that I am a liar.

Thirdly, I was talking about the base combat animations not the talent moves, which are obviously not "real" because in real life people cant toss fireballs from their hands or chop people into a thousand bits with a punch to the face.
THAT is what is unrealistic I admit; but for that sort of thing you HAVE to have a measure of suspension of disbelief; if you dont then you are just an idiot.

[Everwarden]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
 but for that sort of thing you HAVE to have a measure of suspension of disbelief; if you dont then you are just an idiot.

Suspension of disbelief can only carry one so far. A setting still has to maintain some consistency within its own context. 

[ScotGaymer]

Everwarden wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...
 but for that sort of thing you HAVE to have a measure of suspension of disbelief; if you dont then you are just an idiot.

Suspension of disbelief can only carry one so far. A setting still has to maintain some consistency within its own context. 

Obviously. That's self evident. Or it should be lol.

I think DA2 mostly does that; on the whole.

Yes there are niggly bits that make you go "wtf was that?" like the bodies exploding into meaty bits with a punch to the face.

[Nerevar-as]

I meant rogue animations, they are quite over the top even in some normal attacks.

My apologies for whatever reason you thought I was calling you a liar (no sarcasm).

Suspense of disbelief... DA2 failed for me. The rules were set in Origins no matter how hard devs try to change that (which also had it share of problems such as 2H attack speed). To me it was kind of having Matrix-like fights in a sequel to Conan the Barbarian.

[Phaedros]

It was obviously made for an immature audience who wouldn't notice lack of depth in a puddle..

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

There wasn't any censorship in the sex scenes in DA II. There just didn't show the sex. "Fade to black" has been used in movies, television and even novels to depict sex scenes since these mediums were invented.

Censorship would be... say a character taking off their clothes and a big black bar covering their naughty bits. Or a magical brassiere appearing out of nowhere on a character that when actually clothed is known not to wear brasseries. Or if you knew for a fact that there was a more explicit sex cutscene that was removed or modified to the version that's in game. That's censorship. And yeah, I've seen the valentines pictures. No proof that those were a part of the original package, and not just promotional material.

We don't know what they came to the table with originally, and what was "censored" out.

[Maria Caliban]

The main plot of Act 2 was quite mature. Act 1 was typical RPG stuff. Act 3 had the potential to be just as good as Act 2 but obviously was cut short and then they slapped AWESOME BOSS BATTLES on the end.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 avril 2011 - 03:49 .

[lorvincent]

This entire thread serves no purpose. The story of DA:2 was inspired by characters such as Seigfried. The idea behind it is quite simple:

In Ring of the Nibelung, Seigfried's destiny was to inevitably die, and spark Ragnarok, the war of the gods.

In DA:2, Hawke has the same destiny. No matter what course of action you choose, you are doomed to end up in the same situation. Your only option is to pick a side, to effect your immediate environment (Kirkwall). The grand scheme (the world); however, will end up beyond your control. Hawke effects the course of history, and has no choice in how he does. This is one of the most unique ideas ever utilized in a fantasy RPG computer/video game.

I would also like to point out, this game was darker than the first. Your mother gets turned into a "sex puppet" by a crazy mage, using the parts of other women to recreate his lost "beloved", political tensions rise as refugees (both Fereldan and Quinari) show up in Kirkwall, discrimination is a major issue brought to light in the story, characters are more clearly grounded in the story environments allowing for unique actions by these characters to effect the story (unlike in origins where you just happen to invite a bunch of random new characters in your party as you saunter through Fereldan).

Overall, I did enjoy DA:O more. The combat in DA:2 feels great, but the overall gameplay is less effective than its predecessor. The story and characters are a vast improvement, but the environments are bland.

Ultimately, the game may not be as true to its RPG elements as DA:O, but it is CERTAINLY a far more mature game as it deals with a moral ambiguity that, while present in the first game, became the focus of DA:2... or did you have a long chat with the Archdemon about ethics before you killed him?

[Seena]

lorvincent wrote...

.

I would also like to point out, this game was darker than the first. Your mother gets turned into a "sex puppet" by a crazy mage, using the parts of other women to recreate his lost "beloved", political tensions rise as refugees (both Fereldan and Quinari) show up in Kirkwall, discrimination is a major issue brought to light in the story, characters are more clearly grounded in the story environments allowing for unique actions by these characters to effect the story (unlike in origins where you just happen to invite a bunch of random new characters in your party as you saunter through Fereldan).

Overall, I did enjoy DA:O more. The combat in DA:2 feels great, but the overall gameplay is less effective than its predecessor. The story and characters are a vast improvement, but the environments are bland.

Ultimately, the game may not be as true to its RPG elements as DA:O, but it is CERTAINLY a far more mature game as it deals with a moral ambiguity that, while present in the first game, became the focus of DA:2... or did you have a long chat with the Archdemon about ethics before you killed him?

"Sex puppet" ???????   Um.. I totally didn't get that impression.  He created her in the vision of his beloved wife - not his favorite prostitute....

Personally I don't think it's any "darker" really   - about the same imo. (Making a child to be the vessel of a dark god???  -- Pretty dark imo, especially since you have no guarantees about the fate of said child..)

  And I question your conclusion that "moral ambiguity" = dark.  I just don't find that to be the case at all.

[lorvincent]

Seena wrote...

lorvincent wrote...

Your mother gets turned into a "sex puppet" by a crazy mage, using the parts of other women to recreate his lost "beloved"

"Sex puppet" ???????   Um.. I totally didn't get that impression.  He created her in the vision of his beloved wife - not his favorite prostitute....

Personally I don't think it's any "darker" really   - about the same imo. (Making a child to be the vessel of a dark god???  -- Pretty dark imo, especially since you have no guarantees about the fate of said child..)

  And I question your conclusion that "moral ambiguity" = dark.  I just don't find that to be the case at all.

A) I put sex puppet in brackets, mostly as a joke.
 I put beloved in brackets, mostly because I don't call what he did "true love".
C) Your mother was the one in the body talking, not his wife; hence, he made a wife look-a-like, and ignored the fact that the soul and mind was that of your characters mom.  Sounds pretty shallow to me...
D) Lets argue then, that he was going to ensoul the body with his dead wife (assuming this is possible in DA, as there is no proof for this kind of magic yet).  Then why, pray tell, did he want his wife's BODY rather than sticking her in, I don't know, just any body?  The man was obsessed with that picture of her.  I could break into all sorts of psychology babble right here, but its a game.  Screw it.

...

E) What, pray tell, do men and women do when they are in love?  What does Dragon Age clearly include in their "mature" universe?  When characters in Dragon Age are in love, they aren't the chaste maidens and knights of a disney movie.  They bang.

Yes, DA:O had the dark ritual.  Hence the name, its dark.  I never said DA:O didn't have dark elements.

Moral ambiguity does not equal dark fantasy, but it certainly lends itself to it.  If you read the best of the morally ambiguous literature out there, it tends to lend itself to realism.  Since fiction that lacks realism tends to be of a "lighter" variety, "dark" fantasy tends to lend itself to a greater amount of this moral ambiguity (Though no always, as can be made clear with such black-and-white stories as Diablo 1 and 2).

Lastly:

Whether DA:2 is darker than DA:O or not does not matter.  Even if DA:O was darker, it wouldn't change anything about my point.  This thread is about maturity, and the statement "maturity = dark" is not logical falacy. Dark fantasy lends itself to a slightly more mature audience, but there are far more important elements that are found in mature stories.  The elements of the story I mentioned; however, are those of a mature story.  These elements were listed, but I will clarify:

1) Discrimination(eg. elves, Fereldans, mages, blood mages, templars, quinari, even some racist comments against Orlesians, half elves, etc.)
2) Moral ambiguity (eg. The Arishok, the Circle vs. the Templars, the Chantry, Blood Mages, your own party, Hawke, etc.)
3) Yes, the idea that it is "dark" (eg. Your family dies slowly through the story, with a chance of one member other than yourself living, presumably being forced to kill individuals that are not considered innately "evil", demons, etc.)
4) Sexual content (eg. romance options, brothels, etc.)
5) Complex emotions and reasoning behind character motivations (eg. Anders, Isabela, Varric, etc.)
6) Provocative content (eg. reconstructing a the body of a lost love out of multiple individuals, including the main characters mom, presumably for the purpose of reliving past passions)

Some, if not all, of these elements of a mature story could be found in DA:O, to the same, if not a lesser, degree.  Discrimination, moral ambiguity, and the complex emotions and reasoning found behind character motivations played a much bigger role in the DA:2 story.  By all rights, it is a more mature game.  If you did not enjoy it as much, or found the game "watered down", you are not the only one, but there is a different reason for it.  Do not falsely justify opinions with false facts.

[haroldhardluck]

TheStrand221 wrote...
While the perception that gamers are under 18 lingers, this hasn't been true for a very long time.  In 2008, the average American gamer had been playing for 12 years and was, on average, 35 years of age.

Plenty of games can, and do, have content intended for an adult audience and sell well.  The Witcher 2 is likely to be one of these, and you could find numerous examples among the Grand Theft Auto series and other games.

Nevertheless DA2 is rated M which means someone who is legally a child can play it. This means it is the mother who may be buying it and may checking it out. This puts a limit on what "adult" material can be shown in the game.

Harold