182 réponses à ce sujet

[Night Prowler76]

Persephone wrote...

DeathStride wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
There is nothing more mature in DA2 or DAO when compared, they are the same. Only reason why people use word
"mature" related these games is because they dislike of one of the game and use "not mature" as insult. That's childish behavior. So, it's joke when these people talk about "mature" in both games.

Actually, the sex scenes are definitely more "mature" in Origins. I was very disappointed that BW backpedaled on those in 2.

On the other hand, the dialogue is more "mature" in DA2. That I approve of.

Hehehe. I thought the "sex" scenes in ugly bikinis (So Morri wears an entirely non medieval bra all of a sudden?) to be embarassing. Much preferred the fade to black where I could use my dirty imagination.

Why not just have the ENTIRE game in a black screen, then your imagination can really  run wild.

[Night Prowler76]

Rockpopple wrote...

There wasn't any censorship in the sex scenes in DA II. There just didn't show the sex. "Fade to black" has been used in movies, television and even novels to depict sex scenes since these mediums were invented.

Censorship would be... say a character taking off their clothes and a big black bar covering their naughty bits. Or a magical brassiere appearing out of nowhere on a character that when actually clothed is known not to wear brasseries. Or if you knew for a fact that there was a more explicit sex cutscene that was removed or modified to the version that's in game. That's censorship. And yeah, I've seen the valentines pictures. No proof that those were a part of the original package, and not just promotional material.

Dont compare these games to movies and TV, in pretty much any movie love scence there is some nudity and alot of tv shows on cable have nudity as well, the game is RATED MATURE, not PG 13 or Teen, but MATURE.

Its a way to get "around" censorship and controversy, its pathetic really.

[haroldhardluck]

Badger8126 wrote...
Any kind of censoring is an indication that the audience is thought incapable of dealing with uncensored content.
...
The United States still lives in an age where "games are for kids" but made for the approval of soccer moms.

People can be mature and prefer not to be bombarded with nudity and obscenity. People can also be mature and prefer to not be bombarded with gore and violence. In Europe violence, not sex, is the "obscenity" that is often banned in games for kids. Is censoring sex worst than censoring violence? Germany censors anything **** so games such as Castle Wolfenstein are not allowed. Is that better or worst?

Games are now international in sales and people sometimes try to get a foreign version just so they can get the nudity or the violence or the **** themes that are banned in their country. So censorship is not a maturity issue. It is a cultural prejudice issue.

Harold

[Seena]

lorvincent wrote...

Seena wrote...

lorvincent wrote...

Your mother gets turned into a "sex puppet" by a crazy mage, using the parts of other women to recreate his lost "beloved"

"Sex puppet" ???????   Um.. I totally didn't get that impression.  He created her in the vision of his beloved wife - not his favorite prostitute....

Personally I don't think it's any "darker" really   - about the same imo. (Making a child to be the vessel of a dark god???  -- Pretty dark imo, especially since you have no guarantees about the fate of said child..)

  And I question your conclusion that "moral ambiguity" = dark.  I just don't find that to be the case at all.

A) I put sex puppet in brackets, mostly as a joke.
 I put beloved in brackets, mostly because I don't call what he did "true love".
C) Your mother was the one in the body talking, not his wife; hence, he made a wife look-a-like, and ignored the fact that the soul and mind was that of your characters mom.  Sounds pretty shallow to me...
D) Lets argue then, that he was going to ensoul the body with his dead wife (assuming this is possible in DA, as there is no proof for this kind of magic yet).  Then why, pray tell, did he want his wife's BODY rather than sticking her in, I don't know, just any body?  The man was obsessed with that picture of her.  I could break into all sorts of psychology babble right here, but its a game.  Screw it.

...

E) What, pray tell, do men and women do when they are in love?  What does Dragon Age clearly include in their "mature" universe?  When characters in Dragon Age are in love, they aren't the chaste maidens and knights of a disney movie.  They bang.

Yes, DA:O had the dark ritual.  Hence the name, its dark.  I never said DA:O didn't have dark elements.

Moral ambiguity does not equal dark fantasy, but it certainly lends itself to it.  If you read the best of the morally ambiguous literature out there, it tends to lend itself to realism.  Since fiction that lacks realism tends to be of a "lighter" variety, "dark" fantasy tends to lend itself to a greater amount of this moral ambiguity (Though no always, as can be made clear with such black-and-white stories as Diablo 1 and 2).

Lastly:

Whether DA:2 is darker than DA:O or not does not matter.  Even if DA:O was darker, it wouldn't change anything about my point.  This thread is about maturity, and the statement "maturity = dark" is not logical falacy. Dark fantasy lends itself to a slightly more mature audience, but there are far more important elements that are found in mature stories.  The elements of the story I mentioned; however, are those of a mature story.  These elements were listed, but I will clarify:

1) Discrimination(eg. elves, Fereldans, mages, blood mages, templars, quinari, even some racist comments against Orlesians, half elves, etc.)
2) Moral ambiguity (eg. The Arishok, the Circle vs. the Templars, the Chantry, Blood Mages, your own party, Hawke, etc.)
3) Yes, the idea that it is "dark" (eg. Your family dies slowly through the story, with a chance of one member other than yourself living, presumably being forced to kill individuals that are not considered innately "evil", demons, etc.)
4) Sexual content (eg. romance options, brothels, etc.)
5) Complex emotions and reasoning behind character motivations (eg. Anders, Isabela, Varric, etc.)
6) Provocative content (eg. reconstructing a the body of a lost love out of multiple individuals, including the main characters mom, presumably for the purpose of reliving past passions)

Some, if not all, of these elements of a mature story could be found in DA:O, to the same, if not a lesser, degree.  Discrimination, moral ambiguity, and the complex emotions and reasoning found behind character motivations played a much bigger role in the DA:2 story.  By all rights, it is a more mature game.  If you did not enjoy it as much, or found the game "watered down", you are not the only one, but there is a different reason for it.  Do not falsely justify opinions with false facts.

I  honestly don't care enough about this subject to counter your lengthy reply, other than to say I could list any number of children's books that have the majority of your examples of what constitutes a "mature" story.

Also:

Whether DA:2 is darker than DA:O or not
does not matter.  Even if DA:O was darker, it wouldn't change anything
about my point.  This thread is about maturity,

People in this thread are interchanging "maturity" "dark" and "mature rating"- they are not, imo interchangeable.

A game is rated "mature" usually because of language and/or nudity/sex.  Not mature "themes" per se.

And your comment about me "falsely justifyiing opinions with false facts" is way out of line - since I offered no "facts", only my opinion.

Modifié par Seena, 17 avril 2011 - 06:42 .

[Night Prowler76]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Badger8126 wrote...
Any kind of censoring is an indication that the audience is thought incapable of dealing with uncensored content.
...
The United States still lives in an age where "games are for kids" but made for the approval of soccer moms.

People can be mature and prefer not to be bombarded with nudity and obscenity. People can also be mature and prefer to not be bombarded with gore and violence. In Europe violence, not sex, is the "obscenity" that is often banned in games for kids. Is censoring sex worst than censoring violence? Germany censors anything **** so games such as Castle Wolfenstein are not allowed. Is that better or worst?

Games are now international in sales and people sometimes try to get a foreign version just so they can get the nudity or the violence or the **** themes that are banned in their country. So censorship is not a maturity issue. It is a cultural prejudice issue.

Harold

I didnt say to be bombarded with nudity or violence, on one aspect, the game has enemies that explode like bombs when they get killed filling the area with what seems to be like a lake of blood, characters that walk around with blood on them from head to toe, but then when it comes to a sex scene, it more resembles something from an after school special than a "Dark, Gritty Fantasy Game" that apparently DA2 is supposed to be.

This game is supposed to be for adults, not kids, that is my whole point, I do agree that their is a cultural prejudice to some things, I just find it sad that showing a boob is more offensive to most than someones body exploding into thousand pieces.

[Rockpopple]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

There wasn't any censorship in the sex scenes in DA II. There just didn't show the sex. "Fade to black" has been used in movies, television and even novels to depict sex scenes since these mediums were invented.

Censorship would be... say a character taking off their clothes and a big black bar covering their naughty bits. Or a magical brassiere appearing out of nowhere on a character that when actually clothed is known not to wear brasseries. Or if you knew for a fact that there was a more explicit sex cutscene that was removed or modified to the version that's in game. That's censorship. And yeah, I've seen the valentines pictures. No proof that those were a part of the original package, and not just promotional material.

Dont compare these games to movies and TV, in pretty much any movie love scence there is some nudity and alot of tv shows on cable have nudity as well, the game is RATED MATURE, not PG 13 or Teen, but MATURE.

Its a way to get "around" censorship and controversy, its pathetic really.

In "pretty much any movie love scene there is some nudity"?

This statement alone shows your blazing ignorance more than anything else. Again, fading-to-black to depict a love scene has been used in TV and movies since TV and movies were invented. Daytime soap operas on Network TV have more sex scenes per episode than probably any show outside of HBO cable, and those scenes never, ever show nudity. That's because it's on daytime TV. They show as much nudity as when Hawke and Merrill are cuddling post-coitus in the game.

If you really think they were having sex in their clothing in the game, instead of just leading up to the act and fading to black, then I think it's obvious you don't know how it works irl.

But the idea that breasts = maturity automatically is honestly something only an immature person would think. In that case, there are plenty of "mature" titles with plenty of boobage out there for you.

And the idea that the sex scenes in DA II is less censored than the sex scenes in Origins is laughable. Morrigan walks around without any hint of wearing a bra - until you bed her. Then all of a sudden she's wearing a magical bra when she's bumping uglies, and then she takes it off when she's done? That's censorship.

Again, fading to black before any actual sex happens is not censorship. Unless these scenes were altered from more explicit scenes, that is, and so far there's no proof that that's what happened.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 17 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...


Again, fading to black before any actual sex happens is not censorship. Unless these scenes were altered from more explicit scenes, that is, and so far there's no proof that that's what happened.

True, there is no proof.  But I'm hard pressed to NOT believe that there is a degree of "self censorship" at Bioware after the FOX fiasco over the "sex scenes" in Mass Effect...

[taliefer]

fading to black happens in movies, yes...movies rated PG. most movies rated R, the equivalent of M(need to be 17 to see an R movie without a parent), do indeed have actual sex scenes and nudity if its involved in the movie,

[Rockpopple]

Self-censorship can be called "restraint" instead.

Censorship is a very serious issue that I take personally quite seriously. I hate censorship. I think Fox News and what they tried to do with Mass Effect and other games are the scum of the Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare decided that in order not to risk any more of that nonsense they restrained themselves.

That sucks. But it's not censorship... at least not on BioWare's part.

@ taliefer - nude sex scenes are not a requirement for movies rated R, and a movie can be rated R here in Canada (Don't think we have an R rating in Canada anymore...) and the US even without nude sex scenes or nudity. Excessive swearing and violence can be enough to have a movie to be rated R. I'm sure things are different in Europe... and bully for them, I guess.

Also, an 'M' rated game doesn't mean it has to have nudity in it either. "Sexual Themes" and "Sexual Content" is up to what the ESRB defines those things.

I don't know where the notion comes from that if an M rated game doesn't have any nudity, it shouldn't be... what... M rated? Where's the logic in that?

Modifié par Rockpopple, 17 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

Self-censorship can be called "restraint" instead.

It can be, but imo it depends on the impetus for the "restraint".  If the restraint comes from an internal source (ie "Even though I really like the idea, I don't think we should do this because it's in poor taste.") - it's restraint.  When it's from an external source -  (ie "I don't think we should do this because of all the hassle we got from the conservative nuts")  -- it's self censorship.

Censorship is a very serious issue that I take personally quite seriously. I hate censorship. I think Fox News and what they tried to do with Mass Effect and other games are the scum of the Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare decided that in order not to risk any more of that nonsense they restrained themselves.

That sucks. But it's not censorship... at least not on BioWare's part.

I disagree - as per above example.

Modifié par Seena, 17 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Rockpopple]

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. If I was BioWare and I thought, "Gee, if I put in boobies, Fox News is gonna have a field day. Better not do it." That's restraint. What Fox News is doing is a form of censorship by putting that pressure on me.

If I already have the nude scene ready to go, and at the last moment I think of Fox News and get afraid, and I change that scene to something without nudity, that's self-censorship, cuz I'm actually censoring my material.

But I think it's a moot point. Whether there's nudity or not is not really an overwhelming factor in what makes Dragon Age II mature or not. I happen to think Dragon Age II was quite mature. It dealt with themes of prejudice, torture, political machinations, slavery, a more mature romantic sub-plot, etc. Did it hit all of these themes perfectly? Hell no. But they tried.

Overall though I don't think it was any more or less mature than Origins.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 17 avril 2011 - 06:45 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...


Overall though I don't think it was any more or less mature than Origins.

On that we agree.

[taliefer]

i never said that all rated R movies have sex scenes, or every M rated game does. however, if an R rated movies plot calls for a sex scene, it is generally(not always, i will grant) shown, and does not use the fade to black mechanism.

[Moondoggie]

Oh dear another thread spawned to complain that theres no nudity in sex scenes. I'm sure there is plenty of porn to look at on the web if that's your thing. I never felt like the sex scenes in any Dragon Age game needed nudity and let's face it people make mods for it anyway so if you want it you can always just get the mod. The sex scenes for me form such an insignificant part of the game to the point that i don't even bother with them anymore. They were a novelty on the first playthrough but romances aren't that interesting to me beyond the dialogue it spawns so having my warden or Hawke be all nude and going to town on whatever digital woman or man that takes my fancy is all a bit pointless.

Why people care so much about the clothed scenes is beyond me.

[Yrkoon]

Rockpopple wrote...

Self-censorship can be called "restraint" instead.

In the same way that paying taxes can be called  "being patriotic".

Yeah,  It  can, I suppose.  But showing restraint because  there's a specific art direction you want to portray,  and showing restraint because you're afraid you'll be slapped with a sales-killing NC-17 rating (or an exalted march by the morality police) are two very different things.

The question is, did Bioware do the former with the DA franchise?  Or did they do the latter?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[ReallyRue]

DA's storylines and characters (in both games) seem mature enough to me. There are complex moral issues and they deal with serious issues.

To me that's more indicative of maturity than whether or not I got to see a character's bits.

[Seena]

Yrkoon wrote...

In the same way that paying taxes can be called  "being patriotic".

Yeah,  It  can, I suppose.  But showing restraint because  there's a specific art direction you want to portray,  and showing restraint because you're afraid you'll be slapped with a sales-killing NC-17 rating (or an exalted march by the morality police) are two very different things.

The question is, did Bioware do the former with the DA franchise?  Or did they do the latter?

My thoughts exactly. Two distinct situations.

[Persephone]

ReallyRue wrote...

DA's storylines and characters (in both games) seem mature enough to me. There are complex moral issues and they deal with serious issues.

To me that's more indicative of maturity than whether or not I got to see a character's bits.

This. The whole "It's rated M. I wanna see boobies!" is rather immature.

[Seena]

Moondoggie wrote...



Why people care so much about the clothed scenes is beyond me.

I can only speak for myself - but IF this is a "mature" game -  and it's taken for granted that a "mature" adult is playing it - then don't treat the "mature adult" like an 11 year old boy  and show the chars having sex in their underwear. (Unless of course they are Mormons).

Either render the scenes without nudity in a way that doesn't insult my intelligence (ie don't show any "sensitive" part of the body at all- stick with say, face shots)  -  or show a more realistic sex scene.

**** or get off the pot as it were.

Modifié par Seena, 17 avril 2011 - 07:03 .

[Chromie]

Seena wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...



Why people care so much about the clothed scenes is beyond me.

I can only speak for myself - but IF this is a "mature" game -  and it's taken for granted that a "mature" adult is playing it - then don't treat the "mature adult" like an 11 year old boy  and show the chars having sex in their underwear. (Unless of course they are Mormons).

Either render the scenes without nudity in a way that doesn't insult my intelligence (ie don't show any "sensitive" part of the body at all- stick with say, face shots)  -  or show a more realistic sex scene.

**** or get off the pot as it were.

I liked Mass Effect 1's sex scene. It was in your face nudity but it was ok definitely alot better then ME2, Origins or DA2 had to offer. And  don't attack me but have you guys seen Witcher 2 sex scenes? M rating actually means M rating.

[Rockpopple]

Hm. I think it's hard to remove the financial or business side of it. They may have decided that was was both a savvy-business move and something they agreed with to not bother with nudity in their sex scenes this time around. They're not mutally exclusive.

I contend that if they had a more explicit scene going forward, but decided to change it, that's censorship. But if this was their plan from the start, then it's not. I don't even know if "restraint" would be a good word for it. It's just what they decided to do.

They could have looked at Origins and thought, "Look these scenes looked a bit silly, and the whole song while it's going on? Come on. Let's go in a different direction. How about the LI leads them to the bed, and they start making out and they fade to black. Hey, that seems even more mature to me than having Morrigan suddenly slap on a bra while having sex."

I'm not saying I agree with all that. Just an example. lol.

In any case, that would have been an artistic and business solution. Kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

Besides, EA has released titles with a lot more sex and nudity than Dragon Age, and those titles don't have an Ao rating and you can still buy them at Wal-Mart. =P

And lastly, nobody had sex in their clothes in this game! None of that happened. It's a fantasy. It didn't happen with any of the sex scenes in this game, not one. 

... I have to imagine that the response to the ME2 scenes was even more intense than here. At least ME1 had actual nudity in the sex scenes, unlike Origins.

@ Ringo - Once again, with feeling, an M rating doesn't mean you need to have boobies in the game. Go to the ESRB website if you don't believe it.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 17 avril 2011 - 07:10 .

[taliefer]

not saying "boobies or bust"(puns are fun) but there are ways to show a sex/romance scene that doesnt cop out to the fade to black stuff. fade to black is for younger audiences in my mind, the teenage crowd. i dont need full on porn scenes, but something to show the interaction and "moment" the two characters are supposedly having would be nice.

[Seena]

Ringo12 wrote...






I liked Mass Effect 1's sex scene. It was in your face nudity but it was ok definitely alot better then ME2, Origins or DA2 had to offer. And  don't attack me but have you guys seen Witcher 2 sex scenes? M rating actually means M rating.

I thought it was done pretty well also. My Shep is female, and she fell for Liara  - was happy the way they handled the relationship.

And Witcher 2 is on my "to play" list - can't wait! 

Modifié par Seena, 17 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[taliefer]

mass effect 1 scene was great and very well done. i still cant get past the "negative" reaction it got in some parts and found it comical at best. however i guess they have the last laugh since we've had nothing aproaching the quality of it since