182 réponses à ce sujet

[LyndseyCousland]

About as mature as fart jokes.

[Rockpopple]

Mass Effect 1 did it best, I agree wholeheartedly. Stupid damn Fox News.

[Yrkoon]

Rockpopple wrote...
They could have looked at Origins and thought, "Look these scenes looked a bit silly, and the whole song while it's going on? Come on. Let's go in a different direction. How about the LI leads them to the bed, and they start making out and they fade to black. Hey, that seems even more mature to me than having Morrigan suddenly slap on a bra while having sex."

Which is what probably happened, yes.   But  I'd say that neither of those two scenarios is optimal.

  For future releases, I'd suggest some of the latter, mixed with some of the former,  but without a  fade to black OR clothing.


But then again, I think the Sex scenes in Origins would have been much better if they'd have been accompanied by  some "chicka-bow-wow" 70s b-movie music.  Just for the lulz.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. If I was BioWare and I thought, "Gee, if I put in boobies, Fox News is gonna have a field day. Better not do it." That's restraint. What Fox News is doing is a form of censorship by putting that pressure on me.

If I already have the nude scene ready to go, and at the last moment I think of Fox News and get afraid, and I change that scene to something without nudity, that's self-censorship, cuz I'm actually censoring my material.

But I think it's a moot point. Whether there's nudity or not is not really an overwhelming factor in what makes Dragon Age II mature or not. I happen to think Dragon Age II was quite mature. It dealt with themes of prejudice, torture, political machinations, slavery, a more mature romantic sub-plot, etc. Did it hit all of these themes perfectly? Hell no. But they tried.

Overall though I don't think it was any more or less mature than Origins.

Not that I'm a wiki fan - but here's their definition of "self censorship:






Self-censorship is the act of censoring or classifying one's own work (blog, book(s), film(s),
or other means of expression), out of fear of, or deference to, the
sensibilities of others, without overt pressure from any specific party
or institution of authority. Self-censorship is often practiced by film producers, film directors, publishers, news anchors, journalists, musicians, and other kinds of authors.

[Rockpopple]

Right... like I said, if they had a nude scene ready to go, then got afraid of Fox News and then changed it to a non-nude scene, that would be self-censorship. I said that right where you quoted me. We're not in disagreement there.

I just think that if they decided to go in a non-nude way because they thought they couldn't do nudity without it looking silly, and monetary and other artistic reasons, that's not self-censorship.

But I guess by the Wikipedia definition, just about anything anyone does is self-censorship, since we're always thinking of how others might react before we do or say something. If that's the case, you can't say what BioWare did was a bad thing. =P

Modifié par Rockpopple, 17 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

Right... like I said, if they had a nude scene ready to go, then got afraid of Fox News and then changed it to a non-nude scene, that would be self-censorship. I said that right where you quoted me. We're not in disagreement there.

I just think that if they decided to go in a non-nude way because they thought they couldn't do nudity without it looking silly, and monetary and other artistic reasons, that's not self-censorship.

But I guess by the Wikipedia definition, just about anything anyone does is self-censorship, since we're always thinking of how others might react before we do or say something. If that's the case, you can't say what BioWare did was a bad thing. =P

lol erm - ok.

[Rockpopple]

A-ha! Self-censorship on your part. See what I mean? =P

[Sussurus]

Honestly in dialogue and characters I felt like the majority in DA:2 was more mature, at least slightly.
A few moments were very childish and lol like, but over all felt scripted for an adult.
I spent more time listening to npc's and companions than thinking about romancing one.

In DA:O most often your character was a young adult, mage, elf, dwarf, noble..
All felt like the dialogue adjusted for that, whether the Dalish greeting you as child or Winn acting like a grandmother.

Outside of the frenzied combat the general feel to me was more for an adult than a teen.

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

A-ha! Self-censorship on your part. See what I mean? =P

Sure I do, just like I see that Bioware conceptualiized sex scenes with chars wearing underwear all on their own, without ANY concern about what Fox (insert your fav conservative watchdog group here) might say.

I mean - having sex with your underwear on is ---  normal, right? 

Modifié par Seena, 17 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[Sen4lifE]

DA2 not "mature"

Making threads about games not being mature is not mature.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 17 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Tommy6860]

Seena wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

A-ha! Self-censorship on your part. See what I mean? =P

Sure I do, just like I see that Bioware conceptualiized sex scenes with chars wearing underwear all on their own, without ANY concern about what Fox (insert your fav conservative watchdog group here) might say.

I mean - having sex with your underwear on is ---  normal, right? 

You mean Faux News? If you want the "right" news, that's where to get it.

[PirateT138]

Agreed. The art style and combat moved it too far away from a reasonably believable world (which gave the game it's more dark, gritty and mature tone).

The world in Origins felt more believeable for a number of reasons.  DA2's world feels like generic fantasy world #4.

P.S. Ninjas in full plate (Looking at you templar assassins) don't do much to help that; nor do warriors with standing verticals in full plate that would put them at the top of the NFL draft. It's just silly.

Flying people are bad too. (End-boss).

Modifié par PirateT138, 17 avril 2011 - 11:28 .

[lorvincent]

Seena wrote...

I  honestly don't care enough about this subject to counter your lengthy reply, other than to say I could list any number of children's books that have the majority of your examples of what constitutes a "mature" story.

There are more than enough well-written childrens books with a "dark" tinge or moral ambiguity.  Find me a 6+ first readers book with a brothel and maybe I will care what you have to say on the subject instead.

Seena wrote...

Also:

Whether DA:2 is darker than DA:O or not does not matter.  Even if DA:O was darker, it wouldn't change anything about my point.  This thread is about maturity,

People in this thread are interchanging "maturity" "dark" and "mature rating"- they are not, imo interchangeable.

A game is rated "mature" usually because of language and/or nudity/sex.  Not mature "themes" per se.

And your comment about me "falsely justifyiing opinions with false facts" is way out of line - since I offered no "facts", only my opinion.

Yes, I quite agree.  There is a bad habit in this thread of using phrases like "dark" interchangeably with mature.  Also, good point about mature ratings vs. mature themes.

If we consider the game from a theme perspective, it is quite well developed.  In terms of rating, it falls slightly behind Origins.

I also agree with the "fade to black" idea, mostly because I found the pantie wearing bang scenes in Origins completely rediculous to look at.  Its really a personal prefference thing, but I guess they thought a "fade to black" would be more positively received in a wider demographic.

Lastly, about the "fase facts" comment, I was specifically attacking the "lost beloved" comment you made.  I was trying to continue to stress how rediculous it is to assume sex was not on that mage's mind.  I should have been more clear, but also, I tend to have a very provactive and demeaning writing style and often come off as a bigger dick than I intend to be.

Modifié par lorvincent, 18 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Seena]

There are more than enough well-written childrens books with a "dark" tinge or moral ambiguity. Find me a 6+ first readers book with a brothel and maybe I will care what you have to say on the subject instead.

I do believe I said "most" of the themes, not "all". 

And brothels do not a "mature" rating earn.  I am pretty sure without overt sex - adding a brothel to a game would earn it a 'teen" rating, not mature.  Certainly prostitutes, ****houses, etc can be seen on prime time tv.

Oh? And just an fyi there are plenty of books for adolescents that tackle issues of teen prostitution. "Tricks" is one that comes to mind. It's recommended reading age is 14 and up. 

lorvincent wrote...

Lastly, about the "fase facts" comment, I was specifically attacking the "lost beloved" comment you made.  I was trying to continue to stress how rediculous it is to assume sex was not on that mage's mind.  I should have been more clear, but also, I tend to have a very provactive and demeaning writing style and often come off as a bigger dick than I intend to be.

Um I believe the mage says words to those effect - that is why I used the term "lost beloved".  That's what I recall anyway.  I didn't "get" that sex was his purpose - not at all. I didn't say that he did or did not intend to have sex with her, just that as I perceived the scene, it was not his motivation in making the reanimated wife.

And your clarification is appreciated  

Modifié par Seena, 18 avril 2011 - 01:40 .

[CakesOnAPlane]

If 'maturity' means more awkward sex scenes then I'm glad DA2 is 'immature'.

[ScotGaymer]

We aren't saying that DA2 is immature; or at least I wasnt.

I was saying that it didnt and doesnt warrant the "M" or "18" tag that it got because cames with "mature" (ie adult) themes are supposed to be that rated and there is very little in DA2 that is actually all that "adult".

There isnt excessive gore. The bodies exploding is just comical not gorey.
There is excessive swearing, but as I said the swearing is often not contextually correct and often feels like the writers trying to write a "big boy" character. So it results in something that is also comical and not "adult".
There is very little sex or sexual themes. Most of what does occur is actually extremely tame and muted. You see and hear worse in day time soaps.
And violence; while excessive, is actually not any worse than what you find in games like Street Fighter 4 (which is a 12 or E10 or Teen rating).

These are the things that are supposed to be adult; and dont seem particularily adult to me. This game should be a 15/Teen rated game.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 18 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[Seena]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

We aren't saying that DA2 is immature; or at least I wasnt.

I was saying that it didnt and doesnt warrant the "M" or "18" tag that it got because cames with "mature" (ie adult) themes are supposed to be that rated and there is very little in DA2 that is actually all that "adult".

There isnt excessive gore. The bodies exploding is just comical not gorey.
There is excessive swearing, but as I said the swearing is often not contextually correct and often feels like the writers trying to write a "big boy" character. So it results in something that is also comical and not "adult".
There is very little sex or sexual themes. Most of what does occur is actually extremely tame and muted. You see worse in day time soaps.
And violence; while excessive, is actually not any worse than what you find in games like Street Fighter 4 (which is a 12 or E10 or Teen rating).

These are the things that are supposed to be adult; and dont seem particularily adult to me. This game should be a 15/Teen rated game.

I agree - and this issue of "rating" vs "mature themes" disjointed the thread imo as people weren't aruguing the same issue.

I do tho take issue with your distinction between "comical" and adult. (As other have in this thread. The two are not mutually exclusive at all.

I also am suspicious that Bioware agreed to an M rating out of concerns for repercussions by Fox and the right wing media. But that is just conjecture.

Modifié par Seena, 18 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[Rockpopple]

Well the ESRB is their own entity, that plays by their own rules. It's a problem. It's like how ratings for movies are done in America. Does anyone know who the people are that assign ratings to movies? Are they movie experts, with years or decades studying cinema and the effects they have on people young and old?

No, they're a bunch of farmers in Iowa or something that get together, look at a movie for a while and nod their heads in consensus going, "Yup, that's an R-rating"

It's a ridiculous system, but unfortunately it's here to stay.

(Note: I have no problems with farmers in Iowa. I hear they grow great.... corn?)

[Dark83]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Most video games are purchased by a mother for her kids so that 17 age limit is important.

If most parents actually bothered to do parenting, the whole issue would be moot.

[dreepa]

Mmhh...look what this got into

I wasnt even thinking about the sex scenes when I made that thread, but just stumbled on that old DA:O interview where they say the game is "different" "challenging" "dark" and "mature".

Anyone remember Max Payne? I always have to think about that game when I hear those words

DA2 (for me at least) looses a bit of this touch, especially in the later part of the game. Oh and especially in the combat, I think.

[zeejay21]

By mature, do you mean nudity and more violent gore? Or something else?

[Seena]

dreepa wrote...

Mmhh...look what this got into

I wasnt even thinking about the sex scenes when I made that thread, but just stumbled on that old DA:O interview where they say the game is "different" "challenging" "dark" and "mature".

Anyone remember Max Payne? I always have to think about that game when I hear those words

DA2 (for me at least) looses a bit of this touch, especially in the later part of the game. Oh and especially in the combat, I think.

That's the problem, everyone brought their own definition of what "mature" is into the discussion -  : )

[Sainthood85]

I found the Dialogue in Origins to be far more mature.

Why? Well lets compare.

In Origins there are heavy discussions about traditions vs. reform. Understanding the Qun (which sounds like fantasy Communism + Blue and Orange Morality). As well as adhereing to a religion that commits atrocities and genocide but is loved by many and rules over the lands with an (unseen to many) Iron Fist, the Templars.

Then there is the lengthy discussion between Witherfang, the Werewolves and Zathrian. Where Swiftrunner tells the party about how children were tortured, murdered and raped leaving a little girl out in the wilderness to die, only to be saved by her father and then commiting suicide when realizing she bore the child of her attackers.

Then we can compare DA:O Zevhran to Isabella. When Zev made sexual (or homosexual) advances *I* thought it was kind of humorous "Oh Wynne the troubles of travel are so stressful, might I rest my head upon your loving bossom" *Wynne sighs, I chuckle*, though I told him my toon wasnt into that when I am offered. Even him giving Alistair tips was funny "Im not listening to this, we arent having this discussion, lalallala". Isabella just sounds like a complete **** by comparison but I am only into Act 2 atm so maybe she will get better lines than taking whatever I say and making it into something sexual. That gets annoying.


Edit: Off-topic.  I was VERY angry when I signed up to be a merc after arriving in Kirkwall and it JUMPS a full year ahead.   Then I come back to gameplay and there are people who know me for things done off-camera so I have no clue who *they* are but Hawke does, I missed out on possible morality building missions, and I feel cheated out of a chunk of gameplay.

Modifié par Sainthood85, 18 avril 2011 - 06:49 .

[Seena]

Sainthood85 wrote...

 she will get better lines than taking whatever I say and making it into something sexual. That gets annoying.

I'm sure she'd be tickled to death that she annoyed you.   : )

[Dragoonlordz]

Bioware is not mature... But neither are we to be fair.