182 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

Sainthood85 wrote...

I found the Dialogue in Origins to be far more mature.

Why? Well lets compare.

In Origins there are heavy discussions about traditions vs. reform. Understanding the Qun (which sounds like fantasy Communism + Blue and Orange Morality). As well as adhereing to a religion that commits atrocities and genocide but is loved by many and rules over the lands with an (unseen to many) Iron Fist, the Templars.

Then there is the lengthy discussion between Witherfang, the Werewolves and Zathrian. Where Swiftrunner tells the party about how children were tortured, murdered and raped leaving a little girl out in the wilderness to die, only to be saved by her father and then commiting suicide when realizing she bore the child of her attackers.

Then we can compare DA:O Zevhran to Isabella. When Zev made sexual (or homosexual) advances *I* thought it was kind of humorous "Oh Wynne the troubles of travel are so stressful, might I rest my head upon your loving bossom" *Wynne sighs, I chuckle*, though I told him my toon wasnt into that when I am offered. Even him giving Alistair tips was funny "Im not listening to this, we arent having this discussion, lalallala". Isabella just sounds like a complete **** by comparison but I am only into Act 2 atm so maybe she will get better lines than taking whatever I say and making it into something sexual. That gets annoying.


Edit: Off-topic.  I was VERY angry when I signed up to be a merc after arriving in Kirkwall and it JUMPS a full year ahead.   Then I come back to gameplay and there are people who know me for things done off-camera so I have no clue who *they* are but Hawke does, I missed out on possible morality building missions, and I feel cheated out of a chunk of gameplay.

This^ I have to admit I liked Isabela. But many of the convos in DAO were more mature, gritty, and darker than DA2.  The convos in DA2 tended to be more fluffy and fun ( I don't know if this was to make up for not having a camp where you could let off steam and tone down the angst).  Even the convos with the NPCs were sometimes not just fluffy, but downright stupid...returning the remains of a guy's sister and my Hawke tells him he ought to keep better track of it? Seriously?  Wow!

[Mr.House]

CakesOnAPlane wrote...

If 'maturity' means more awkward sex scenes then I'm glad DA2 is 'immature'.

This.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...

CakesOnAPlane wrote...

If 'maturity' means more awkward sex scenes then I'm glad DA2 is 'immature'.

This.

That.

I thought the DA2 love scenes were made of epicness. 

[Kajan451]

Imho,

neither game is mature. Both are Teen games at most. I would love to get a Mature game some day. One that isn't a Porn game, but at least on a level with M rated Movies.

If they can have james Bond being tortured by having some ball and chain flung into his "private parts"... and show people being ripped appart in Saw movies.. or even show the naked breasts of some Actress in these movies... why do i have to put up with censorship in games?

I don't want to see a hardcore porn scene when it comes to it, even softcore annoys me in most movies, because i don't watch them for that stuff. But i think its horribly retarted to have a game count as "Mature" and then basically censor everything.

If its designed to be played by adults... i am sure all of us have seen some naked bodies... maybe have had sex at least once.

I am really tired of games being called Mature when they actually would have a Teen Rating if they would be a movie.

Where are the Mature games?


And...@Cursewords
I actually consider people cursing all the time to be rather immature. Thats like Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Seriously... they did all that cursing and such to convey a sense of "authenticity" but seriously.. i don't really consider it very authentic if every 2nd word is fu** or co** or a*s preferably every 2nd Sentence putting all the words into use.

People being unedjucated enough so they can't find better ways to express theirself than cursing just makes them appear simple and dumb. Yes, sometimes cursing is part of it. No doubt, sometimes its a good way to blow off some steam, but all the time? Thats childish and silly.

Actually... thinking about that Series right now... i can say... thats not really what i had in mind when i just spoke about Mature games.

I think Spartacus went overboard with the whole thing. The whole Gore and Cursing and Sex. I'd prefer it a notch "tamer", mostly because i have a hard time imagining it.

People getting their fingers cut off, and cheering about it, because they watched gladiators? And i don't think the ancient romans defeated the notion of jealousy to have every second woman running around with bare breasts... or people trying to seem edjucated and cultivated by swearing most of their time.

I think that went a bit to far. Personally i think James Bond Movies are more the way i'd like to see it done. It still has some "Sex"... some nude and certainly mature content.. but not to the point where i'd say its to much.


Biowares take about it... on the other hand... the commercials for bodylotion in german evening television do show more skin as most of the sex scenes. Not to mention how silly it is when characters, like Morrigan seem to wear no bra, but all the sudden wear one if you undress them.

The latest Bioware Titles are rather Teen Content than Mature. Nothing wrong about that, mind you... i just would love to get a real mature game some day. Something that would be rated Mature if produced by Hollywood.

[Seena]

Meh, I love Spartacus - it's Raimi "over the top" at it's best!

[ZombiesAteHim]

"realistic combat" would suck, from experience. You want realism in a game... Hawke would die in most of the situations he's thrust into. Shepard would be effed about a thousand times. We play games to escape reality, not feel like we're in a dreary depressing world like the one we live in. I thought the addition of the Plato's Republic discussions with the Qunari were great (aside from the fact that Plato was being ironic, and a society would never last like that). DA2 had more emotional appeal. DA:O = Morrigan's LI story in the first Lothering scene... Mature?

[Kimberly Shaw]

Mature is difficult to define in gaming terms that people would all agree on.

But to me, in my terms, the combat is not nearly as mature in DA2 compared to DAO. Death blows like beheadings in DAO look much more mature than the Itchy and Scratchy cartoon blood bag explosions we get in DA2.

And yes, the sex scenes took a step backwards with DA2. Although I don't really care about that in my games.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Overexaggerated violence, clichée characters, JRPG influences, no immersion and a AWESOME combat system...yeah, seems pretty mature to me.

[Vicious]

awesome spartacus TV show is awesome.

DA2 is highly immature in it's presentation of many things. The final battle of the game being the worst offender that just leaves a bad JRPG taste in your mouth. Why didn't they just have [final boss] sprout angel wings while they were at it???

[Statulos]

You don´t need to make a game with the level of degradation and atrocity of Von Trier´s Antichrist (if Bioware does, I´ll be the first one getting it!), but just a couple sex scenes and people exploding like being hith by a .50 BMG is not exactly my definition of mature.

[Vicious]

The Dwarven Commoner and Dwarven Noble origins were more mature than the whole of DA2.

There, I said it.

[erynnar]

Vicious wrote...

The Dwarven Commoner and Dwarven Noble origins were more mature than the whole of DA2.

There, I said it.

ROFL! True!

[elearon1]

Kajan451 wrote...

 I would love to get a Mature game some day. One that isn't a Porn game, but at least on a level with M rated Movies.


Where are the Mature games?

And...@Cursewords
 Spartacus: Blood and Sand. Seriously... they did all that cursing and such to convey a sense of "authenticity" but seriously.. i don't really consider it very authentic if every 2nd word is fu** or co** or a*s preferably every 2nd Sentence putting all the words into use..

Try playing the Japanese Visual Novel games: YUME MIRU KUSURI :: A Drug That Makes You Dream (deals with some pretty real problems faced by Japanese teens and has a few very disturbing scenes); Kana Little Sister (there is a possible incest storyline in it  - though you can avoid this - but it deals with the idea of watching someone you love die in a very powerful way; I've never known anyone to play this game and not come away bawling); or  Crescendo (about coming of age and the last days of high school before moving on to the real world; full of nostalgia and heart)

Being Japanese VNGs they do all have sex scenes in them, but the stories are powerful and touching.

As for Sparacus ... it gets better after a few episodes.  Really, though, if you want to see an excellently portrayed Roman period show, I'd recommend HBO's "Rome", which does a fantastic job of capturing the feel of the empire while also doing a decent job of getting the historical material mostly right. 

Modifié par elearon1, 19 avril 2011 - 04:03 .

[Kajan451]

Sorry but JVNs are incredible boring. I rather read a real book, than clicking bored through screens and such.

(And about Spartacus.. i have seen all the episodes, even the prequel.. it stays the same)... but since we are trading suggestions for series... i just watched Game of Thrones yesterday. That one seems to have the right amount of nudity and violence to be exactly what i would want. Not to much, but certainly not absent or worse.. censored.

Oh and on that note... i prefere stuff to be absent over censored. Censorship just makes it worse by pushing your nose right at the fact its censored and the game designers or protection instances believe some things shouldn't be seen by an adult. If the game is rated M for adults, then by all means, let it be for adults. After 20 years of videogames... one would believe that there are enough of us gamers well above their 18th birthdays.

[Lumikki]

Kajan451 wrote...

Imho,

neither game is mature.

I agree and disagree.

Both games are just entertaiment, but they both do have some"features" what are more in target of teen age. How ever just because some features are for teen age, doesn't make the game childrens game. It's ment for all age of people, except under the age limit of game.

If they can have james Bond being tortured by having some ball and chain flung into his "private parts"... and show people being ripped appart in Saw movies.. or even show the naked breasts of some Actress in these movies... why do i have to put up with censorship in games?

Better question is do you enjoy seeing these stuff in games and movies?
Does it make you feel like mature as looking them?

I don't want to see a hardcore porn scene when it comes to it, even softcore annoys me in most movies, because i don't watch them for that stuff. But i think its horribly retarted to have a game count as "Mature" and then basically censor everything.

It's not allways censorship, it can also be just not neccassary to show as it doesn't add anything real value in the display. It's about what people want to see and what they don't.

In my opinion what make something mature or not, is the style of the movie or the game. Like realism as style is more mature, but just because something isn't showed, it doesn't make it less mature. It's also what people want to see and what is neccassary for end result. Example would DA2 been more mature game if sex scane would been porn? Hell, no. It would not make the game any better or mature. Because DA2's purpose is not show porn, it's fantasy game as adventure. If there is some soft sex scene or frienship with companions, it's just there to create more emotional connection with companions. Not about to be mature or childish.

In simple way saying if anyone complain about maturity based sencorship, those people aren't mature. If they how ever complain that style of the game is not mature enough (realistic), then that's different deal. But that's also about target customer base choise and what is main purpose of the game.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[elearon1]

Kajan451 wrote...

Sorry but JVNs are incredible boring. I rather read a real book, than clicking bored through screens and such.

(And about Spartacus.. i have seen all the episodes, even the prequel.. it stays the same)... but since we are trading suggestions for series... i just watched Game of Thrones yesterday.

Well, they aren't for everyone ... I'd suggest you've played the wrong games, but they may simply not be your cup of tea.

As for Spartacus, I'd suggest you're opinion is biased ... because the series isn't all the same ... the characters get a lot better, the special effects get toned down a bit, and the story and writing start to actually overshadow the sex and voilence.  That said, these statements are mostly about the main series ... the prequel series was practically porn and while I have nothing against sex in film, they went a bit overboard trying to appeal to a certain demographic with the latest series.

"A Game of Thrones", on the other hand, was way too rushed.  They didnt' spend enough time establishing any of the characters or the story - they painted over the first chapters of the book in such broad strokes that they did very little of it any justic. (and really rushed certain storylines to the point where they lost a lot of impact)  The first three books of this serious were wonderful, (not so much the fourth) and they created in me a very high opinoin of Martin as an author ... but from what I've seen so far (and reviewers suggest it is more of the same until the fifth episode or so) the series is trying to do too much, too fast, and is going to suffer from that as a whole.  

[ZombiePowered]

First off, since what makes something mature or immature is entirely subjective, let me just say my rough guidelines for a game to be considered mature in my books: intellectual engagement with issues and conflicts in the game. If something within the game causes me to become critically and thoughtfully engaged in the world I'm playing in, then that something has a mature quality to it. DA2 certainly has many aspects that achieve this. The various cultural and socio-political conflicts that are encountered certainly had me thinking about the decisions I made, and comparing my in-game experience with various factions with my own personal values on the subjects in question. I actually changed my stance on many issues in the game because of the experience I had with various characters and the events they precipitated. I'd say the vast majority of the story, characters, and events of the game are quite mature in character. The characters are especially mature, since they largely influenced my opinion changes on core conflicts within the game. Even mostly politically neutral characters like Isabela were mature--yes, she talked about sex a lot (but not all the time; her playful demeanor was really a shield to protect her from the harshness of the world), but simply her promiscuity and her reasoning behind it forced me to reconsider whether promiscuity is really a bad thing.

In other areas, DA2 isn't mature, which does not mean it is immature in those areas. Something doesn't have to be mature or immature--it can be neither. Combat, for example, I was quite neutral towards. I found it brutally satisfying, but devoid of the realism necessary to make me think about the brutality of combat. Combat can certainly do that--the snapping of bones, the look on a man's face when you sever his arm, the howling of the wounded--all these things would, in reality, be quite shaking. I'll know a game does combat completely realistically when I cringe upon gutting someone in combat.

Again, however, just because DA2 didn't achieve this doesn't mean it's immature. For something to be immature, it would (assuming the definition of immature is the exact opposite of mature, which is a reasonable assumption) have to disengage me intellectually. I can't think of anything that did this in DA2. I found things that failed to engage me (fetch quests, casual difficulty), but none that actively pushed me away from thinking about a multitude of aspects of the game.

[Tokalla]

Rockpopple wrote...

Well the ESRB is their own entity, that plays by their own rules. It's a problem. It's like how ratings for movies are done in America. Does anyone know who the people are that assign ratings to movies? Are they movie experts, with years or decades studying cinema and the effects they have on people young and old?

Actually, the individuals who rate movies are required to be parents (as the ratings are intended as a guide for parents) with no affiliation to the entertainment industry.

No, they're a bunch of farmers in Iowa or something that get together, look at a movie for a while and nod their heads in consensus going, "Yup, that's an R-rating"

While there is certainly a degree of subjectivity present, there are certain hard rules that will force a film to a minimum rating.  For example:

"Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating."

It's a ridiculous system, but unfortunately it's here to stay.

I wouldn't call it ridiculous.  While I may not always agree with the rulings (Robocop was initially rated X due to excessive violence, but I fail to see significant enough difference between the theatrical and original versions to feel one is less significantly violent), I feel that it isn't as bad as many make it out to be (though I do have my own issues with the present system).

I suggest taking a look through the CARA rules if you'd like to understand what goes into a movie's rating.

http://www.filmratin.../ratings/rules/

[Tokalla]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

We aren't saying that DA2 is immature; or at least I wasnt.

I was saying that it didnt and doesnt warrant the "M" or "18" tag that it got because cames with "mature" (ie adult) themes are supposed to be that rated and there is very little in DA2 that is actually all that "adult".

A mature rating is not given on the basis of how "adult" or "mature" the content would be regarded by an adult, but on the basis of when a culture typically regards an individual as being reasonably capable of handling the content.  Even the most childish of concepts could earn a mature rating with only the addition of a few colorful terms (potentially even as little as one, if used in the right manner).  

There isnt excessive gore. The bodies exploding is just comical not gorey.

That depends on the point of comparison.  Regardless of how comical you might feel it is, is it more gore than Street Fighter IV?  How about Final Fantasy XIII?  Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?  All of those are rated Teen, and objectively have less gore (either humorous or non-humorous).

There is excessive swearing, but as I said the swearing is often not contextually correct and often feels like the writers trying to write a "big boy" character. So it results in something that is also comical and not "adult".

I don't care how well you felt the swearing was implemented.  The presence of swearing is what earns a rating, not how effectively the swearing was utilized.

There is very little sex or sexual themes. Most of what does occur is actually extremely tame and muted. You see worse in day time soaps.

Except that the presence of sexual content in soaps is allowed on the basis of tradition and on the assumption that children of sufficient age to understand the themes should be at school (but mostly tradition).  Soaps also don't contain nearly as much harsh language, violence (on screen at least), or gore.  Though I admit that American culture is prone to being more sensitive to sexual content and themes, while being rather lax when it comes to violence.

And violence; while excessive, is actually not any worse than what you find in games like Street Fighter 4 (which is a 12 or E10 or Teen rating).

Except that Street Fighter IV has a distinct lack of killing.  So that would mean the violence in Dragon Age 2 is notably more severe than that of Street Fighter IV.  You also need to start looking at the whole package and not just the individual parts.  A higher rating can be earned by combining content that on an individual basis would have earned a lower rating.

These are the things that are supposed to be adult; and dont seem particularily adult to me.

Nothing about ESRB ratings has ever been intended as a guideline for consumers to know how "maturely" the content was handled, only to inform about the socially considered safe age for an individual to handle the content.  Some of the most "immature" movies I have seen are rated R (and well deserve the rating).

This game should be a 15/Teen rated game.

I fail to see how something that would clearly require an R rating as a movie should be granted a Teen rating?  If you wish to debate the rating system, that would be a different discussion.  If you wish to discuss how you feel it isn't mature in how the game handled subject matter and themes, that would not involve the game's ESRB rating.

Modifié par Tokalla, 19 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[Seena]

elearon1 wrote...


As for Sparacus ... it gets better after a few episodes.  Really, though, if you want to see an excellently portrayed Roman period show, I'd recommend HBO's "Rome", which does a fantastic job of capturing the feel of the empire while also doing a decent job of getting the historical material mostly right. 

Sam Raimi and Rob Tapert weren't concerned with making Spartacus one iota hisorically "right".   It's just not what they do   

Modifié par Seena, 19 avril 2011 - 01:07 .

[Seena]

It's pretty funny watching people argue the point of maturity - when no one is arguing the same definition of maturity. :happy:

Modifié par Seena, 19 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[Seena]

Tokalla wrote...

I fail to see how something that would clearly require an R rating as a movie should be granted a Teen rating?  If you wish to debate the rating system, that would be a different discussion.  If you wish to discuss how you feel it isn't mature in how the game handled subject matter and themes, that would not involve the game's ESRB rating.

I seriously doubt either game would have earned this an "R" rating if done (exactly as is) as a movie. And filmmakers/editors have as much to say (if not more) about a film's rating by editing the film to "earn" the rating that will reach their target audience.

If it DID earn an R rating most definitely wouldn't be because of nudity or language.   If they chose to render some scenes like Fenris ripping out the heart of that guys chest in very lurid deatil - maybe. But otherwise this could have just as easily earned a PG13 rating.


Edit: In retrospect, Bioware sends very mixed messages about their target audience. And I think that is the frustration for many here.  One thing I do know - if they made a film as is,  shot for an "R" rating, and showed sex scenes with people's underwear on - they'd likely never get film financing again,

Modifié par Seena, 19 avril 2011 - 01:31 .

[Rockpopple]

I wonder why some people are so eager to see the models of Dragon Age 2 bumping uglies in the nude. I mean in Dragon Age: Origins they were clothed and they still looked like barbie-dolls clunking at each other.

I'm pretty sure there are easier way to get your thrills. Even seeing Merrill and Hawke cuddle on the bed was awkward.

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

I wonder why some people are so eager to see the models of Dragon Age 2 bumping uglies in the nude. I mean in Dragon Age: Origins they were clothed and they still looked like barbie-dolls clunking at each other.

I'm pretty sure there are easier way to get your thrills. Even seeing Merrill and Hawke cuddle on the bed was awkward.

Um, I don't think this is the underlying issue. In fact - point blank - it isn't the issue.

Modifié par Seena, 19 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[Rockpopple]

I've read some posts from people in this very thread that make it quite clear that for some people - which is what I said - it is the issue.

Maybe it's not for you, and I salute you for it, but I wasn't talking particularly about you.