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[Mnemnosyne]

In every game, there's going to be things your character is forced to do to continue the plot, and in every game it's likely that at least one of those things is just going to be so vastly out of character for the way you imagine your character to be, that there's no way you can handwave your character doing it.  It just has to be 'plot fairies invaded my brain and forced me to do it' because nothing else makes any sense to you whatsoever.  These moments aren't necessarily bad or a failure on the game's part, but I had one in my most recent playthrough and thought it might be interesting to see what such moments exist for others.

For me, the biggest such moment in DA2 so far is with a Bethany goes to the Circle playthrough.  Now, throughout the entire game it's been strongly shown that Bethany is very scared of the templars and really, really does not want to go to the Circle.  It's pretty much established that a huge part of Hawke's life has been protecting her little sister from the templars and making sure nothing bad happens.  So, at the end of Act I when I come home and Cullen is taking Bethany away, it - and everything that follows in the game - feels like a 'plot fairies' moment.  I couldn't imagine my Hawke, who has spent her life making sure Bethany is safe from the templars, just letting them take her.  Even when Bethany asks Hawke not to cause trouble, I cannot imagine her just playing along, under any circumstances.

Even if I handwaved that particular moment, the part I can't come to terms with is the timeskip afterward and what Hawke has done.  Buying a mansion?  I can't see this Hawke doing anything with that money other than spending every last coin of it to rescue Bethany.  Hiring mercenaries, bribing templars, whatever, I can't see this Hawke giving up and living a comfortable life while her sister is in the Gallows.  She just wouldn't give up until she got her sister out of there.  She'd never buy a house or anything in Kirkwall, since as soon as Bethany is out of the Gallows they'd have to flee the city.

So, like I said, not bad or a failure on the game's part, but for me, this is just something I can't get past.  I cannot play a game where Bethany goes to the Circle and take it seriously, because my Hawke would never under any circumstances allow that to happen and then go on to buy a mansion and live comfortably.  I can accept her becoming a Grey Warden, and I can even accept her dying more easily than I can accept her going to the Circle and Hawke being fine with it.

What moments have the rest of you come across like that?  A point where you just cannot, no matter how you try to imagine it, picture that particular character doing what you're required by plot to do?  Keep in mind though that I don't really feel this should become a 'this should be different' sort of thread, but more sharing key moments that our particular characters just cannot get past.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I have a hard time believing that Thrask would A) ally himself with blood mages in order to oppose the Knight Commander. Or be having his Mage/Templar Coalition kidnap my sister and constantly attack me forcing me to murder them all in order to save my life. He told me he had nothing but respect for me and I'd always tried to foster cooperation so why they assumed I was working for the Knight Commander when almost everything they had accomplished would have been something I'd have supportted was strange. Moreover, I didn't understand why the rest of the Templars still attacked me when Grace just betrayed and murdered their leader and fellow templar right before their eyes.

[Camenae]

When Fenris, actually all of the companions, poured out his life story to me 30 seconds after meeting me. As I was listening to him I was like whoa whoa WHOA, you don't look like the gullible kind but come on, I could be Danarius' sister for all you know. Danarius shouldn't be quite so scary if he still hasn't caught you in spite of you shooting your mouth off at every stranger you come across.

[Cutlass Jack]

I'm still trying to get past DAO Handwaving. In particular my Cousland never would have left his mother in the Origin. Duncan would have had to agree to drag her out of there or knock me out to get me to leave.

Bethany joining the circle didn't bother me at all on that level because at multiple points she mentions how life would have been easier if she had. She hated that her whole family was on the run just because of her. She never really wanted to be an apostate, the parents just took the choice from her.

The biggest moment of DA2 for me was not stopping Anders before the bomb went off. I figured out it was a bomb purely from the ingredient list, and even if I hadn't, I should have been at least able to warn the Grand Cleric, whom I liked. I liked Anders too, so equally annoyed I couldn't just slap some sense in him.

[Satyricon331]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The biggest moment of DA2 for me was not stopping Anders before the bomb went off. I figured out it was a bomb purely from the ingredient list, and even if I hadn't, I should have been at least able to warn the Grand Cleric, whom I liked. I liked Anders too, so equally annoyed I couldn't just slap some sense in him.

As I recall, you can warn Elthina, but she simply says something like apostates have long tried to take her down so she isn't too worried.

My plot point was when Anders collected the ingredients and asked Hawke to trust him tried to manipulate Hawke by leveraging his feelings.  My Hawke wouldn't help and they fought - and I thought he broke up with Hawke.  Then the next thing I know, Anders is moving in and telling the dog he won't be able to get on the bed anymore.  It didn't work for me - except to teach me that a broken-heart symbol is necessary to break up.

[Isaidlunch]

Hearing that Meredith already requested the Rite of Annulment, going over her superior's head in the process, before the Chantry goes boom and not being able to do anything about it.

[Andraste_Reborn]

My third Hawke was super-efficient about raising the cash necessary to go on the Deep Roads expedition, and didn't trust Flemeth as far as he could throw her dragon form. So after handing Bartrand the fifty sovereigns, he had zero motivation to do anything other than wait for the expedition to be ready to leave.

Except you can't fail to complete the quest. Keeping Flemeth's amulet, selling it, or throwing it away are not available options. If you want to get that Deep Roads expedition moving, you have no choice but to take it to Marethari, however out of character it might be for your Hawke to do so. After that you have to hang around for even longer so you can find lost apostates, kill some Tal'Vashoth who never did anything to you, and escort stray Sarebaas around the sewers. My Hawke just wants to go kill darkspawn and get rich!

Modifié par Andrastee, 17 avril 2011 - 07:56 .

[Torax]

@Andrastee it's funny reading your post had me just realize something. That besides Varric only the 2 companions you are forced to get to enter the deep roads are the the same ones who move in with Hawke. Meanwhile the 2 companions you can miss if you don't adventure/quest to find them are the ones who don't move in as love interests. Anders are Merrill are forced to be recruited. Meanwhile Isabela and Fenris are not forced to proceed in the plot.

Had to edit. Sometimes I slip up Leliana and Isabela in my head. Them fiesty rogues.

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[Deztyn]

Companions being foisted on us.

Playing a devout Andrastian who would never tolerate an association with blood mages and abominations despite being pro-mage? Well here, have Merrill and Anders, yes you are stuck with them unless you do something heinous to make them hate you. Yes, even if you never talk to them or take them with you, they're still treated as if they were your buddies all along.

At least with Merrill you can justify it: she's misguided, she's not especially dangerous, Hawke wants to steer her onto a better path, rather than destroy her or ignore her. Anders makes no sense though, he outright tells you he has little control of himself, describes Vengeance as a madness that takes over him, and does it in your first real conversation before you can reasonably pretend Hawke's gotten attached him.

[Plaintiff]

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

[Fieryeel]

I can't accept the fact that the templars could completely ignore me being a blood mage and casting forbidden magic in front of them.

[Super_Fr33k]

"The story made me do it" is one of those things that is such a fundamental limitation of CRPGs, it's gotten hard for me to identify all the times it occurs... I mean, no scripted experience can predict or humor every possible choice a person can make.

But just handing Bethany over to the Templars is certainly one thing I would've put up a fight over, if the game had let me.

But here's a bigger point: Once Hawke makes it rich, it can easily become implausible for him to remain in Kirkwall. The expedition gives him enough treasure to leap back into the city's upper class. This means he has enough money to just move somewhere else entirely. Once Qunari land, and once it seems mages and Templars are warring, why not go somewhere else?

At times with my rogue Hawke, I wonder: why can't I just let Meredith and Orsino tear each other apart? It may not be noble, and I certainly can enjoy playing freedom fighter, but it's a totally realistic response the game denies us. Also realistic would be to turn on both of them sooner. Once you realize the immoral behavior on both sides, it becomes hard to defend either. BW might as well as have given us a third, "I'm whooping both your asses to give Kirkwall some real peace and quiet" option... Aveline would've liked it, I bet.

The only other choice on my wishlist is this (for the moment): I wish we could force Aveline and Donnic together more quickly, without enduring her marathon of awkwardness. As soon as my character figured out Aveline had a crush on him, he would've told Donnic exactly what was going on. And you know what? Everyone would've been happier, and I could've gotten on with my important Hawke-type stuff.

[TobiTobsen]

Koyasha wrote...

In every game, there's going to be things your character is forced to do to continue the plot, and in every game it's likely that at least one of those things is just going to be so vastly out of character for the way you imagine your character to be, that there's no way you can handwave your character doing it.  It just has to be 'plot fairies invaded my brain and forced me to do it' because nothing else makes any sense to you whatsoever.  These moments aren't necessarily bad or a failure on the game's part, but I had one in my most recent playthrough and thought it might be interesting to see what such moments exist for others.

For me, the biggest such moment in DA2 so far is with a Bethany goes to the Circle playthrough.  Now, throughout the entire game it's been strongly shown that Bethany is very scared of the templars and really, really does not want to go to the Circle.  It's pretty much established that a huge part of Hawke's life has been protecting her little sister from the templars and making sure nothing bad happens.  So, at the end of Act I when I come home and Cullen is taking Bethany away, it - and everything that follows in the game - feels like a 'plot fairies' moment.  I couldn't imagine my Hawke, who has spent her life making sure Bethany is safe from the templars, just letting them take her.  Even when Bethany asks Hawke not to cause trouble, I cannot imagine her just playing along, under any circumstances.

Even if I handwaved that particular moment, the part I can't come to terms with is the timeskip afterward and what Hawke has done.  Buying a mansion?  I can't see this Hawke doing anything with that money other than spending every last coin of it to rescue Bethany.  Hiring mercenaries, bribing templars, whatever, I can't see this Hawke giving up and living a comfortable life while her sister is in the Gallows.  She just wouldn't give up until she got her sister out of there.  She'd never buy a house or anything in Kirkwall, since as soon as Bethany is out of the Gallows they'd have to flee the city.

So, like I said, not bad or a failure on the game's part, but for me, this is just something I can't get past.  I cannot play a game where Bethany goes to the Circle and take it seriously, because my Hawke would never under any circumstances allow that to happen and then go on to buy a mansion and live comfortably.  I can accept her becoming a Grey Warden, and I can even accept her dying more easily than I can accept her going to the Circle and Hawke being fine with it.

What moments have the rest of you come across like that?  A point where you just cannot, no matter how you try to imagine it, picture that particular character doing what you're required by plot to do?  Keep in mind though that I don't really feel this should become a 'this should be different' sort of thread, but more sharing key moments that our particular characters just cannot get past.

Same problem here. I have already raged in some other threads about that. It's just hilarious. Especially if the people start to say "You can't just attack templars! It's the Knight-Captain, everybody would hunt you!". Oh really? How many templars are there in that scene. Cullen. That's it. Probably there are some more outside of the house. Not really a problem for Hawke and for god's sake, that is no situation where you make a rational decision! The templars are coming to take your sister to a prison above the mouth of hell. Stepping aside because they would hunt you for putting up resistance? I don't think so.
It get's even more ridiculous if you think about the fact that Hawke has the chance to attack a full templar patrol, lead by Knight-Lieutenant Karras, to save some random ass mages from Starkhaven he doesn't even know. And when they come to take Bethany his only reaction is apathy? I lol'd hard.

"We'll take her to the circle."
"OVER MY DEAD BODY!!"
*Hawke steps politely aside*

I hate that part. Sure Bethany... "don't make a scene". Why should Hawke? Maybe because he/she sacrificed the last 19 years of his/her life for you? Why would he possibly make a scene?

/rant

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 17 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[theangryllama]

Plaintiff wrote...

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

Eh see i did one like that and can see it at the end. Mine started off mage friendly then just got bombarded by blood mages left right and centre with the 2 of 3 escapees mad and killing people, the whole mother incident and then the capture of your sister followed by the big kaboom makes him realise that while not all mages are bad the kirkwall circle has officially lost its marbles.

[Suron]

the entire story, as a mage, is idiotic. ESPECIALLY the handwaving by both Cullen and Meredith. Cullen doesn't even acknowledge it when you're casting fireballs RIGHT NEXT TO HIM...and the BIGGEST ANTI-MAGE ZEALOT in Kirkwall, whom is a major factor in the whole mage/chantry war, because she clamps down on ANY mage who sneezes wrong and illegally puts them to death and/or tranquility..just handwaves you being a mage.

it's stupid as hell.

[Lord Gremlin]

The story as a mage... Really. It's full of WTF moments, not the least of which is Carver joining templars. Especially no adequate reaction from Hawke - who's just been betrayed.

[fusilero1]

Plaintiff wrote...

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

Possibly the same reason that Carver sides with the Templars.

[IanPolaris]

fusilero1 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

Possibly the same reason that Carver sides with the Templars.

Which is what?  I can't see any good reason why Carver would join the Templars especially when it later becomes clear he lied about his apostate brother/sister to do so (a point that Meridith reminds him of in Act 3).

-Polaris

[Suron]

IanPolaris wrote...

fusilero1 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

Possibly the same reason that Carver sides with the Templars.

Which is what?  I can't see any good reason why Carver would join the Templars especially when it later becomes clear he lied about his apostate brother/sister to do so (a point that Meridith reminds him of in Act 3).

-Polaris

Because 95% of the mages you meet in Kirkwall ARE bloodmages/abominations.  The "real" templars DO NOT SUPPORT MEREDITH.  The reasoning behind helping Meredith makes more sense then Anders reason for murdering innocents.  Even a Mage Hawke can argue that annulment is the lesser of two evils..and/or go in to save who he can (which you can do.)  If you play through as Templar-side, it's obvious just ALL BUT MEREDITH favor only rooting out the "evil" mages and to save the ones they can and TURN AGAINST MEREDITH at the end to help you fight her..even BOWING to you at the end.  Ad to that the leader of the "good" mages turns out NOT to be and resorts to blood magic and becomes an abomination..once again showing even he is "evil."

Actually there's more reason to join the Templars then there is to join the Mages...even if you are generally pro-mage.

that enough? I could go on.

[ashez2ashes]

In Act II when I couldn't tell Isabella that I'd come with her to kill that Castillion dude if she let me keep the book. The place never needed to be sacked at all, and its what most reasonable mildly intelligent people would have suggested.

[Augustei]

My Hawke giving a damn about his mother and getting all cut up about her death, My hawke was an @ss and didn't care about anyone but himself

[Asdara]

Lots of things... I try to make it fit though because I want it all to fit... it's just a little clunky /sigh

Mage Hawke ignored doing magic with apostate Anders constantly in tow... that was the one that really got to me and I couldn't just wave it off. "Hi Commander Meredith, gonna rescue some mages from the tower today, see you this afternoon about that hunting apostates mission you're sure to have!" ... /wrists.

[Rifneno]

"Hmm.  This evidence is disturbing to say the least.  It's like Kirkwall is damned.  Literally.  This entire city is a massive Tevinter blood rune designed to...  who knows?  Armageddon?  Even if I can't prove these notes are reliable, all the Chantry or Circle would have to do is compare the number of demonic happenings here to any other Circle in Thedas.  This place is a powder keg waiting to blow.  I must warn someone!

...

Nah, it's been a long day.  I'll just see how this plays out." 

[Cutlass Jack]

Suron wrote...

Actually there's more reason to join the Templars then there is to join the Mages...even if you are generally pro-mage.

Sadly quite true. But  doesn't qualify as a 'handwave' in either direction since the choice is the players and there's compelling reasons for both choices.

Being force to make that choice at all was more the handwave. All the options to pick a neutral path were removed by Anders and the Neutral group doing truly stupid things (like leaping on your blades and kidnapping the relative of someone who'd be willing to join them otherwise)

[Maria Caliban]

IanPolaris wrote...

fusilero1 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I can't comprehend how Hawke, any Hawke can side with the templars in Act 3 or in any other quest where it's an option. He's from a family of apostates, might be an apostate himself, and has spent his whole life on the run, defending himself and/or his sister from the templars, doing everything they can to avoid the circle. But as soon as he gets to Kirkwall, he randomly decides the templars "aren't so bad", despite all evidence to the contrary?

Possibly the same reason that Carver sides with the Templars.

Which is what?

He's a ******.

"My brother/sister is a mage and makes me feel inadequate so I'm going to join a group that hunts down, imprisons, and murders mages."